Is there a Heaven in the DMC world?

[darkslayer13]

Canonically, I don't think that Heaven or angels or God exists in the Christian sense, at all. Like DS said, the light world is ours, and the dark world is the demons'. I think that helps contribute to the bleakness of the DMC world, knowing that humans are the only real force for good in the world.

I do think that people in the DMC universe believe in angels, but I think they are wrong. Just as we don't know if they exist in our world, neither do the humans in DMC know whether they exist.

Of course I have my own esoteric interpretation of the DMC world, based on the manga and informed by Gnostic and Hermetic traditions. But my vote in this context is no.
If the angels aren't of the light, and if they aren't in opposition to demons, then in what sense are they angels, and why even believe they exist?

I don't know if a neutral world is supported by the manga, but even if it was, why would the angels live there as opposed to the humans? It sounds like you think neither Heaven nor angels exist.

1. the dmc3 manga says nothing about a third world but it says nothing about there being only two. if there wasn't evidence of angels in dmc i would never have thought that there might be one but it's ether that or angels living in the human world because if they lived in hell they would be demons.

2. they are angels because they look like angels so humans would call them angels and since humans came up with the term angels anything considered to be an angel by most of humanity is one unless there is something that those people are unaware of that would make them call it something else. so they wouldn't be angels in the sense that they are holy beings serving god but they would be angels in the sense that they are called angels for lack of a better word.

( please tell us your interpretation of the dmc universe it would be interesting to hear a well thought out theory)

 

[moseslmpg]

1. the dmc3 manga says nothing about a third world but it says nothing about there being only two. if there wasn't evidence of angels in dmc i would never have thought that there might be one but it's ether that or angels living in the human world because if they lived in hell they would be demons.

True, but they wouldn't leave out a third world. I think there could be a place where Light and Darkness meet, but it isn't really world so much as a boundary.

But what is the evidence that angels exist in the DMC world? That's what I want to know.

2. they are angels because they look like angels so humans would call them angels and since humans came up with the term angels anything considered to be an angel by most of humanity is one unless there is something that those people are unaware of that would make them call it something else. so they wouldn't be angels in the sense that they are holy beings serving god but they would be angels in the sense that they are called angels for lack of a better word.

Then for this poll, they wouldn't be angels. I only mean angels in the sense as holy beings opposed to demons.

( please tell us your interpretation of the dmc universe it would be interesting to hear a well thought out theory)

My theory is very long and deep and hard to understand (that's what she said, amirite? ) It is also deuterocanonical so it doesn't fit perfectly.

My interpretation of the canonical universe is that neither God, nor Heaven, nor angels exist. The manga says there is only Light and Darkness, and humans are the Light, so no angels. Also angels have never been seen or helped in any battles against demons, which is kind of douchebaggy if they do exist. Same thing for God.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

But then what is a Fallen, except a fallen angel? I mean it's rather obvious what they are, as evidenced by their name, their powers of light, and their outward appearance.

It just confuses me that people think there cannot be angels, but there's the Fallen enemies sitting right there saying "Hey, I was one once, you know."

 

[moseslmpg]

But then what is a Fallen, except a fallen angel? I mean it's rather obvious what they are, as evidenced by their name, their powers of light, and their outward appearance.

It just confuses me that people think there cannot be angels, but there's the Fallen enemies sitting right there saying "Hey, I was one once, you know."

Fallen are demons, that fell from grace. Demons have all kinds of appearances. Sargassos look like skulls, but it doesn't mean giants and cyclopes exist. Blades look like lizards, but I seriously doubt they are reptiles. Mundus looks like a statue, but that doesn't mean someone sculpted him from a rock.

Just because the Fallen look like angels, it does not necessarily follow that angels exist. I mean, I can draw an angel, but it doesn't mean angels exist. You can stick a horn on a horse but it doesn't mean unicorns exist.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Well Nero directly addresses God and Dante states that he doesn't mix with religion and he looks surprised when Lady tells him people are worshipping a demon as a God. There are angels there is a God and therefore there must be a heaven somewhere in the DMC verse

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Where there's light, there's dark. Where there are demons, there are angels. Good people, bad people etc.
DMC has had no reasons to really bring in heaven. But obviously, if there is an underworld and a human world, there has to be a heaven (or Paradise).

 

[Darth Angelo]

I think there is a paradise like realm in the DMC universe but like hell has no satan I don't believe it has a god in it. Maybe just internal power struggles like in the underworld.

 

[V]

Despite finding confusing references to the 'opposites' of demons and devils and a tremulous reference to Heaven in the DMC3 manga (which could be interpreted simply as 'the supernatural world' rather than a 'Heaven' and an opposite of Hell) - which we established varies in meaning in different English translations of the Japanese - I would say that no, in the DMCverse there is no God, there are no 'angels' and there is no 'Heaven' (as Judeo-Christianity would recognise them).

Instead I would say that there's only the 'supernatural world' which is also the Underworld at the point in which Dante's story begins; the 'demons' are simply supernatural creatures, some of which are loyal to Mundus and some which are not, and this supernatural power can be utilised by or passed on to humans by blood as Sparda and Sanctus demonstrate. Using the word 'demon' to describe these beings is semantics, although they appear to have some typical qualities associated with Judeo-Christian demon figures; at the same time I'd say the hierarchy of DMC's Underworld is different and more based around a worship of personal strength and will to power rather than worship of Evil. The greater demons of DMC are more like Japanese Gods or figures of mythology to me than Judeo-Christian ones, less orderly and subject to more humanesque motivations.

My reason for thinking that are as follows.

