If anyone but Batman

[absolitude]

so it's the dark and broody talk, batman isn't always like that

adam west's batman was the friendly neighborhood guy with a big KAPOWWW on each punch and kick

keaton's first batman was dark and mysterious, but isn't brooding, and wayne was a acting properly as a billionaire should

keaton' batman returns was also dark and isn't brooding, and the wayne is a more serious dude but maintains the billionaire attitude

kilmer's batman was tough manly looking and cool, isn't dark nor brooding, his wayne was more playboy-ish if i remembered

clooney's batman was cheery and has a bat-nipple and bat-master card, his wayne was more or less the same

bale's batman begins was dark, menacing and indeed brooding, his wayne was brooding

bale's tdk was a serious one but isn't so dark nor brooding, his wayne was more of a business man

bale's tdkr was very brooding but not dark, his wayne was struggling and was more of a fighter

now affleck's batman and wayne, pretty sure they're dark and brooding..

i'm not into the comics and forgot about tas, but none of them was flat and boring i think.. only the ones on the arkham games, which were neither dark nor brooding, the environment and atmosphere was dark, but batman in it was just batman..

 

[berto]

The problem with trying to do anything besides dark with Batman is that Batman is a character that thrives in scaring his opponents. A Batman that doesn't scare the bad guy is a guy in a bat costume and that is just stupid. I agree that he doesn't have to be broody, dark doesn't equate to broody, but straight faced serious and none comical do, especially because dark comical is what the Joker is. From my point of view dark is I am the night and broody is my parents are dead, and there is room for both but it's been a mix of both for a long time now and most comics I read seem to need the angst or they're just not happy.

I think that another part that aggravates the situation is just how long this has been going on. Batman has been doing his dark thing for a long time, now, decades, and it's getting old. The want for something new is natural when the formula is this overused. Actually, the fact that's it's been successful this long is an attestment to how good the work they've done with such a limiting range of parameters for the character, I mean as good a character is there is only so much you can do with it yet there are a lot of excellent Batman stories in most medias (in all fairness there are probably ten times more crap ones but we usually filter out the bad with time).

I do think that Batman could use a bit of an alteration like how Superman got with Man of Steel, but, just like that situation, when it happens there will be a huge backlash of people who will cry foul and go on line to scream about how what's different is not in the spirit of the character, it's the way it is. People want change but not really, we all know that. Then again, there've been so many versions of Batman, maybe there won't be such an out rage for him.

 

[Jak]

the only reason batman is so beloeved is because of his supporting cast and how they bounce off of him. and the commentary that each side character brings whenever they interact with him. case and point, robin and nightwing, whenever they banter with bruce. one of my characters in arkham knight is nightwing, because he's always teasing bruce about how stoek he is and that he's too broody for his taste (basically saying what we would say to him if we had the balls to do so in real life)

 

[ROCKMAN X]

It's not so much I want him to be written as a bright character, rather I just want to see something written about him that's DIFFERENT from the norm of the batman stories.

Why can't Batman be everything? why can't he be brooding,dark,happy&sad when he needs to be? the best thing about TAS Batman is that he's not an emotionless robot he's very much human.. he can be sad,angry,serious when the situation needs him to be the video game batman is just bland&emotionless.

Batman's kind of a bat b!tch. I mean, so many other heroes have went through tragedy, yet doesn't act the way he does. He's a bit of a whiner.

I kinda understand where you're from.. Batman seriously needs to "Get over" his parent's death or at least the writers need to stop bringing that plot point/origin story again&again as it just makes batman look like a baby who can't get over something,

 

[Director Bison]

I kinda understand where you're from.. Batman seriously needs to "Get over" his parent's death or at least the writers need to stop bringing that plot point/origin story again&again as it just makes batman look like a baby who can't get over something,

while i agree that the writers should bringing it up less
i don't think Batman can/should get over being traumatized like that
i mean that's the whole reason he's Batman
and he's not exactly 100% sane

 

[absolitude]

i mentioned that there are many other characters resembles batman as in the dark and broody thing, but now i have doubts..

and now i can only come up with spawn, sephiroth, nomak and nuada, and i'm not really sure bout them..

