Is there a Heaven in the DMC world?

[moseslmpg]

This is a question I'm asking because I am curious what you all think. It is not a VS thread.

We all know Hell exists in the DMC world, although it may not work as a religious entity as described in our world, and could be a natural area. But, do you think an opposite exists, a Heaven? Do you think there are angels, or even a God in the conventional sense? Do you believe that the demons are actually fallen angels?

Basically, do you think that DMC fits into the Judeo-Christian worldview or is it different?

Please explain why you think what you do.

Edit: God in this case refers only to the Judeo-Christian creator God, not just a random supreme being. If you want to vote for a supreme being that is different than God, don't choose an option where God exists, but feel free to explain your choice in the thread.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

I would expect that the whole of Heaven exists, considering that the Fallen demons are just that: Fallen angels.

 

[Meg]

Well in DMC4 the Order was big on angels so I think its safe to say angels exist. As for Heaven and God....that I don't know. I don't think it follows the Christian definition though. More like a combination of beliefs.

 

[darkslayer13]

according to the dmc3 manga our world is the "world of light" that exists as hell's opposite. basically meaning that earth fills heaven's role in the dmc universe. so that means that would mean there is no heaven in the dmc universe.

if you don't count the dmc3 manga then nothing has been said about it ether way. the order believing in angels doesn't mean any more than Christians believing in angels. it is odd that a universe with no heaven has fallen angels but apparently they come from some where else.

 

[moseslmpg]

OK, vote for that.

You mean the demons in DMC are fallen angels or that demons in our religions are fallen angels?

Why do you think we haven't seen any angels in DMC so far?

Not going to argue in this thread, but I do want to know why people believe what they do. I'm interested in whether people's own religious beliefs determine what they vote.

Well in DMC4 the Order was big on angels so I think its safe to say angels exist. As for Heaven and God....that I don't know. I don't think it follows the Christian definition though. More like a combination of beliefs.

In this case, if angels exist, Heaven also exists as the place they reside. So if you think angels exist, choose the first option.

 

[Meg]

@ darkslayer-I thought the mangas weren't considered canon? :huh: Or was that the novels? Either way this is a good thread. I never really thought about it before.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

I have no religion to follow. I'm not atheist, but I don't actively follow a religion.

I think the evidence is fairly plain. DMC3, the Fallen enemies. Their description even states that they are fallen angels.

 

[moseslmpg]

The mangas are considered canon. But, anyway, you mentioned that maybe a different type of God exists in DMC. Would you care to elaborate?

I have no religion to follow. I'm not atheist, but I don't actively follow a religion.

I think the evidence is fairly plain. DMC3, the Fallen enemies. Their description even states that they are fallen angels.

Alright. No one has to state their religious beliefs, but I would be interested if they were informing their decision. I know a lot of Bayonetta fans were originally very uncomfortable with fighting angels, until they were revealed to be "not real angels," monsters underneath.

I think you misread the Fallen profile though. It is a common mistake. It says that they fell from grace (as in, fell from favor) for deceiving their enemies.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

The mangas are considered canon. But, anyway, you mentioned that maybe a different type of God exists in DMC. Would you care to elaborate?

I have something to say.

I was always under the impression that Mundus himself was a god. A god of the underworld. Meaning that there had to be an opposite to him that rules over heaven, with a third god ruling over the chaos in between, AKA the human world.

 

[moseslmpg]

Well, like I said, in this case I specifically mean a creator God. Hell existed before Mundus, as per the DMC1 booklet, so he isn't a god in that sense. He is very powerful, but not omnipotent.

 

[Meg]

The mangas are considered canon. But, anyway, you mentioned that maybe a different type of God exists in DMC. Would you care to elaborate?

Ok thanks for clearing that up

Well the way I see it if DMC followed the Christian idea of Heaven and Hell then the king of the underworld would be Satan, not Mundus. I think God in DMC isn't the Christian God. So I think that DMC doesn't follow one specific definition of Heaven, Hell, demons, and angels. More like it draws from several myths and religions.

 

[moseslmpg]

Well, Hell and demons are pretty specifically Judeo-Christian, so it seems to be based mainly on Christianity rather than Norse or Greek mythology for instance.

What type of God do you think exists in DMC? Did he create all the worlds, or just the human world, etc.?