The DMC series revolves around the idea that demonic and human sensibilities and even forms are interchangeable, not immutable. While the strong visual refs to Judeo-Christian lore and demonology in the series seem to contradict this, almost everything else goes against it. Mundus, if he were truly the "Prince of Darkness" (Satan, Ahriman etc.), would not be overthrown by Sparda (his own kind) or Dante to my mind, because he would've been put in place by God himself to achieve the task of testing mankind, he could not be removed until God himself instructed. Instead, Mundus rose to the position of the Underworld's ruler himself, and Sparda exceeded him. In the manga, Sparda is referred to as a black-horned God, which couldn't be the case in a Judeo-Christian scenario, where there is only one God. There are as many 'Gods' as may arise in the DMCverse it seems.

Arkham refers to angels in the DMC3 manga, which naturally I assumed would be the opposite of demons in the Judeo-Christian sense - but on thinking about it, it could simply be the way human beings would interpret such creatures based on their actions. Credo refers to himself as an angel, for example. He might be interpreted as either angelic or demonic based on the view of the beholder, and this could be what Arkham's on about when he talks about the giant putti statue, which in itself appears to morph from one countenance to another. I think it's basically saying that these supernatural beings, so powerful as to be considered 'gods' by humans, could be considered demonic or angelic, depending on how one viewed them. Arkham admires them, and so to him they are more angelic than demonic.

Those lines from the manga I mentioned in the convo:

Arkham: "To me he looks like an angel."
Vergil: "You'd be wrong."
Arkham: "Semantics. Were they not once one and the same?"
Vergil: "So I hear."

...I at first interpreted this as a reference to the Judeo-Christian war in Heaven and fallen angels. There's no further mention of it though in this sense in the manga, and the translation could be painting it this way, I'm not sure. It could easily be something else. It's made even more vague by the description:

"Once, the legends say, heaven was at war... and the earth was ripped apart over and over again. The link between heaven and earth was rendered unstable. And from their boundaries the Underworld was born and chaos spread. The marauders became known as demons, and in the ensuing slaughter, many human lives were lost."

There it's possibly suggesting that that heaven was the Underworld, or became the Underworld (remember: "2 milleniums ago there was a war, between the Human World and the other, the Underworld" - implying only two worlds, not earth, Heaven and Hell). And it suggests that the demons were called so because they were marauders, and implies that there were other beings that were not marauders and therefore wouldn't be classified as demons.

Otherwise there's no explicit reference of Heaven in the games that I remember, and instead references that the Underworld or otherworld is in place of Heaven (in the sky - DMC3, entered through a cathedral DMC1) or in place of both Heaven and Hell. So I would just say that bad supernatural beings have their opposites - good supernatural beings (i.e. Sparda) but that they don't reside in a Heaven because there seems no evidence of it. It seems more to me that The Underworld is much like this world, there is bad in it, and good in it, and deception in it, and loyalty and betrayal, and a ruler, and all the rest. It seems natural for one to assume there would be a Heaven, but the series itself avoids it, even in DMC1's Hell, there is an appearance of a Heavenly temple in which Mundus sits (could be aesthetic deception on his part, or it could be beauty and glory depending on one's view). I get the feeling that this Underworld could be Heaven or Hell depending on who is ruling it - that the line between good and evil is often blurred in DMC, that the appearance of 'Hell' is sometime Hellish and sometimes Heavenly, that demons can become angels and vice versa, or humans become demons and vice versa, that created evil beings can become good, and that nothing can be taken at face value, nothing is what it seems. We play from a human viewpoint, so if the Underworld is crammed with greedy, powerful, vengeful beings then it's only natural we would think if it as a fearful place, a 'Hell'.

DMC could have been a lot more simple and straightforward on the matter of what is good and evil in the DMCverse, but the series even begins with the unexpected rebellion of a demon against demonkind. Right off the bat you are presented with the idea that born evil may not be so and that absolutism can't apply.

So I go with the idea that the Underworld is just another world, and 'demons' are unpleasant supernatural beings from a human POV, but their qualities are not fixed. I see no evidence at all for a Judeo-Christian God; if God is referenced by a character we don't know if that is supposed to mean this type of God or not, we can only assume, especially since Sparda was treated as a God in the DMCverse... and otherwise this God doesn't involve itself in the world or the Underworld directly. Humans can interpret demons as Gods, this we do know, so I'll assume more of a relative stance on this.

 

[moseslmpg]

Well Nero directly addresses God and Dante states that he doesn't mix with religion and he looks surprised when Lady tells him people are worshipping a demon as a God. There are angels there is a God and therefore there must be a heaven somewhere in the DMC verse

Except my question is not whether religion exists in DMC, but rather do those things which religion refer to, such as God and angels exist. I don't think having non-omniscient characters refer to something beyond the scope of their understanding really means that it exists. We can refer to unicorns, again, and this does not mean they exist, only that an idea of them exists.

Again, by God I only mean a creator God, not a really powerful contingent being.

Where there's light, there's dark. Where there are demons, there are angels. Good people, bad people etc.
DMC has had no reasons to really bring in heaven. But obviously, if there is an underworld and a human world, there has to be a heaven (or Paradise).

Except the manga explicitly states that humans are the light to the demons' darkness. And it isn't at all obvious that if there are two worlds that are in balance, that there has to be a third world. Do you have any reason to think that a third world needs to exist? And what would the angels represent if humanity represents light?