 

[DragonMaster2010]

i mentioned that there are many other characters resembles batman as in the dark and broody thing, but now i have doubts..

and now i can only come up with spawn, sephiroth, nomak and nuada, and i'm not really sure bout them..

Rorschach?

 

[WolfOD64]

Batman's kind of a bat b!tch. I mean, so many other heroes have went through tragedy, yet doesn't act the way he does.

You mean like Terry McGuiness?

 

[Innsmouth]

Well this topic had my head spin. When characters are cheery and easygoing they are brushed off like "shallow, dumb" and they need to be more "edgy, dark and brooding". But when characters are actually brooding and dark, they should be "more fun, enjoyable and humorous." Guess in the end grass is always greener on another side.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

See, this is precisely why Terry McGuiness became my favorite Batman. Not only did him being adolescent, flawed, and amateurish make him more relatable (in stark contrast to the infallable ultra-genius comprising of latter-day Bruce Wayne), but he's also aged as a more charismatic Batman over the years.

He shifts between brooding, snarkiness, malevolence and caution all the time, and comes off as far more organic of a character as a result.

And then they royally screwed it all up by making him Bruce's son...

 

[Innsmouth]

@VampireWicked I think problem is that most medial communities are suffering from overeating and starting to come up with abstract plots that THEY think can improve franchises. People should learn either accept characters for what they are or leave franchises alone.

 

[WolfOD64]

Well this topic had my head spin. When characters are cheery and easygoing they are brushed off like "shallow, dumb" and they need to be more "edgy, dark and brooding". But when characters are actually brooding and dark, they should be "more fun, enjoyable and humorous." Guess in the end grass is always greener on another side.

The trick is being smart and talented enough to make a character who encompasses a variety of emotions, so he isn't just written under the narrative umbrella of one tone or gimmick of their personality. If you have a character who is one-note and displaying one trait all the time, the end result is a character like this:

Or this:

But by applying more emotional versatility and scenarios that develop and show different sides of the character, you get borderline-human characters like this:

Or This:

The difference between a one-note caricature and a character displaying a variety of emotions is like night and day.

 

[Innsmouth]

@WolfOD64
Well, like I said double standards all the way. Characters that aren't "dark and broody" are casted as "caricatures". While Batman suddenly have to make a clown of himself to please few fans who aren't "satisfied" by his attitude.

 

[WolfOD64]

Well, like I said double standards all the way. Characters that aren't "dark and broody" are casted as "caricatures". While Batman suddenly have to make a clown of himself to please few fans who aren't "satisfied" by his attitude.

And like I said, being dark and brooding on a 100% constant basis can turn a character into a one-note caricature just as easily. Take a look at half the characters Square Enix passes off as Final Fantasy protagonists: one-note mannequins that express about one emotion per hour, and that emotion boiling down to melancholy, dreary, and borderline inhuman characteristics.

Batman's been partially infected with this trend in recent years. Being all tightened-up and edgy, without stopping on occasion to express other emotions hasn't done him any good in comparison to other superheroes. I mean, for Christ's sake, look at Daredevil. Look how he bounces between caution, wittiness, charm, contempt, childish naievity and world-weariness....he displays more characterization in one episode of the Netflix TV show than Batman does during the entirety of Arkham Knight.

No one's ducking under any kind of double-standard. It's not a crime to want the well-written and emotionally versatile Batman from the Animated Series and beyond instead of the bland automaton we're getting from EVERY Batman outlet nowadays.

 

[Innsmouth]

And like I said, being dark and brooding on a 100% constant basis can turn a character into a one-note caricature just as easily. Take a look at half the characters Square Enix passes off as Final Fantasy protagonists: one-note mannequins that express about one emotion per hour, and that emotion boiling down to melancholy, dreary, and borderline inhuman characteristics.

