Is there a Heaven in the DMC world?

[moseslmpg]

This isn't a VS thread.

Why did you vote Other in the poll?

 

[Kittn]

I know your opinion doesn't matter more than anyone else's, but I would still like to understand what you use to support it. It seems like your basic argument is that: We have no evidence of God, or angels, or their action in the world, but it is not impossible that they exist, therefore they exist.

You have enough evidence to say that they do in that the people believe it. In this case, it's just not enough for you to agree. But that doesn't make the argument invalid or shaky as you put it in response to me.

Why? Because this is a videogame, a fictional world. In fiction, the only way to conceal is to reveal the concealment. If something is not revealed or implied, then it doesn't exist. Even if God couldn't be shown, there would be metaphorical ways to indicate his existence, like a booming voice form the sky, or angels. None of those are present.

Do you really think that? You seem to have a very defined set of rules that every single thing must follow or it is wrong. Including Fiction. Because this is not so. In fact, what you said doesn't make a whole lot of sense at all. "Conceal something by revealing the concealment?" What fun would that be? Where would the surprise be? If you already knew 'something is up with this' all the time, you'd never be surprised by anything. So I disagree. "If something is not revealed or implied, then it doesn't exist." Is incomplete. Rather. "If something is not revealed or implied, then it doesn't exist - to the reader/viewer YET."

However. Since the characters in this work of fiction are mentioning God, I'd say it actually is implied. But I would not be surprised if you disagree.

God in Himself I'm certain transcends logic and understanding, but I only mean an ultimate force of good in the DMC world. If He is really good, then where has He been during all these struggles with demons?

If God will be shown in the series, then I think he will be pretty pathetic given his absence so far. He would have to be apathetic to human suffering, or powerless to stop it.

This clearly comes from a modern belief among some that God must cater to the whims and every need of the suffering masses. That believing in Him makes your life easy and free of pain. Not so. Sometimes when you're down and out and crying "Why, Oh WHY did you LET this happen to Me?!" the answer is "Because its going to make you stronger." But eh. Everyone needs someone else to blame, right?

Look at Nero. "I always wondered why you made my arm this way." Is the equivalent of the above with a bit less drama. He was lucky enough to get his answer in the same game.

Idly, Moses, your way of responding within quotes is for me, very difficult to read for some reason. It also makes it impossible to quote those responses using the quote button. Just saying. For some reason my eyes want skip right on over your responses within the quote boxes. But I'll try to respond to your earlier post. Hope its not too messy:

((But, Berial also makes a mention of God in the singular (A human, posing as God?) And he wouldn't of been referencing Sparda. Also Dante seems to acknowledge a higher power though not particularly interested or disinterested in whoever it may be: he also wouldn't have Sparda in mind. So, even if its not the same religious setup as the vanilla Judaic type, there at least appears to be some kinda Divine Good Guy that people call God.))

I don't think that there appears to be a God at all, just a belief that a single God may exist or an idea of it. God exists in DMC as a concept, that much I concede, but what is at issue is if an actual being, God, exists.

That you don't think there appears to be one is obvious. However, this is you choosing not to believe even what Berial said. And he said it when he thought no one was listening. Clearly he believes in this guy's existence. And likely...

((Even fictional folk usually have reasons for their beliefs based on an event or experience at one point or another. At least, this is what I'd like to think.))

It is most likely that their reasons are wrong though. They could believe because they feel lonely or don't want to think they have to face demons alone. Angels and God in DMC could be an invention of humans to inspire them during the early war against demons, etc. I'm sure they have a reason for their beliefs, but I don't see how that makes their beliefs true.

...none of these reasons would apply to Berial who is not human, and therefore not prone to human whimsy. He'd have no reason to invent God. And if these are the reasons for God to exist in the human brain, then he'd also have every reason to deny God's existence.

((Well, considering the average DMC-verse resident believes something along the lines of a Heaven and God & Crew existing, I'd have to say "Where there's Smoke, there's Fire." Just because we players haven't been presented with rock solid evidence of God or Heaven in the games, doesn't mean it does not exist, or that its only an idea.))