Is your conclusion informed from your own religious beliefs, if you don't mind me asking?
---------

Despite finding confusing references to the 'opposites' of demons and devils and a tremulous reference to Heaven in the DMC3 manga (which could be interpreted simply as 'the supernatural world' rather than a 'Heaven' and an opposite of Hell) - which we established varies in meaning in different English translations of the Japanese - I would say that no, in the DMCverse there is no God, there are no 'angels' and there is no 'Heaven' (as Judeo-Christianity would recognise them).

Does that mean you think there are analogous concepts, i.e. Heaven or angels or God as recognized by other religious traditions?

Instead I would say that there's only the 'supernatural world' which is also the Underworld at the point in which Dante's story begins; the 'demons' are simply supernatural creatures, some of which are loyal to Mundus and some which are not, and this supernatural power can be utilised by or passed on to humans by blood as Sparda and Sanctus demonstrate. Using the word 'demon' to describe these beings is semantics, although they appear to have some typical qualities associated with Judeo-Christian demon figures; at the same time I'd say the hierarchy of DMC's Underworld is different and more based around a worship of personal strength and will to power rather than worship of Evil. The greater demons of DMC are more like Japanese Gods or figures of mythology to me than Judeo-Christian ones, less orderly and subject to more humanesque motivations.

I think the demons are obviously inspired by Judeo-Christian conceptions of them, but even among well known grimoires, the hierarchy differs. And of course, in the religious context, demons are after our eternal souls for religious reasons, rather than able to actually physically harm us. So I would say that the demons in DMC represent an even further literalization of "evil" than the notion of regular demons do. And as for their worship of power over evil, I certainly do think a case can be made that their initial sin is one of sadism, the joy in exploting and abusing those weaker than oneself, rather than pride, since there is no God to rebel against. But still, I think it is a moot point to separate evil and worship of self power (this would be interesting, the interplay between self-power and other-power, in the lives of Vergil and Sparda). In the DMC universe, the state of affairs of demons just is evil, by nature.

What human motivations do you think the demons exhibit that religious demons don't? The desire to rule? I'd say that they are less in accord with one another, but Hell is meant to be chaotic isn't it? Instinctually, all demons seem to be dirven towards the same goal: kill/torture humans and break through to the human world.

My reason for thinking that are as follows.

The DMC series revolves around the idea that demonic and human sensibilities and even forms are interchangeable, not immutable.

I think the only case where this is true is Sparda, and he may be a special case. Arkham does represent the counter-example, but it seems to me like becoming a demon is much easier than becoming a human. If form and sensibilities are inerchangeable, I believe there has to be some essence that is not, since demons are of darkness and humans are of light. But I don't disagree.

While the strong visual refs to Judeo-Christian lore and demonology in the series seem to contradict this, almost everything else goes against it. Mundus, if he were truly the "Prince of Darkness" (Satan, Ahriman etc.), would not be overthrown by Sparda (his own kind) or Dante to my mind, because he would've been put in place by God himself to achieve the task of testing mankind, he could not be removed until God himself instructed. Instead, Mundus rose to the position of the Underworld's ruler himself, and Sparda exceeded him. In the manga, Sparda is referred to as a black-horned God, which couldn't be the case in a Judeo-Christian scenario, where there is only one God. There are as many 'Gods' as may arise in the DMCverse it seems.

Your understanding of Satan is sort of occult, which although perhaps more true to the situation, might not apply to DMC. Most Christians don't believe Satan was appointed by God, but that he rebelled and was cast down, and some even believe he will never return to Heaven. You are correct that Mundus is not THE Satan referred to as constantly ruling Hell and opposing God, but then again, like I mentioned, Satan is most likely merely a title either for the ruler of Hell or for the entire entity itself. It simply means the Adversary, and grimoires give different accounts who the leader actually is, from Asmodeus, to Baal, to Beelzebub, to Lucifer, Azael, or even Belial.

So, I think that even if there were a succession of rulers of Hell, it wouldn't necessarily preclude a Christian worldview. After all, we don't really know what goes on down there, and due to the nature of Hell, never will. (But if you want to try, I know a great book on exorcism and possession called Hostage to the Devil by Fr. Malachi Martin. It is very nice, and gives an interesting insight into the paradigm of demonic possession and demons' interaction with the minds of the exorcist.)

Those lines from the manga I mentioned in the convo:

Arkham: "To me he looks like an angel."
Vergil: "You'd be wrong."
Arkham: "Semantics. Were they not once one and the same?"
Vergil: "So I hear."

...I at first interpreted this as a reference to the Judeo-Christian war in Heaven and fallen angels. There's no further mention of it though in this sense in the manga, and the translation could be painting it this way, I'm not sure. It could easily be something else. It's made even more vague by the description:

I really think the official translation should be off limits, because they are injecting Judeo-Christian concepts where they aren't present in the original, possibly as a way for us "dumb" gaijin to understand. It makes sense given how we tend to project our own religious framework onto everything else, to the point where we refer to kami as gods or Shinto as a "religion."

Scanlation for posterity:
Arkham: To me they appear as angels
Vergil: Foolish...these are demons
Arkham: That is a fact. Such is their power. You did not think there would be beauty among demons as well? It seems even the humans could unconsciously see that this was a resting place.


"Once, the legends say, heaven was at war... and the earth was ripped apart over and over again. The link between heaven and earth was rendered unstable. And from their boundaries the Underworld was born and chaos spread. The marauders became known as demons, and in the ensuing slaughter, many human lives were lost."

There it's possibly suggesting that that heaven was the Underworld, or became the Underworld (remember: "2 milleniums ago there was a war, between the Human World and the other, the Underworld" - implying only two worlds, not earth, Heaven and Hell). And it suggests that the demons were called so because they were marauders, and implies that there were other beings that were not marauders and therefore wouldn't be classified as demons.