Batman's been partially infected with this trend in recent years. Being all tightened-up and edgy, without stopping on occasion to express other emotions hasn't done him any good in comparison to other superheroes. I mean, for Christ's sake, look at Daredevil. Look how he bounces between caution, wittiness, charm, contempt, childish naievity and world-weariness....he displays more characterization in one episode of the Netflix TV show than Batman does during the entirety of Arkham Knight.

No one's ducking under any kind of double-standard. It's not a crime to want the well-written and emotionally versatile Batman from the Animated Series and beyond instead of the bland automaton we're getting from EVERY Batman outlet nowadays.

Batman was never simple "dark and broody". It's rather shallow interpretation and lack of knowledge of the franchise. And honestly Batman characterisation is smallest problem with Arkham knight writing.. Also not stopping to express emotion? If you talking about Arkham Knight, you obviously never played it to the end.
Like I said, you just shown bunch of characters you don't like and bunch of characters you like and claimed that one written better than the other, ignoring facts that for example in Berserk games Guts was shown as empty shallow power fantasy for kids

 

[WolfOD64]

Batman was never simple "dark and broody". It's rather shallow interpretation and lack of knowledge of the franchise.

I think, if anything, hating Batman's more modern interpretations would demonstrate knowledge of the franchise, seeing as the comparisons are made to incarnations of the character in earlier comics like Knightfall and Haunted Knight, shows like The Animated Series and Beyond, and movies like Batman '89....you know, that funny thing called the entire Batman franchise.

So....where's the lack of knowledge? If you're getting the basis of Batman's persona solely from Arkham Knight, then I think you're the only one displaying a minimal interpretation and knowledge of the franchise, seeing how minuscule the Arkham games serve as an outlook the Dark Knight as a character.

That's like looking to the Marvel Cinematic Universe for 100% accurate depictions and mythos of characters like Thor and Captain America. That is beyond casual.

And honestly Batman characterisation is smallest problem with Arkham knight writing.. Also not stopping to express emotion? If you talking about Arkham Knight, you obviously never played it to the end.

How Batman acts in scripted cutscenes and how he acts in-game---performing medial errands, interacting with NPC's, and thinking aloud so the player can hear---are two very different things.

That's what people are arguing here. Don't muddy the water with different subjects.

Like I said, you just shown bunch of characters you don't like and bunch of characters you like and claimed that one written better than the other

It wasn't a comparison between characters I like and don't like. It's a comparison of which ones are versatile and varied in tone.

You have one-note characters like Dante and Jack Sparrow---two characters I've grown to like in some of their incarnations, but have been butchered by having one element of their characterization be exaggerated to the point of absurdity to where it devours every semblance of character that they have, until that gimmick IS their character.

And then you have more rounded and balanced characters like Guts, or Tony Montana---who are defined by many staple qualities and characteristics, but constantly swan-dive into other states of emotion or mentalities, depending on the situations they're put in. In essence, they display a variety of human emotions instead of being caged into one, gimmicky aspect of their personality---and come off as more organic characters as a result, instead of cardboard cutouts like the two aforementioned culprits, Jack and Dante.

I could easily have picked characters from things I don't like---Spike Spiegel, Cullen Bohannon, Max Payne, John Constantine, Jack Ryan---characters and franchises I don't particularly care for, but still acknowledge for having very organic, and human portrayals as characters,

This isn't a contest of popularity, it's one of quality...one that shallow characters like Dante and Jack Sparrow would likely crawl at the bottom of, given how barebones and 2-dimensional they are.

ignoring facts that for example in Berserk games Guts was shown as empty shallow power fantasy for kids

I...

I'm just....

There has to be some kind of mistake. You must realize the blatant inaccuracy in practically everything you've just said.

"ignoring facts that for example in Berserk games"

What games? These games?
Do you think that Berserk is just a series of games? Do you think that the games are a basis for the series' universe as a whole...and if so, are you even aware that there are like two games, not counting the trading card game that Konami makes?