Except, using your analogy, there isn't even smoke.

I'd say there most definitely is, given what I've and others have said so far. But I'm not surprised that this is your response. I'm guessing smoke to you would be the booming voice from the heavens business that you mentioned?

And lastly:

OK, so your position is based on the opinions of the characters in DMC. Interesting. By assuming that their belief necessitates the existence of God and angels, you are effectively giving them world shaping power and omniscience, i.e. they know more about their own world than we do as outside observers.

It's strange, given your usual agnostic stance, that you would opt for the shakier position.

EDIT: What is vanilla Judaic God?
EDIT2: For people who believe God or angels exist, how do you justify them not intervening to help Dante or fight demons? Provide a theodicy or sorts, if you will, explaining why these angels aren't just as evil in their idle observation of human suffering.

"My usual agnostic stance?" My my. Heh. No Comment.

Shakier position: not in the least. It makes every bit of sense that the characters in their world know more about it than we do. You seem set on the idea that I was only referring to the human element, even though I mentioned a very specific non-human one. And no, I was not giving them any sort of world shaping powers. Quite the opposite actually. Something shaped -them- to believe as they do, which is what I thought I said. I really don't see how you took it as the other way around at all. :/

By vanilla Judaic God I meant without the New Testament stuff and without the denominational Doctrine that sometimes comes along with some Christian denominations. Vanilla usually means original and unchanged, if you didn't know. Guess I've been spending too much time on the modding sites.

And I answered your other edit at the start of this big ol post. So. Now I'm done. :lol:

 

[moseslmpg]

You have enough evidence to say that they do in that the people believe it. In this case, it's just not enough for you to agree. But that doesn't make the argument invalid or shaky as you put it in response to me.

I know that they believe it, but that isn't evidence that it exists. Some people believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but that doesn't mean the FSM has to exist for people to believe in it. Do you get my drift? It isn't really a good argument to say that, because people believe in God, then God exists.

The characters in DMC are just as non-omniscient as we are, so they could very easily be wrong, especially about things like this.

Do you really think that? You seem to have a very defined set of rules that every single thing must follow or it is wrong. Including Fiction. Because this is not so. In fact, what you said doesn't make a whole lot of sense at all. "Conceal something by revealing the concealment?" What fun would that be? Where would the surprise be? If you already knew 'something is up with this' all the time, you'd never be surprised by anything. So I disagree. "If something is not revealed or implied, then it doesn't exist." Is incomplete. Rather. "If something is not revealed or implied, then it doesn't exist - to the reader/viewer YET."

That is how fiction works, it isn't my opinion. Fiction runs on stricter rules than reality, because fiction has to be defined and intelligible for it to be understood.

What I said makes sense and it is true. I specifically was referring to concealment, and the only way to know that something is concealed is to reveal that it is concealed. It is a hermeneutical move basically, that has to happen for something to be understood as concealed. I can't explain it much better than that.

As for the second part, in fiction, if something is not revealed or implied, then it actually doesn't exist in that fictional world, at all. This says nothing about the possibility of that thing being added later; something may be added later in the next work, but until then, that thing does not exist. Again, this is more of an hermeneutical question than a canonical one. It is semantics. Basically, if there is no evidence for God and there is no implication of God's existence, then there is no God in fiction.

In the real world, things are more complicated, of course. Such rules don't necessarily apply.

However. Since the characters in this work of fiction are mentioning God, I'd say it actually is implied. But I would not be surprised if you disagree.

They could be mentioning unicorns or square circles, but that doesn't mean those things exist. The only thing evidenced by their belief is their hope and the concept of God. God does not have to exist for someone to believe in him, just as the Invisible Pink Unicorn doesn't have to exist to be believed in.

This clearly comes from a modern belief among some that God must cater to the whims and every need of the suffering masses. That believing in Him makes your life easy and free of pain. Not so. Sometimes when you're down and out and crying "Why, Oh WHY did you LET this happen to Me?!" the answer is "Because its going to make you stronger." But eh. Everyone needs someone else to blame, right?