Again, I think they are reading into things...and then writing into things. But I think the reference to marauders just means that demons were marauders compared to humans...or something. The scanlation is totally different:
"At one time one could easily return to Heaven, and countless great rents were torn in the Earth. During the birth of the Earth and the Heavens, in the instability that followed, countless times pandemonium [sic] spilled across the border. The milling humans could do nothing, and whenever the wrath of Heaven poured down on them many lives were lost."

It seems more to me that The Underworld is much like this world, there is bad in it, and good in it, and deception in it, and loyalty and betrayal, and a ruler, and all the rest.

Is it? Or are we projecting onto it? I don't think there is much good in it, or rather if there is, it has no way to manifest itself. I see the Underworld as a feudal place, with a ruling system similar to Rome or Greece, but all of that is veneer on the untameable wilderness which is Hell. But then again, demons would say the same about the human world, except we actually believe in the facades we make while they recognize them as false. So maybe you are right.

It seems natural for one to assume there would be a Heaven, but the series itself avoids it, even in DMC1's Hell, there is an appearance of a Heavenly temple in which Mundus sits (could be aesthetic deception on his part, or it could be beauty and glory depending on one's view).

I think this implies that even Mundus knows of the concepts of Heaven and angels, since he could be using it for deception, or to glorify himself, or in a manner similar to usual demonologies, mocking the authority of Heaven. Still, it would seem as if not even Mundus knows if God exists or not. I think that this is a key feature of DMC (as it is in many animes playing with Western religion), the Absent God, and the need to fill that perceived vacuum with power. This is the recognition which drives the "ungodly messiah" (cartoonish evil masterminds, or Vergil, for instance) to neurotically and irrational seek control and stability in a world that God has forgotten.

I get the feeling that this Underworld could be Heaven or Hell depending on who is ruling it - that the line between good and evil is often blurred in DMC, that the appearance of 'Hell' is sometime Hellish and sometimes Heavenly, that demons can become angels and vice versa, or humans become demons and vice versa, that created evil beings can become good, and that nothing can be taken at face value, nothing is what it seems. We play from a human viewpoint, so if the Underworld is crammed with greedy, powerful, vengeful beings then it's only natural we would think if it as a fearful place, a 'Hell'.

Do you think it is actualyl possible for the Underworld to become a good place though? Even if the ruler themself is good, why should we believe that this ideal will prevail rather than having its throat slit to maintain the status quo? I don't think the Underworld is nearly that mutable, and I believe for things to remain in balance, it must remain evil in some sense. It is unnatural for demons to act human and vice versa.

That was a nice, well thought out response. Very interesting. I think contemplating such things, integrating one's mind into a fictional world, can help us better understand ourselves and our world. Because, after all, all true stories are myths in some sense, narratives that uncover the relations of the various aspects of the Self to each other.

 

[Kittn]

Well Nero directly addresses God and Dante states that he doesn't mix with religion and he looks surprised when Lady tells him people are worshipping a demon as a God. There are angels there is a God and therefore there must be a heaven somewhere in the DMC verse

This.
It could be argued that Nero, raised to believe it, was referring to Sparda as the God in his statement.

But, Berial also makes a mention of God in the singular (A human, posing as God?) And he wouldn't of been referencing Sparda. Also Dante seems to acknowledge a higher power though not particularly interested or disinterested in whoever it may be: he also wouldn't have Sparda in mind. So, even if its not the same religious setup as the vanilla Judaic type, there at least appears to be some kinda Divine Good Guy that people call God.

And well, he'd need a place to hang out. So I agree with Chloe.

Also In response to this:

Except my question is not whether religion exists in DMC, but rather do those things which religion refer to, such as God and angels exist. I don't think having non-omniscient characters refer to something beyond the scope of their understanding really means that it exists. We can refer to unicorns, again, and this does not mean they exist, only that an idea of them exists.

Well, considering the average DMC-verse resident believes something along the lines of a Heaven and God & Crew existing, I'd have to say "Where there's Smoke, there's Fire." Just because we players haven't been presented with rock solid evidence of God or Heaven in the games, doesn't mean it does not exist, or that its only an idea.

Even fictional folk usually have reasons for their beliefs based on an event or experience at one point or another. At least, this is what I'd like to think.

So yeah. I think there is a Heaven and a God in the DMC universe.

 

[moseslmpg]

This.
It could be argued that Nero, raised to believe it, was referring to Sparda as the God in his statement.

I'm fairly sure that not even the Order believes Sparda is THE God. Do they ever even call him God? They worship him as their Savior, but not any kind of Creator.

But, Berial also makes a mention of God in the singular (A human, posing as God?) And he wouldn't of been referencing Sparda. Also Dante seems to acknowledge a higher power though not particularly interested or disinterested in whoever it may be: he also wouldn't have Sparda in mind. So, even if its not the same religious setup as the vanilla Judaic type, there at least appears to be some kinda Divine Good Guy that people call God.

I don't think that there appears to be a God at all, just a belief that a single God may exist or an idea of it. God exists in DMC as a concept, that much I concede, but what is at issue is if an actual being, God, exists.

Well, considering the average DMC-verse resident believes something along the lines of a Heaven and God & Crew existing, I'd have to say "Where there's Smoke, there's Fire." Just because we players haven't been presented with rock solid evidence of God or Heaven in the games, doesn't mean it does not exist, or that its only an idea.

Except, using your analogy, there isn't even smoke. It is more like people believe there might be smoke, and so assume the presence of fire. There has been no glimpse of angels or God or any supernatural good during he entire series, when Dante has been fighting demons on his own. If God and angels do exist, that seems mighty strange that they would let Eva get killed and not help Dante at all, and it is very strange that no angelic weapons or artifacts have been found.