"Guts was shown as empty shallow power fantasy for kids"

Guts. Was. A power fantasy?

How? In what way?

No person who has EVER read Berserk has even ONCE hoped to be anything or do anything like Guts. For reference, this is the same man born from the mangled innards of his carcass mother, beaten and bred into a child-soldier by a stepfather who also scarred him by selling him into sex slavery, who becomes a constant fugitive suffering from a cursed brand etched in his flesh that makes him a constant target for monsters in a dark fantasy world, making it so he has to be on the run constantly, fighting on the borders of his health and sanity.

This man is not well. He's not sane, he can't eat, or sleep, or live with a sane peace of mind while constantly looking over his shoulder for hulking tentacle demons and monstrous apostles ready to ravage his body and rape his corpse...all while being visited by constantly by traumatic nightmares that send him into murderous frenzies that he can't control or prevent, as indicated by the series' own name. He's riddled with flaws, wrought with selfishness and denial, and embued with a vile and sullied sense of harsh justice on everything he sees---sinner and innocent alike.

He's missing an eye, and arm, cannot live outside of the metal shell of the Berserker armor, and is currently losing his eye-sight.

Guts? A power fantasy?

Nobody wants to be Guts. NOBODY. Not hardcore fans, not casual bystanders, not complete strangers to the series.

He's constantly over his head, making every mistake possible before he achieves any kind of victory, every fight he engages in either permanently cripples or nearly kills him, and he's come close to accidentally killing his own spouse twice.

Oh, yeah...he's right up there with Duke Nukem and Dante. Pure paragons of what the male need for testosterone.

And I don't know what made me crack a rib from laughter more: the word "empty", "shallow", "power fantasy", or "for kids."

"FOR KIDS."

"FOR KIDS."

​

I---I just....I don't even...

WHAT?

Your lack of knoweledge about Berserk as a franchise, as a series, as an essence...is almost as laughable as your attempts to wear it on your sleeve like a credible point in your argument, and listening to it is like listening to a blind man gush about how nice the sky looks. It's almost too abysmally sad of a sight to laugh at.

Dude...Innsmouth...please.

Do some research next time. For me, at least? I'll lose all function of my lungs if I laugh this hard ever again.

 

[Innsmouth]

I think, if anything, hating Batman's more modern interpretations would demonstrate knowledge of the franchise, seeing as the comparisons are made to incarnations of the character in earlier comics like Knightfall and Haunted Knight, shows like The Animated Series and Beyond, and movies like Batman '89....you know, that funny thing called the entire Batman franchise.

So....where's the lack of knowledge? If you're getting the basis of Batman's persona solely from Arkham Knight, then I think you're the only one displaying a minimal interpretation and knowledge of the franchise, seeing how minuscule the Arkham games serve as an outlook the Dark Knight as a character.

If you watched beyond, you would knew that batman was broody, grumpy and disgruntled old man in it.So that makes me question, did you REALLY watched it or just picked couple titles of wikipedia? Batman was never sunshiny type of guy, aside from small side interpretations, one film, and whole comedy with adam west. Thats part of his character. And people either accept characters for what they are or just leave franchise be, since nobody is interests in hearing moaning and complaining about how characters should be in someone's head.

How Batman acts in scripted cutscenes and how he acts in-game---performing medial errands, interacting with NPC's, and thinking aloud so the player can hear---are two very different things.

you blatantly ignored scenes where Batman breaks over Barbara's death, his reminiscence of her and his biggest nightmares being about losing her and Todd. So seriously, you just ignore facts to support your disgruntled attempts to justify hate for a character.

It wasn't a comparison between characters I like and don't like. It's a comparison of which ones are versatile and varied in tone.