No, it doesn't. It comes from a logical assumption, that if something exists, there will be evidence for its existence. In DMC, demons are evil, and the God we are discussing is totally good, as are his angels. Given that the whole premise of the game is fighting demons, you would expect at least 1 measly, junior angels to maybe give even one line of advice, rather than sit back and do absolutely nothing. Even in real world religion, it is thought that angels do strive against demons, even if they don't cater to one's every need. I see no problem blaming someone that is totally blameworthy.

Look at Nero. "I always wondered why you made my arm this way." Is the equivalent of the above with a bit less drama. He was lucky enough to get his answer in the same game.

Idly, Moses, your way of responding within quotes is for me, very difficult to read for some reason. It also makes it impossible to quote those responses using the quote button. Just saying. For some reason my eyes want skip right on over your responses within the quote boxes. But I'll try to respond to your earlier post. Hope its not too messy:

I'll try to respond like this from now on. The other way is just quicker.

That you don't think there appears to be one is obvious. However, this is you choosing not to believe even what Berial said. And he said it when he thought no one was listening. Clearly he believes in this guy's existence. And likely...

I believe what Berial said, and I would even believe if he believed in God's existence. But, that doesn't mean God exists. He would certainly be accustomed to the belief that God is some all powerful being that rules over the humans world, but that is just an idea. Again, stick a horn on a horse, and I could say "A horse, pretending to be a unicorn? Ridiculous..." but it doesn't mean that unicorns exist. Or does it confirm that they are real, to you?

...none of these reasons would apply to Berial who is not human, and therefore not prone to human whimsy. He'd have no reason to invent God. And if these are the reasons for God to exist in the human brain, then he'd also have every reason to deny God's existence.

OK, let me be clear, I meant any non-omniscient being, which includes all demons. Even if Berial didn't have to invent a God concept, he would have known it from his interaction with humans in the human world. I'm sure lots of humans said "OH MY GOD" right before he crushed them with his feet or ate them. Again, this is only evidence that the concept of God, and not its referent exists.

I'd say there most definitely is, given what I've and others have said so far. But I'm not surprised that this is your response. I'm guessing smoke to you would be the booming voice from the heavens business that you mentioned?

No, it isn't smoke. Because smoke would be some evidence that people would use and say, "hmm, since this happened, God must exist." You are using belief in smoke to prove that there is a fire, which is something that doesn't work. If there was an angel, it would work. If something miraculous happened that couldn't be accounted for by demonic power, it would work. But we don't have any of that.

And lastly:

"My usual agnostic stance?" My my. Heh. No Comment.

Shakier position: not in the least. It makes every bit of sense that the characters in their world know more about it than we do. You seem set on the idea that I was only referring to the human element, even though I mentioned a very specific non-human one. And no, I was not giving them any sort of world shaping powers. Quite the opposite actually. Something shaped -them- to believe as they do, which is what I thought I said. I really don't see how you took it as the other way around at all. :/

You do take an agnostic stance on many issues, that "we can't know for sure." I just find it strange that you have such a strong conviction in one of the historically shakiest beliefs ever.

It makes zero sense that fictional characters know more about their world than we do, especially in this case. We know things about them that they don't know about each other, we know how their universe started, its history, items, sidestories, even alternate dimensions/dropped canon. Unless the characters of DMC are omniscient with regard to their world, we know more than them. I can give you several examples if you disagree.

And as for what shaped the characters to believe what they believe, it was the writers and creators and producers, and so on. This can be proved by the fact that there are many fictional worlds where God does not exist, so God is not a prerequisite for characters existing or believing in Him. Kamiya and Kobayashi and Itsuno don't count as in-universe God though. I think this is the source of your confusion. DMC exists because of Kamiya, but in-universe, there is no actual need for a creating entity.