Even fictional folk usually have reasons for their beliefs based on an event or experience at one point or another. At least, this is what I'd like to think.

It is most likely that their reasons are wrong though. They could believe because they feel lonely or don't want to think they have to face demons alone. Angels and God in DMC could be an invention of humans to inspire them during the early war against demons, etc. I'm sure they have a reason for their beliefs, but I don't see how that makes their beliefs true.

So yeah. I think there is a Heaven and a God in the DMC universe.

OK, so your position is based on the opinions of the characters in DMC. Interesting. By assuming that their belief necessitates the existence of God and angels, you are effectively giving them world shaping power and omniscience, i.e. they know more about their own world than we do as outside observers.

It's strange, given your usual agnostic stance, that you would opt for the shakier position.

EDIT: What is vanilla Judaic God?
EDIT2: For people who believe God or angels exist, how do you justify them not intervening to help Dante or fight demons? Provide a theodicy or sorts, if you will, explaining why these angels aren't just as evil in their idle observation of human suffering.

 

[V]

In the Judeo-Christian sense I don't see that the DMC 'world' reflects the specifically J-C worldview that much, as half of it seems to be missing, unless we are just supposed to assume it's in there somewhere - but it is tempting to assume it's the darker half of a J-C-like one; there's comparisons to other world mythologies that can be made in DMC as you know, and it's much like an amalgam of polytheistic mythology and adventure with a backdrop of J-C-like absolutism for it to vie with, when we consider the nature of the two worlds that we nearly always get to move between in the games, and how the characters frequently strive against the nature of their respective worlds and orders (much like in Greek or Norse mythology).

With regards the human personality of the higher demons in DMC - I think I'm reading into that a little as personality is obviously sometimes left out of descriptions of traditional demons, and the game makers were putting that in as well for effect and ease of storytelling, but yes: the desire to rule, the ability to betray the side of Evil or demonkind, having personal pride, pride that can be wounded, loyalty, falling in love (if you consider Sparda loved Eva), etc. Some examples would be Nelo Angelo's apparent desire to have a fair fight. Trish's ability to turn against her creator, or Sparda's awakening to the concept of 'justice'. Beowulf's (highly personal) anger at Sparda's betrayal. Cerberus admiring Dante's ability with good grace. Griffon's implied trust of his master by beseeching him. And so on. The lesser demons I'm not convinced have un-demonlike personality traits, but the higher ones surely do if they choose to have them.

Yeah, my mention of Satan there was rather colloquial, I know a little more about him than I let on there, but nonetheless, could the Adversary be truly defeated by anyone other than God? He is allowed to continue to be by God's whim... until he is no longer needed or allowed, is what I mean there. If Mundus is the equivalent of Satan, one imagines him finding himself in the lake of fire as in "Paradise Lost", awakening to a world in which he quickly appoints himself Archfiend for the express purpose of aggravating Heaven? I see Mundus as simply wanting to rule the human world like he says, but you don't get much from him in the sense that he's desperate to torture human beings. You can compare him with Satan, in that he sort of seems unkillable. In DMC, Dante destroys other demons of apparently equal or near-equal stature. Mundus is one that isn't killed at the end either by Sparda or Dante. So perhaps you're right. I just likened him to being driven by greed and revenge, rather than a divine task to tempt and ruin.

I would say the human world is as chaotic and frightening and driven by personal gain as the Underworld could be, although humans have an antidote - love or compassion, which demons apparently don't, at least not often. I would say Hell would be a more jacked-up version of this world, with far less morality knocking around. In terms of the Underworld's mutability, it's unlikely it would be full of goodness, just like this world isn't exactly overflowing with apparent goodness, to my mind. But not impossible, as Sparda, Dante, Lucia and Trish etc. (all hailing from demonic origins, blood, and/or upbringing) prove.

 

[moseslmpg]

With regards the human personality of the higher demons in DMC - I think I'm reading into that a little as personality is obviously sometimes left out of descriptions of traditional demons, and the game makers were putting that in as well for effect and ease of storytelling, but yes: the desire to rule, the ability to betray the side of Evil or demonkind, having personal pride, pride that can be wounded, loyalty, falling in love (if you consider Sparda loved Eva), etc. Some examples would be Nelo Angelo's apparent desire to have a fair fight. Trish's ability to turn against her creator, or Sparda's awakening to the concept of 'justice'. Beowulf's (highly personal) anger at Sparda's betrayal. Cerberus admiring Dante's ability with good grace. Griffon's implied trust of his master by beseeching him. And so on. The lesser demons I'm not convinced have un-demonlike personality traits, but the higher ones surely do if they choose to have them.

I think that Sparda, Trish, and Nelo are special cases. But I don't see these really as human traits, but merely traits of intelligent beings. I don't think demons (let us call the intelligent ones devils) have any real choice in their traits, rather their intelligence serves to further the realization of their underlying, essential instincts. This is also why I believe Sparda's case was so special, and is probably the most miraculous thing to happen in the DMC world; he did not choose to be awakened, bur rather he was awakened, which then gave him the ability to choose.

Yeah, my mention of Satan there was rather colloquial, I know a little more about him than I let on there, but nonetheless, could the Adversary be truly defeated by anyone other than God? He is allowed to continue to be by God's whim... until he is no longer needed or allowed, is what I mean there.

My point was just that if Satan is a title, then individual holders of that title could be defeated, as long as there was someone to fill the position. Or if Satan is understood as the entirety of Hell, then it would remain undefeated until there was no opposition to God.