Keep telling this to yourself you get far with it. You know in the end there is truth that is called "Drama is easy". It's easy to come up with teary-jerking characters with tragic story who were traumatised by it. But characters with wit who people enjoy. Nether Dante nor Jack are completely one dimensional. It just that you prefer to revel in your spite and moan how terrible they are ignoring everything that proves you otherwise. One dimensional characters are Mundus, Sanctus if we talking about DMC, or characters like most ones in God of War.

What games? These games?
Do you think that Berserk is just a series of games? Do you think that the games are a basis for the series' universe as a whole...and if so, are you even aware that there are like two games, not counting the trading card game that Konami makes?

There were two games, in both he presented like grumpy badass who slices anything that moves. Thats it. So put down your glasses. Two games is already franchise, if you didn't know it. And each part of the medium can be judged outside of the franchise. So yeah, in those 2 games he's shallow power fantasy for kids, if you didn't knew it. (thats not talking about how he more and more becomes shallow shell of himself in manga, because it's writer can't come up with anything to justify him as a character since ever he made him babysitter.)

 

[WolfOD64]

If you watched beyond, you would knew that batman was broody, grumpy and disgruntled old man in it.So that makes me question, did you REALLY watched it or just picked couple titles of wikipedia?

Except for the fact that he was grumpy and disgruntled for comedic effect, and more often than not, his flat and dispassionate nature was often played up against Terry's hot-blooded and reckless attitude for laughs. Not to mention that Bruce cracked dry and dark humor all the time in the show.

Batman was never sunshiny type of guy

And no one is saying he is or should be. Next.

aside from small side interpretations, one film, and whole comedy with adam west. Thats part of his character. And people either accept characters for what they are or just leave franchise be, since nobody is interests in hearing moaning and complaining about how characters should be in someone's head.

Then why does Batman have a black, and brutal sense of humor and intimidation in The Dark Knight Returns? Why does he bounce between cautious, sarcastic, melancholy, and witty in The Animated Series? Why does Batman express a multitude of one-liners and sarcasm that irritates characters like Nightwing and Barbara Gordon in works by Jeph Loeb and Scott Snyder?

Being brooding and menacing is not Batman's entire character....it's part of his character. Authors, comic artists, and directors that have done the character justice have known that for years, but that integral fact about him seems to glide over the heads of fanboys everywhere.

you blatantly ignored scenes where Batman breaks over Barbara's death, his reminiscence of her and his biggest nightmares being about losing her and Todd. So seriously, you just ignore facts to support your disgruntled attempts to justify hate for a character.

All those scenes are scripted into the game's story. I was talking about Batman's actions and interactions with characters in gameplay. You've played the game, right? You know how he interacts with characters between missions and in small conversations?

That's what I'm talking about. That's what everyone on this THREAD is talking about. Congratulations on cartwheeling into the party too late.

Keep telling this to yourself you get far with it. You know in the end there is truth that is called "Drama is easy". It's easy to come up with teary-jerking characters with tragic story who were traumatised by it.

Isn't this after I already bemoaned Square Enix for dishing out the same mopey characters in every game?

Also...using the examples I used as a basis...how is Tony Montana a "tragic or tear-jerking character"? I mean, he is the guy who inspired the over-the-top insanity and absurd criminal freedom the Grand Theft Auto games. You are aware of that, right?

And yes, it's easy to come up with sobstory, dramatic characters. They're conjured up on Deviantart and Fanfiction.net every hour of the day.

You know what's not easy to conjure up? Characters that are well-rounded with believable traits, and relatable qualities....ones that aren't sheltered under whatever personality gimmick the writer has conceived for them, in an attempt constantly pander to comedic or overdramatic effect.

They're called...characters. I know, I never thought I would have to explain this to someone.
Joseph Campbell's probably rolling like a snowball in his grave right now.

But characters with wit who people enjoy. Nether Dante nor Jack are completely one dimensional. It just that you prefer to revel in your spite and moan how terrible they are ignoring everything that proves you otherwise.

So people like Tony Montana, basically. Who are witty and don't take themselves seriously, but remain well-written and emotionally-versatile at the same time.