It sounds like you want to believe that there is a God in DMC, and are just taking the belief of the characters, as the possibility that God might exist. But again, this only works if their belief is justified, and their belief is justified only if there is evidence for believing. Is this how your organize your beliefs in real life? Do you believe in ghosts and the Loch Ness Monster because other people do?

 

[Kittn]

Bleh. This is like watching a group of kids play cops and robbers. Only you're the kid who always claims the other guy missed, ran out of bullets, or their gun misfired. Really makes the game tiring and boring instead of fun, yanno.

You've got your opinion of course, and everyone else has theirs. And from my point of view, you're the only one who's failed to offer up substantial proof of this guy not existing.

But of course, you can't prove a negative, right? So you're off the hook, and free to poke at the rest of the opinions here that don't coincide with yours. Though, given your ideas about Vergil, I'm surprised you'd take the -easy stance- on this matter. By this I mean, you can sit here and claim all day that there isn't evidence, because everything offered up doesn't suit your predetermined idea of how things must work. Your statement on how fiction -is- and how much characters are -allowed- to know about their world speaks as much.

It seems to me you're like a person with their back to a tree. Even though you can see its shadow and people around you are saying "That's such an awesome tree." it still doesn't exist to you. If your response to this is going to be "But there isn't any shadow." Save it. Enough here have shown that there is. Their arguments aren't invalid or shaky just because you don't agree with them. And your fiction-doesn't-work-that-way argument is something like saying "TREES DONT HAVE SHADOWS!!! >_<" It's simply not true.

As for this:

It sounds like you want to believe that there is a God in DMC, and are just taking the belief of the characters, as the possibility that God might exist. But again, this only works if their belief is justified, and their belief is justified only if there is evidence for believing. Is this how your organize your beliefs in real life? Do you believe in ghosts and the Loch Ness Monster because other people do?

Again I'll say, folks have offered evidence enough to make a pretty solid case of there being a God in DMC. So in reality it just sounds like you want to believe there is NO God in the game, and luckily for you, you can keep on believing that until the game designers make them appear with neon lights and fireworks. But your habit of discrediting everything anyone says that doesn't fit with your opinions is starting to get old.

In response to your insulting last questions that really have -nothing- to do with the discussion (We're not talking about RL here, but I do think you're projecting your personal beliefs into the conversation. Could be wrong, of course, and I hope I am.) If I believed things just 'cause others did, I'd be agreeing with you wouldn't I, instead of arguing my own opinion on this.

Anyway. I've made my case. And this is my last post on the matter. It starts to feel like a broken record - you don't believe anyone's evidence, and are unable to invalidate their opinions so it just goes in circles, because instead of accepting these things for what they are (opinions) you sit and try to argue people out of what they think. This isn't the first thread you've done it in either. :/

It tends to rub people the wrong way, if you haven't noticed.

 

[V]

I really hope this isn't going to be locked or halted because people are being too hardheaded or unaccommodating with their opinions. I enjoy this forum but if it's going to go this way every time there's an interesting discussion going on I might as well leave.

I'll be blunt, as it might help halt people developing grudges against each other at this point:

Moses: people are sensitive here. You have to be careful and a little less forceful in discussions with them.

And everyone else: Moses is just discussing here, he's not being personal. So there's no need to say he's being insulting if he's posing a question with relevance to the argument. If he is being genuinely insulting, then he is, but I haven't seen him troll or ask any actually personally insulting questions of anyone. Some members however I have seen hit the roof unnecessarily, so it would help if everyone could try to be polite and take non-personal approaches to discussions.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Aye! I agree with Lexy, this is a good topic and I'd hate for it to be ruined. Let's not make this a personal discussion - asking people if they believe the same way in real life as they would in a fictional world is crossing the line and GOING

!!!

We're talking about religion and Heaven and the existence of God in DMC. Keep your heads in the gaming world, alright?

I know your opinion doesn't matter more than anyone else's, but I would still like to understand what you use to support it. It seems like your basic argument is that: We have no evidence of God, or angels, or their action in the world, but it is not impossible that they exist, therefore they exist.