If Mundus is the equivalent of Satan, one imagines him finding himself in the lake of fire as in "Paradise Lost", awakening to a world in which he quickly appoints himself Archfiend for the express purpose of aggravating Heaven?

Well, it is clear that Mundus is one of many rulers of the underworld, as Argosax is implied as a past one, and Mundus deposed the previous one before his rise to power.

I see Mundus as simply wanting to rule the human world like he says, but you don't get much from him in the sense that he's desperate to torture human beings. You can compare him with Satan, in that he sort of seems unkillable. In DMC, Dante destroys other demons of apparently equal or near-equal stature. Mundus is one that isn't killed at the end either by Sparda or Dante. So perhaps you're right. I just likened him to being driven by greed and revenge, rather than a divine task to tempt and ruin.

Just to be clear: I don't see Mundus as the Biblical Satan either, driven by some divine task or religious impetus to punish humans. His motivation is to unite the worlds again and rule over beings that are weaker than hi and thus don't really deserve to exist. And I didn't mean to imply that all demons and devils have a conscious desire to torture humans, but I believe the lower demons do, whereas this instinct in higher demons is sublimated in their desire to rule the human world.

I would say the human world is as chaotic and frightening and driven by personal gain as the Underworld could be, although humans have an antidote - love or compassion, which demons apparently don't, at least not often. I would say Hell would be a more jacked-up version of this world, with far less morality knocking around. In terms of the Underworld's mutability, it's unlikely it would be full of goodness, just like this world isn't exactly overflowing with apparent goodness, to my mind. But not impossible, as Sparda, Dante, Lucia and Trish etc. (all hailing from demonic origins, blood, and/or upbringing) prove.

Again, most of the devils we have seen in the series are special cases. Sparda awoke, Trish was created to mimic Eva and so her wires might have gotten crossed, and Lucia was also created and doesn't appear to be a natural demon even as she has almost no feeling of animosity.

But I think we have to distinguish between the Underworld itself, and the denizens of the Underworld. Certainly, the human world in DMC and in real life has more good than evil when compared to Hell. It is like the comparison between a prison and the outside world; the people on the outside aren't necessarily better than the people on the inside, but it is known for a fact that a higher concentration of bad guys exist no the inside.

I think it would be best to think of the underworld as a wilderness, where morality really has no place, and only power and survival are important. Any goodness that did exist would be instantly squashed because it would be a weakness in such a harsh environment.

As for the Underworld itself, I think it is mutable in form, but not in nature as a place of evil or discomfort. Refer to Wayne Barlowe's art for examples of what I mean.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Except my question is not whether religion exists in DMC, but rather do those things which religion refer to, such as God and angels exist. I don't think having non-omniscient characters refer to something beyond the scope of their understanding really means that it exists. We can refer to unicorns, again, and this does not mean they exist, only that an idea of them exists.

Again, by God I only mean a creator God, not a really powerful contingent being.

But how can a being be a creator God if it doesn't have infinite power? Considering that this is DMC and a lot of beings in this universe have great power, it'd be illogical to have a creator that isn't almighty. If the creator's power didn't set it aside and higher than all the others, then in that case anybody could be a creator - Sparda could be a creator God, even Mundus or Vergil could be a creator God.

Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about religion in my statement. I was quoting Dante because in him declaring no interest in religion but then having his curiosity peaked by the idea of a demon being worshipped as a god, I got the impression that he is aware of a divine God but wants nothing to do with anything non-demonic.

Like Meg said before, DMC is a huge mash of religions and mythologies around the world. There's Norse and Greek and even Indian mythos tossed in there. And yeah, they've taken some influence from Christianity as well. I mean...okay, this might get confusing but try stick with me. Everyone knows the story about Lucifer being one of God's most loved angels, and how he rebelled because according to the Quran he disobeyed God by not bowing to mankind when ordered to. Bring on the rebellion and the fallen angels!

Now, its influence in DMC: Mundus is the Prince of the Underworld, ruler of hell, wants to merge the demon world with the human world and rule over all and country. Mundus, being in the higher rank of ruler here, can be classed as 'God'. Along comes Sparda, doesn't like Mundus's idea, and rebels. Sparda, as the rebel, can be seen as Lucifer. BUT Capcom twisted it, made Mundus a 'bad God', made Sparda 'a good rebel'. Sparda fights his own kind to protect mankind, as I'd imagine Lucifer probably really put up a fight to keep his own kind 'high and proud' over mankind. The difference is that God kicked Lucifer out of heaven, with all his entourage, whereas Sparda sealed part of himself away in the demon realm to save humanity. Sparda sacrificing his powers, taking on a human body, and wandering the earth and 'keeping the peace' can easily translate to the same thing God had done by humbling Himself into a human form and living among people as one of us, aka Jesus. All that, and of course the fact that Sparda is this big mysterious legend with awesome power but no one alive has ever seen him (save for his sons), which again refers to the Christian God. Everyone knows the stories, knows of Him, and there are signs everywhere that He does exist, but people naturally question things and if there is no solid answer or solid evidence, then it's made to be 'make-believe'. The same thing with Sparda, everyone in the DMC realm knows what he's done, what he'd had to sacrifice, but they speak of his endeavours in fairy tales and bedtime stories, they've even thrown him into the ancient book of Legends because people forget how real he was and how real it had been what he'd done for them.