And neither Jack nor Dante started as one-dimensional characters. They transformed into ones overtime thanks to the writer's homing in one aspect of their characterization like wasps, and running with it until they were out of air. Don't believe me? Johnny Depp himself said that he wouldn't return for another film if the writers didn't improve his character in a sequel.

Even he's sick of the way the character is being hammed up.

There were two games, in both he presented like grumpy badass who slices anything that moves.

I think the word you're looking for is "murderous psychotic". He maintains an anti-social and brittle facade to keep people away from him...partially because of the monsters hounding him, and also because of his violated trust of other people after the events of the Eclipse.

Really, calling him a "grumpy badass" while ignoring the context of his origins is like calling Gabriel Belmont "needlessly angry" after everything that happened to him.

Besides, analyzing a series from a pair of video-game spin-offs isn't even close to

Two games is already franchise, if you didn't know it. And each part of the medium can be judged outside of the franchise.

>Wants to discuss characters and franchise as a whole
>Uses one non-canon game, and one loosely-adapted spin-off

This is like if I tried to analyze the sheer depth and vast, incomprehensible lore of Vampire Hunter D and all of its novels, dating back to 1983...just by playing the arcade-style beat-em up on the PS1.

Your credibility is shrinking really quickly, friend.

So yeah, in those 2 games he's shallow power fantasy for kids, if you didn't knew it. (thats not talking about how he more and more becomes shallow shell of himself in manga, because it's writer can't come up with anything to justify him as a character since ever he made him babysitter.)

How. How is he a power fantasy for kids. You tell me. When has Guts EVER been written as a role-model for kids or boys? You realize Berserk is a Seinen, right?

And how exactly does the author diminish Guts' role as a character in the narrative? Because he "babysits" comrades, now? You know...the same kind of comrades he didn't think he would ever have again because of what happened during the Eclipse?

Nothing you say about Berserk makes a lick of sense. You sound like a native of an indigenous tribe who saw a plane pass over his village for the first time, and is now trying to explain it through indiscernible, misinformed gibberish.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

As someone who has played both of the Berserk games, and has a pretty demanding handle on the manga's story, those games were oddly accurate, despite being games, and Guts was definitely more than just a grump the whole time. He's certainly got his extremely anti-social behavior, but he was never above making sardonic quips and showing he cared. Guts wasn't just a screaming machine of whirling black death, unless you were solely looking at the gameplay, where as a hack 'n' slash all you did was literally hack, and to quite a great degree, slash. Heck, that's even extremely authentic to the character because when he gets into fights he gets super serious.

I'm wondering, Innsmouth, if you're getting confused with a discussion of ludonarrative dissonance, though.

 

[Innsmouth]

Except for the fact that he was grumpy and disgruntled for comedic effect, and more often than not, his flat and dispassionate nature was often played up against Terry's hot-blooded and reckless attitude for laughs. Not to mention that Bruce cracked dry and dark humor all the time in the show.

Except first thing he did was telling Terry to get off and never put suit again, and also he lost all his friends and lovers and was living alone and forgotten by almost everyone.

Then why does Batman have a black, and brutal sense of humor and intimidation in The Dark Knight Returns? Why does he bounce between cautious, sarcastic, melancholy, and witty in The Animated Series? Why does Batman express a multitude of one-liners and sarcasm that irritates characters like Nightwing and Barbara Gordon in works by Jeph Loeb and Scott Snyder?

Being brooding and menacing is not Batman's entire character....it's part of his character. Authors, comic artists, and directors that have done the character justice have known that for years, but that integral fact about him seems to glide over the heads of fanboys everywhere.

Batman was never partially wise-cracking. Non in animated series not in films (well except for Batman & Robin, which is probably by far worst movie ever made. And definitely not when whole town was going down in flames. Besides AK had enough one liners except they were far between endless driving sessions.