Yeah, you're spot on, that is my opinion. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there. If it is implied in a work of fiction that a character believes there is a God, then there's good reason for it. You can't go poking at Nero and tell him 'Hey, there is no proof that God exists in your world so don't have personal quips to the Non-Existent Big Guy about your arm'.

And let me just say this right now, if you're going to respond to my post, read the whole thing first. Another member on here used to dissect my posts exactly the same way you do, and used to highlight parts of my posts that was irrelevant, and in doing so he often veered off topic and missed my point completely.

Anyway, on to my reasoning for there being a God in DMC.

Consider Nero's character carefully. He looks bored out of his mind in the opera house when Sanctus rambles on about Sparda as the Saviour. He opts to listen to his music instead of some demon-made-god. His body language, his tone of voice, everything translates to the fact that he doesn't believe in the gibberish being preached to them, which means that Nero very clearly knows what is right, what is wrong, what is truth and what isn't. Worshipping a demon as a god doesn't fly with him, because in this context it's safe to presume that he (as everyone else might agree with me or not) differentiates between demons and God as evil and good. He hunts demons, it's his job, he knows better. Why else wouldn't he believe all the hype about Sparda being a god, if not for the idea that he knows there IS a God and Sparda isn't it?

Also Nero is often seen as the 'lone wolf' and I believe it's because he's the only logical person between a flock of sheep(everyone else) that blindly follow where the shepherd(Sanctus) leads them. He doesn't hunt demons because the Order wants him to, I recon he hunts demons because they're on the wrong side of the hellgate. There's justice behind his actions, so to speak. This is what I feel connects him to Dante - they fight for the same cause, even if their motivations are a bit different. So all that, and the fact that Nero directly addresses God (NOT Sparda, not Mundus, NOT some other deity but GOD) in a somewhat familiar way, is enough to convince me that there is a God in the DMC universe. Since Nero is pretty sharp of mind, I think it's safe to say that if he believes there's a God, there must be one. I can hardly fathom how Nero, as an intellectual character, can believe in something he cannot see or touch or hear without good cause, if he can deny Sparda as a divine being even with evidence to support how great Sparda had been.

I hope that made sense.
-edit- I can't believe I managed all that without taking a hit at Nero. I'm so proud of myself ;_;

 

[Meg]

^ That's a very interesting theory, but I don't think you can say there is a God because Nero clearly thinks there is. And on that note I wonder if Dante thinks there is a God?

BTW, congrats on not insulting Nero! *claps

 

[Angel]

Been a long time since I saw the nero-talking-to-arm cutscene but I didn't think he spoke directly to (a) God?

When Nero is talking about his arm, I got the impression he was referring not to a God, but rather to whoever created this arm of his (in running with my screwed-up theory of Nero's origins which include genetic messing-about with bits of Vergil/Nelo Angelo from Yamato or however it's spelt).

I don't think the DMC universe even factors in a God or heaven in the way we would see it. I don't think they even belong in the universe created - they just wouldn't fit.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Meg]

^ Oh my goodness! I figured it out. God does exist in DMC and its Angel! :lol:

I agree with you that there isn't a heaven or God in the way we are thinking there would be. Moses sent me his take on it and I there were some good points in it. But I'm not sure I should say because he didn't want to post it here.

 

[Angel]

I think, as many have already pointed out, there is some crossing over of real-life beliefs and a fictional world where, quite frankly, anything can happen. That's why it's fictional and not factual. There is a Christian argument, if you like, for why no "God" has turned up as of yet and why demons are being "allowed" to run riot, but essentially it's moot because that's not what we're discussing here.

I also don't get why this needs to be intellectualised so much - whatever happened to a good old discussion that everyone could follow without a degree in mumbo-jumbo? I highly doubt the creators of DMC have put nearly as much thought into their games as some of their fans do with their theorising :lol:

 

[Meg]

^ Sorry I didn't realize my theory of you being DMC's God was to intellectual for you :lol:

 

[Angel]

^ Sorry I didn't realize my theory of you being DMC's God was to intellectual for you :lol:

EVERYTHING is too intellectual for me :lol:

 

[Meg]

Alrighty then I'll make it easy for everyone to understand!