Then the whole Sparda falling for a mortal and bearing halfbreeds thing? Again, taken from Christian beliefs. God came down on Maria in the Holy Spirit and impregnated her to bear the Son of God. Sparda impregnated Eva to bear the Sons of Sparda. And on Eva herself - Adam is seen as the 'first' man, the first of his kind, and Eve is known as the 'first' woman. Sparda in a sense is the first of his kind (to rebel and protect humanity) so I'm pretty sure they just changed the name Eve into Eva - where else would they have gotten her name from? I'm still trying to figure out where they got Sparda and Mundus's names from...

Anyway. POINT is, it's pretty obvious that yeah, there are a lot of twisted Christian influence on the DMC realm, as there are about fifty different religions/mythos tossed into the pot too. I just had to add that since the discussion keeps coming back to the principles and beliefs of Christianity.

Mundus was not the most powerful being. He had the title of ruler and prince, but you get higher rankings than that. Who was the King? Or queen even? You can't progress upward from 'prince' if king or queen are still alive. Sparda was neither, he was seen as the right-hand of the prince - high up there but not worthy of rank.

So, chances are that there probably is a God of sorts in the DMC realm, that is seen as a Creator/King/Being Above All Others (I'd call him Hideki but some might not agree with me), but not a creator God as we know it in world religion. I mean this is a game, it's all fictional, so you need to ask whether the DMC universe could exist without a Creator? Yes! People today believe we simply exist and that our being here is a matter of 'science', that we have no souls, that there is no higher power and that we're left to our own devices, so this could very well apply to a fictional world as well. Why not?

 

[The crazy demon]

^Just something to add, Eva is Eve in spanish

 

[moseslmpg]

But how can a being be a creator God if it doesn't have infinite power? Considering that this is DMC and a lot of beings in this universe have great power, it'd be illogical to have a creator that isn't almighty. If the creator's power didn't set it aside and higher than all the others, then in that case anybody could be a creator - Sparda could be a creator God, even Mundus or Vergil could be a creator God.

That was my point. That when I say God in this case, I mean only an all powerful creator, not just a very powerful entity.

Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about religion in my statement. I was quoting Dante because in him declaring no interest in religion but then having his curiosity peaked by the idea of a demon being worshipped as a god, I got the impression that he is aware of a divine God but wants nothing to do with anything non-demonic.

See, what you are not realizing is that you actually are talking about religion rather than God. Dante is aware of teachings and ideas about God, but that doesn't mean he has seen God or knows He exists. That just means he knows the idea of God exists. Dante isn't omniscient; he didn't even know Trish gave the Sparda sword to Sanctus until he got to the island.

Like Meg said before, DMC is a huge mash of religions and mythologies around the world. There's Norse and Greek and even Indian mythos tossed in there. And yeah, they've taken some influence from Christianity as well. I mean...okay, this might get confusing but try stick with me. Everyone knows the story about Lucifer being one of God's most loved angels, and how he rebelled because according to the Quran he disobeyed God by not bowing to mankind when ordered to. Bring on the rebellion and the fallen angels!

I don't think there is the mythos of other religions included, but rather certain characters and items. The basic framework is Judeo-Christian.

I don't understand your point about the fallen angels. I know that is how religion works in our world, but DMC is a fictional world.

Now, its influence in DMC: Mundus is the Prince of the Underworld, ruler of hell, wants to merge the demon world with the human world and rule over all and country. Mundus, being in the higher rank of ruler here, can be classed as 'God'.

Mundus isn't God. Remember God in this case is an omnipotent creator God, not just a powerful being. Mundus is literally a devil.

Along comes Sparda, doesn't like Mundus's idea, and rebels. Sparda, as the rebel, can be seen as Lucifer. BUT Capcom twisted it, made Mundus a 'bad God', made Sparda 'a good rebel'. Sparda fights his own kind to protect mankind, as I'd imagine Lucifer probably really put up a fight to keep his own kind 'high and proud' over mankind. The difference is that God kicked Lucifer out of heaven, with all his entourage, whereas Sparda sealed part of himself away in the demon realm to save humanity. Sparda sacrificing his powers, taking on a human body, and wandering the earth and 'keeping the peace' can easily translate to the same thing God had done by humbling Himself into a human form and living among people as one of us, aka Jesus. All that, and of course the fact that Sparda is this big mysterious legend with awesome power but no one alive has ever seen him (save for his sons), which again refers to the Christian God. Everyone knows the stories, knows of Him, and there are signs everywhere that He does exist, but people naturally question things and if there is no solid answer or solid evidence, then it's made to be 'make-believe'. The same thing with Sparda, everyone in the DMC realm knows what he's done, what he'd had to sacrifice, but they speak of his endeavours in fairy tales and bedtime stories, they've even thrown him into the ancient book of Legends because people forget how real he was and how real it had been what he'd done for them.

I see what you are doing and I agree, but this does not answer the question. I'm not asking for parallels to rebellions and Jesus, I'm talking about if God actually exists.

Good job putting that all together though. Sometimes I wonder if Jesus exists in the DMC world, or if Sparda is their version of Jesus/Savior.

Then the whole Sparda falling for a mortal and bearing halfbreeds thing? Again, taken from Christian beliefs. God came down on Maria in the Holy Spirit and impregnated her to bear the Son of God. Sparda impregnated Eva to bear the Sons of Sparda. And on Eva herself - Adam is seen as the 'first' man, the first of his kind, and Eve is known as the 'first' woman. Sparda in a sense is the first of his kind (to rebel and protect humanity) so I'm pretty sure they just changed the name Eve into Eva - where else would they have gotten her name from? I'm still trying to figure out where they got Sparda and Mundus's names from...

Again, this is besides the point, but I'm glad you do know about it.