 

[darkslayer13]

@ darkslayer-I thought the mangas weren't considered canon? :huh: Or was that the novels? Either way this is a good thread. I never really thought about it before.

i think the dmc3 manga is supposed to be canon. the only thing we can say is definitely not canon is the dmc1 novel because it contradicts dmc3. the dmc2 novel seems to have some minor contradictions as well so it can't really be counted. but the manga dose not contradict any establised facts that i know of and Capcom has not said it is not canon so we can count it.

if there are fallen angels there have to be normal ones but wherever they come from is not hell's opposite like heaven would be ( since earth fills that role) so i guess that would mean they would come from some other place. you could call it heaven but it wouldn't really fit the definition. ( since heaven is generally associated with light and good and all those other things that are not found in hell.) that and the dmc universe doesn't seem like a place that would have a paradise.

so i guess that means, angels but no heaven and probably no god.

 

[moseslmpg]

Angels and no Heaven doesn't really work though, because they would have to be in the human world, or the demon world, in which case all the characters would interact with them.

If you say they're invisible or something, I would consider that realm of invisibility as a Heaven.

Also, to people who vote for Heaven and angels, but no God: Where did the angels and Heaven come from?

 

[Meg]

Yes but many mythologies have an underworld and evil beings. Just cause its called Hell and demons doesn't mean it follows Christianity. They could have called them that just because they're the most recognizable terms for those things.

As far as what kind of God exists in DMC? I would say an all powerful creator. Although I find it hard to believe all demons are fallen angels because if that was so why'd Sparda save mankind? Seems odd.

 

[moseslmpg]

Yes but many mythologies have an underworld and evil beings. Just cause its called Hell and demons doesn't mean it follows Christianity. They could have called them that just because they're the most recognizable terms for those things.

That would constitute Christianity though, just by the labels. Demons live there, bad people are punished there, etc. I think Christianity is one of the few religions that have the denizenz of the underworld as actively evil and trying to hurt humans, while Greek mythology has them as shades of their former selves, not dangerous per se.

As far as what kind of God exists in DMC? I would say an all powerful creator. Although I find it hard to believe all demons are fallen angels because if that was so why'd Sparda save mankind? Seems odd.

If angels can fall, who's to say they can't ascend once they realize their loss? God's Demon by Wayne Barlowe is an interesting exploration of just such an idea. Check it out.

 

[Meg]

I'm not saying Christianity didn't inspire the DMC universe, but I'm saying that I don't think it was the only thing.

And good point about Sparda.

EDIT: I'd like to know what you think, moses

 

[darkslayer13]

Angels and no Heaven doesn't really work though, because they would have to be in the human world, or the demon world, in which case all the characters would interact with them.

If you say they're invisible or something, I would consider that realm of invisibility as a Heaven.

Also, to people who vote for Heaven and angels, but no God: Where did the angels and Heaven come from?

they would exist in a third place but it wouldn't fit the definition of heaven. ( having something that we would call and angel doesn't make it heaven) heaven is supposed to be a paradise a world of light that is hell's opposite(any place that is not that is not heaven). the human world is hell's opposite in the dmc universe ( the manga says is but the rest of dmc hints it alot. humans are constantly treated as the opposite of demons.)

as for the location of this particular world well since hell is the world of darkness and the human world is the world of light a third world would be neutral. a world like that would probably be somewhere in between.

 

[moseslmpg]

Canonically, I don't think that Heaven or angels or God exists in the Christian sense, at all. Like DS said, the light world is ours, and the dark world is the demons'. I think that helps contribute to the bleakness of the DMC world, knowing that humans are the only real force for good in the world.

I do think that people in the DMC universe believe in angels, but I think they are wrong. Just as we don't know if they exist in our world, neither do the humans in DMC know whether they exist.

Of course I have my own esoteric interpretation of the DMC world, based on the manga and informed by Gnostic and Hermetic traditions. But my vote in this context is no.

they would exist in a third place but it wouldn't fit the definition of heaven. ( having something that we would call and angel doesn't make it heaven) heaven is supposed to be a paradise a world of light that is hell's opposite(any place that is not that is not heaven). the human world is hell's opposite in the dmc universe ( the manga says is but the rest of dmc hints it alot. humans are constantly treated as the opposite of demons.)

as for the location of this particular world well since hell is the world of darkness and the human world is the world of light a third world would be neutral. a world like that would probably be somewhere in between.

If the angels aren't of the light, and if they aren't in opposition to demons, then in what sense are they angels, and why even believe they exist?

I don't know if a neutral world is supported by the manga, but even if it was, why would the angels live there as opposed to the humans? It sounds like you think neither Heaven nor angels exist.

 

[Meg]

Of course I have my own esoteric interpretation of the DMC world, based on the manga and informed by Gnostic and Hermetic traditions. But my vote in this context is no.

Please share.