DMC= fiction

what creators were thinking= :wacko:

 

[moseslmpg]

You've got your opinion of course, and everyone else has theirs. And from my point of view, you're the only one who's failed to offer up substantial proof of this guy not existing.

I have pointed out several times how there is no evidence for their existence, and pointed out contradictions in the theory that they do exist.

But of course, you can't prove a negative, right? So you're off the hook, and free to poke at the rest of the opinions here that don't coincide with yours. Though, given your ideas about Vergil, I'm surprised you'd take the -easy stance- on this matter. By this I mean, you can sit here and claim all day that there isn't evidence, because everything offered up doesn't suit your predetermined idea of how things must work. Your statement on how fiction -is- and how much characters are -allowed- to know about their world speaks as much.

I don't need to prove it, because it is the default state, because it is not apparent. I can't help the fact that I can't offer a positive argument for a negative, which is why I asked people who believe it to explain. I've put forth the case that, if God or angels existed, we would have seen then, given the series is about supernatural conflict. Since we haven't seen them, they don't exist. That is my argument.

I am not just sitting here and shooting down ideas for fun. If someone can give me an argument that God and angels would exist in DMC but have no reason to ever show themselves or lift a single finger to fight against demons, then I'd consider it.

And don't get mad at me for telling you how fiction works. The fact is that the audience always, or almost always knows more about the fictional world than people in the fictional world. That's just how it works, by design.

And as for the easy stance, let me just say one thing here: My personal framework for DMC does include a God being, but it is not the Christian God nor the Christian angels, which is the only thing I am arguing against. If you want to say that a God exists, but it is apathetic, or impotent, or unable to intervene, that is totally fine. But then you would have to vote no in the poll, since I mean ONLY the God and angels in the Christian sense.

It seems to me you're like a person with their back to a tree. Even though you can see its shadow and people around you are saying "That's such an awesome tree." it still doesn't exist to you. If your response to this is going to be "But there isn't any shadow." Save it. Enough here have shown that there is. Their arguments aren't invalid or shaky just because you don't agree with them. And your fiction-doesn't-work-that-way argument is something like saying "TREES DONT HAVE SHADOWS!!! >_<" It's simply not true.

That is a bad analogy. I would be like a person on a treeless, grassless planet, devoid of vegetation and water, and composed only of rock. We are all resting with out back to some object, that some people think is a tree. I am simply asking "why does this supposed tree have no leaves? How does this tree grow with no water? Why are there no other trees on this planet?" To which you might reply "Some people believe it is a tree, so it probably is a tree."

But you're right, about their arguments. They aren't shaky or invalid because they don't agree with me, they are shaky and invalid on their own. I am just pointing it out and asking how they explain the discrepancies.

Again I'll say, folks have offered evidence enough to make a pretty solid case of there being a God in DMC. So in reality it just sounds like you want to believe there is NO God in the game, and luckily for you, you can keep on believing that until the game designers make them appear with neon lights and fireworks. But your habit of discrediting everything anyone says that doesn't fit with your opinions is starting to get old.

No, they haven't. They have offered hearsay at best, and unsupported opinions at best. They can believe what they want though, as I am only interested in why they believe those things and in pointing out any contradictions in their logic if there are any.

But actually, I do want to believe there is a God in DMC, which is why I mde one for my own framework. I just don't think it is a justifiable belief about the DMC canon. But it isn't about my opinion.

In response to your insulting last questions that really have -nothing- to do with the discussion (We're not talking about RL here, but I do think you're projecting your personal beliefs into the conversation. Could be wrong, of course, and I hope I am.) If I believed things just 'cause others did, I'd be agreeing with you wouldn't I, instead of arguing my own opinion on this.

OK, that was a misjudgment on my part, stepping over that line. Although to be clear, I was not being facetious, and I myself believe in both Nessie and ghosts, so I was not trying to ridicule you. I was just curious to know if you used different logic in real life, and why. But again, I apologize, I meant zero offense by that.