All those scenes are scripted into the game's story. I was talking about Batman's actions and interactions with characters in gameplay. You've played the game, right? You know how he interacts with characters between missions and in small conversations?
That's what I'm talking about. That's what everyone on this THREAD is talking about. Congratulations on cartwheeling into the party too late.

There isn't much to talk about. He delivered one liners , which were mostly when he confronted actual people. Considering 70% of games you shoot unpiloted tanks there isn't much point in talking with them.

Isn't this after I already bemoaned Square Enix for dishing out the same mopey characters in every game?

Also...using the examples I used as a basis...how is Tony Montana a "tragic or tear-jerking character"? I mean, he is the guy who inspired the over-the-top insanity and absurd criminal freedom the Grand Theft Auto games. You are aware of that, right?

Whole Guts character was interesting as long as chemistry between him and other characters was present. But now, its gone. He only lives by his dramatic background, but doesn't really functions in new team as decent character.

You know what's not easy to conjure up? Characters that are well-rounded with believable traits, and relatable qualities....ones that aren't sheltered under whatever personality gimmick the writer has conceived for them, in an attempt constantly pander to comedic or overdramatic effect.

They're called...characters. I know, I never thought I would have to explain this to someone.
Joseph Campbell's probably rolling like a snowball in his grave right now.

Because they are not needed. News flash. If you want believable people, go outside and talk to them instead of complaining about stylised figures in games. There is whole world of them. Charactres are interesting because they go beyond realism and posses number of stylised trait, otherwise we should just sit and watch documentaries.

And neither Jack nor Dante started as one-dimensional characters. They transformed into ones overtime thanks to the writer's homing in one aspect of their characterization like wasps, and running with it until they were out of air. Don't believe me? Johnny Depp himself said that he wouldn't return for another film if the writers didn't improve his character in a sequel.

Time to hit real world: http://variety.com/2015/film/news/p...men-tell-no-tales-johnny-depp-d23-1201571012/

I think the word you're looking for is "murderous psychotic". He maintains an anti-social and brittle facade to keep people away from him...partially because of the monsters hounding him, and also because of his violated trust of other people after the events of the Eclipse.

Really, calling him a "grumpy badass" while ignoring the context of his origins is like calling Gabriel Belmont "needlessly angry" after everything that happened to him..

HEre's a thing: origin story is only background of character. Characters may possess same origin but be different. And he never acted as murderous psychotic except of few instances in very first act. So duh.

>Wants to discuss characters and franchise as a whole
>Uses one non-canon game, and one loosely-adapted spin-off

First is canon and tied to manga and second is partial adaptations, so deep knowledge there, for a fan of franchise

Nothing you say about Berserk makes a lick of sense. You sound like a native of an indigenous tribe who saw a plane pass over his village for the first time, and is now trying to explain it through indiscernible, misinformed gibberish.

Like I said no amount of fan boyish rant changes facts. He basically turned into strong supporting figure, who from time to times struggles with control of his armour and has to rely on his team. He lost all his conflicting features and they barely mentioned as part of his past. Basically what left is shallow copy of his former self who only there to swing sword and look cool. And yes I read manga until gibberish kraken strolling before dropping it for good. Which started as strong history drama with interesting characters ended as shallow attempt at fantasy writing without any meaningful arcs for decades now. So put off glasses, truth is still out there.

As someone who has played both of the Berserk games, and has a pretty demanding handle on the manga's story, those games were oddly accurate, despite being games, and Guts was definitely more than just a grump the whole time. He's certainly got his extremely anti-social behavior, but he was never above making sardonic quips and showing he cared. Guts wasn't just a screaming machine of whirling black death, unless you were solely looking at the gameplay, where as a hack 'n' slash all you did was literally hack, and to quite a great degree, slash. Heck, that's even extremely authentic to the character because when he gets into fights he gets super serious.

Which makes me wonder how good you remember second game than. Because he barely talks in game leaving most of talking to Puck and most of the time he acts exactly as you described, as "screaming mating of death". He's much more more passive observer in this game than Batman in his last one (namely reason for all of this discussion)