Sparda comes from the Italian for sword "Spada," and Mundus means the "World" in Latin, in a sense close to the Greek Kosmos. It connotes order and structure. It also denotes a toilet ornament.

Anyway. POINT is, it's pretty obvious that yeah, there are a lot of twisted Christian influence on the DMC realm, as there are about fifty different religions/mythos tossed into the pot too. I just had to add that since the discussion keeps coming back to the principles and beliefs of Christianity.

Mundus was not the most powerful being. He had the title of ruler and prince, but you get higher rankings than that. Who was the King? Or queen even? You can't progress upward from 'prince' if king or queen are still alive. Sparda was neither, he was seen as the right-hand of the prince - high up there but not worthy of rank.

Mundus was a prince in the past, but when he became rules he was known as the King and Emperor, which is even above king. So whatever he chooses to call himself isn't evidence for God. And the ranks aren't equal. Satan is called the Prince of Darkness, but does that mean God is the King of Darkness?

So, chances are that there probably is a God of sorts in the DMC realm, that is seen as a Creator/King/Being Above All Others (I'd call him Hideki but some might not agree with me), but not a creator God as we know it in world religion. I mean this is a game, it's all fictional, so you need to ask whether the DMC universe could exist without a Creator? Yes! People today believe we simply exist and that our being here is a matter of 'science', that we have no souls, that there is no higher power and that we're left to our own devices, so this could very well apply to a fictional world as well. Why not?

So there is a God in the universe, but where is He? Why does he never show himself?

 

[Dante's Stalker]

So there is a God in the universe, but where is He? Why does he never show himself?

I dunno. Why is there so much mystery and confusion revolving around Sparda? Where is he? Is he really dead or is that a facade? And if so why does he not come forth? It's all rhetorical because there are no answers that can be stated as facts. We can guess that maybe God is omnipotent and has no form that the human eye can detect. Or we could speculate that Sparda probably is dead but made sure that there is enough contradicting factors revolving around his disappearance to keep his enemies on their toes JUST in case he was alive after all. OR maybe Sparda and God are having tea on a puffy cloud right above our heads and taking bets on how many kids Dante will have one day before he decides to ditch them on Nemo. We can theorise about details but I see no point cos we don't know.

Anyway, yeah, Sparda is basically the DMC Jesus. I should have just said that instead of going in depth. I recon that's partially why he's my favourite in the series.Let me just say that this is all my perspective. I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me or to give the impression that my opinion matters more than anyone else's...just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[V]

So there is a God in the universe, but where is He? Why does he never show himself?

Noted, but why do we always expect him to show himself, and to exist in terms we can understand and classify? I've always thought that religious holy books explain God in a way that humans can easily understand, but that it's not something that can be properly translated or shown any more than you can adequately translate or show what it's really like to live a human life. If there is a God in the DMCverse, it could well be that he/she/it can't be shown, in the same way we can't really show our spiritual ideas right now and do them any justice.

...Or, perhaps at some point that God will be shown in the series. They kind of scraped on it with the Saviour idea.

 

[moseslmpg]

I dunno. Why is there so much mystery and confusion revolving around Sparda? Where is he? Is he really dead or is that a facade? And if so why does he not come forth?

Sparda is dead, canonically, and I don't know why people think he isn't. Even if he wasn't, he isn't God, who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. And we know that Sparda existed, but have no evidence of God existing at all.

It's all rhetorical because there are no answers that can be stated as facts. We can guess that maybe God is omnipotent and has no form that the human eye can detect. Or we could speculate that Sparda probably is dead but made sure that there is enough contradicting factors revolving around his disappearance to keep his enemies on their toes JUST in case he was alive after all. OR maybe Sparda and God are having tea on a puffy cloud right above our heads and taking bets on how many kids Dante will have one day before he decides to ditch them on Nemo. We can theorise about details but I see no point cos we don't know.

Again, we know Sparda existed. If God is omnipotent but there is no action he produces in the world, then he effectively nonexists. Why say He exists at all if He doesn't do anything? Even if the human eye can't detect God, then demons should be able to, or at least see angels.

Anyway, yeah, Sparda is basically the DMC Jesus. I should have just said that instead of going in depth. I recon that's partially why he's my favourite in the series.Let me just say that this is all my perspective. I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me or to give the impression that my opinion matters more than anyone else's...just thought I'd throw that out there.

I know your opinion doesn't matter more than anyone else's, but I would still like to understand what you use to support it. It seems like your basic argument is that: We have no evidence of God, or angels, or their action in the world, but it is not impossible that they exist, therefore they exist.

Noted, but why do we always expect him to show himself, and to exist in terms we can understand and classify? I've always thought that religious holy books explain God in a way that humans can easily understand, but that it's not something that can be properly translated or shown any more than you can adequately translate or show what it's really like to live a human life. If there is a God in the DMCverse, it could well be that he/she/it can't be shown, in the same way we can't really show our spiritual ideas right now and do them any justice.

...Or, perhaps at some point that God will be shown in the series. They kind of scraped on it with the Saviour idea.

Why? Because this is a videogame, a fictional world. In fiction, the only way to conceal is to reveal the concealment. If something is not revealed or implied, then it doesn't exist. Even if God couldn't be shown, there would be metaphorical ways to indicate his existence, like a booming voice form the sky, or angels. None of those are present.

God in Himself I'm certain transcends logic and understanding, but I only mean an ultimate force of good in the DMC world. If He is really good, then where has He been during all these struggles with demons?

If God will be shown in the series, then I think he will be pretty pathetic given his absence so far. He would have to be apathetic to human suffering, or powerless to stop it.

 

[Darkstar Darin]

wow...never thought of that...how would this b a vs thread?