Anyway. I've made my case. And this is my last post on the matter. It starts to feel like a broken record - you don't believe anyone's evidence, and are unable to invalidate their opinions so it just goes in circles, because instead of accepting these things for what they are (opinions) you sit and try to argue people out of what they think. This isn't the first thread you've done it in either. :/

Have we considered the possibility that I don't believe anyone's evidence because their evidence is not believable? I think I have invalidated the bases of many people's opinions here; if we were in debate club, I think I would have won. Bust still, it is everyone's right to have their opinion, no matter how unexamined those opinions may be.

It tends to rub people the wrong way, if you haven't noticed.

I've noticed, but I can't be held responsible as long as I am being civil. I have a right to disagree and point out why I disagree. I would just appreciate more rigor from people who the burden of proof is on.

-------------

I don't mean to offend anyone here. If anyone doesn't want to argue, they don't have to reply. I won't venture into personal territory anymore, as I wasn't aware that it was a sensitive issue. I don't have that sensitivity, so I'm up for it myself.

------------

Angel: That is kind of my point as well. I just don't think God and angels are even an issue. They are simply a non-fact in DMC, until we see them or they do something.

Meg: I'm glad you like some parts of my framework. I think it works much better than the Christian conception of DMC. You're free to share the ideas with anyone you like, but I don't know if anyone really wants to hear the theories of Mr. Know It All in any case.

 

[V]

I'm interested in your theories, you've a 'working' knowledge of religions, symbolism, cultures and very much more besides. Like you said once, DMC is full of symbolism if you look for it and it's interesting stuff.

 

[moseslmpg]

True, it is full of symbolism and clues, which I based my framework on. But I don't know, I don't think it would be relevant in this thread. It is kind of complicated, and for people who don't understand the symbolism, I'm sure it seems pretty ridiculous and unnecessary.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

@Meg: thank you, thank you *bows down* Hehehe.

I figured Dante knows there is a god as well, or the principle of a god, which is why he was so amused and curious at the idea of people worshipping a demon 'as a god'. But then I feel I've stated that before and this is where my English is clearly failing me, because I'm somehow not conveying what I'm trying to say and I dunno how to word it. :\

Been a long time since I saw the nero-talking-to-arm cutscene but I didn't think he spoke directly to (a) God?

When Nero is talking about his arm, I got the impression he was referring not to a God, but rather to whoever created this arm of his

Exactly! Nero says "You know what God, I always wondered why you made my arm like this", which to me was as if he was speaking directly to God since there was no one in earshot when he was doing this little speech. AND, this also answers Moses's question about whether there is a creator God in the DMC universe. Nero questioning a God that made him the way he is, to me at least, says it all.

@Moses: why don't you post up your perspective of the whole symbolism thing? It's obvious everyone knows where I'm coming from with my understanding and theorising, so maybe if you could put out where you're coming from there will be a better chance of people understanding your view on it.

 

[moseslmpg]

I figured Dante knows there is a god as well, or the principle of a god, which is why he was so amused and curious at the idea of people worshipping a demon 'as a god'. But then I feel I've stated that before and this is where my English is clearly failing me, because I'm somehow not conveying what I'm trying to say and I dunno how to word it. :\

I think you have to differentiate between God itself, and the concept of God. I totally agree that people in DMC have a knowledge of the concept of God, but one can have knowldge of the concept of thigns that don't exist, like unicorns.

Exactly! Nero says "You know what God, I always wondered why you made my arm like this", which to me was as if he was speaking directly to God since there was no one in earshot when he was doing this little speech. AND, this also answers Moses's question about whether there is a creator God in the DMC universe. Nero questioning a God that made him the way he is, to me at least, says it all.

It doesn't answer my question. The only thing it totally proves is that Nero believes in God and that he has an idea of God. I agree with that. But a concept is not the thing it refers to.

@Moses: why don't you post up your perspective of the whole symbolism thing? It's obvious everyone knows where I'm coming from with my understanding and theorising, so maybe if you could put out where you're coming from there will be a better chance of people understanding your view on it.

I'll PM it to you, but I don't want to sway arguments either way. I'm investigating arguments and evidence here, not trying to convince people of my own personal theory. I'm not using my personal theory to back up any of my points in this thread, because like I said, my personal theory does have a God being, and beings that could be construed as angels. Let me know if you want to see it.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

1.It doesn't answer my question. The only thing it totally proves is that Nero believes in God and that he has an idea of God. I agree with that. But a concept is not the thing it refers to.

2.I'll PM it to you, but I don't want to sway arguments either way. I'm investigating arguments and evidence here, not trying to convince people of my own personal theory. I'm not using my personal theory to back up any of my points in this thread, because like I said, my personal theory does have a God being, and beings that could be construed as angels. Let me know if you want to see it.

1.I don't understand what concept you referring to. Nero believes that God created him so in that case there is solid reason to believe there is a creator God in DMC.

2.yes please!

 

[V]

1.I don't understand what concept you referring to. Nero believes that God created him so in that case there is solid reason to believe there is a creator God in DMC.

I wouldn't say it was a fully 'solid' reason to believe...

Because we don't actually know if Nero believes in God. Sometimes I talk sarcastically to God, but I don't know if he really is there or is listening. Sometimes I address him non-sarcastically, but I still have no proof that he is there. And sometimes when I stumble about in the dark and find bits of furniture accidentally with my shin, I'll probably yell out some expletives that may or may not include the word God - but it doesn't prove God exists, any more than Nero saying it in DMC proves the God he talks to or about is there. Speaking to or of God is a figure of modern speech now, as well, isn't it...? "Oh my God," "God, what now?" etc. It's possible Nero was simply addressing whatever made him the way he is, rather than 'God' per se, and speaking to "God" is a convenient and efficient word to express that in the game script. I know I've done that a few times, and that's what I've meant. It could be a figure of speech in Nero's case. He might be addressing a God he believes in directly, or he might not - my point here's just that because he uses the word 'God' doesn't necessarily mean he believes in one or that there is one.

It's plausible that any fictional humans would come up with the idea of a God, just like almost all cultures IRL have come up with a theory of creation and of God or Gods, but that still doesn't mean that that God is there in DMC. Because DMC people worship Sparda shows that they have this trait of worshipping things, but don't you think that if they were prepared to build a huge statue of Sparda and worship him, then if there were something higher than Sparda - a real God - there would be shown some physical evidence of the worship of that God, too? We're not shown any such thing at all, though. Nero saying the word 'God' is pretty much all the evidence there is of it? All through the DMC series we see churches/cathedrals/statues/towers dedicated to demon gods and the demon world. But nothing that suggests a higher counterpoint to them is even there. Wouldn't the people of DMC's world have built monuments and statues to angels and God as well if they existed? Instead we see lots of it dedicated to Mundus, or Sparda, or the God of Time, or 'evil' itself. Granted in the other games Dante is located in places where he is not likely to see such things, and in Fortuna, it would be likely to see lots of things referring to Sparda because of his presence there, but still. The only thing that comes close is that God of Time statue which is pretty much just an upgrading device - it's never explained.

I understand the point you are making, and if there were more verbal or physical references in DMC4 to 'God' (not the Saviour or Sparda) then I would think more of it and as more solid proof for the existence of a creator deity that is definitely not a demon. But - don't you think that the fact that Sanctus basically attempted to create a God - a 'saviour' - himself shows that there is a vacuum in DMC where God should be - a vacuum he is trying to fill to give people faith? Because the God they should be worshipping is simply not there. So he decides to 'make' one to restore people's confidence. It would seem far more likely that the people of Fortuna would accept a giant Sparda-like saviour appearing if they had no knowledge of a real higher God, and although Sanctus was a loon he was astute and manipulative - it's reasonable to suggest he would've known what the people would most likely fall for, given their beliefs.