Hiroyuki "Japanese for FAIL" Kobayashi made DMC4 to appeal to Women (gamers)

[Dante's Stalker]

Kyrie is saved by an effeminate man-child rather than a macho man, thus implying that women are weaker than even the softest, sissiest of men.

EXACTLY! Oh my gosh! A guy who finally understands how women think!
Yeah...okay Nero is pretty to look at, but he's NOT all that, because Dante is! I've been bantering about Nero non-stop (and with non-stop I mean whenever he's mentioned I naturally diss on him) because he's too emo, and the idea of him possibly outshining Dante? I know Dante's character is really annoying and a bit chauvinistic (but then he was pretty chauvinistic in DMC3 too, so I felt they kept him IC there), but he's got the package deal to strut his stuff about. The fact that they tried to have Nero show him up is just ridiculous.

Yeah, with the whole argument about Nero just being a teenager, I get that. But they exaggerated it too much. Dante was still pretty much a teen in DMC3 and he squirted some, AND he didn't make it look sissy at all. Nero was just a rough patchwork of DMC past - he's barely got any taunts of his own, most of them are derived either from Dante or Vergil, and oh well we'll throw a human girl and love into the mix and make lots of references to Sparda.

And what DID happen to Eva? She was never mentioned, not even once, and I can't help but think that it would have been a different story all together if Dante had remained in the role of main protagonist.

I think I've been bashing DMC4 quite a bit - I'm now convinced that Nero was originally Vergil, but just before they were done with production somebody went 'hey...you know Vergil seems kinda...OOC...don't you think?' and the team went 'Let's change it before we evoke the hate of Vergil fans!' I think when Koba said he spent a lot of time and effort on creating Nero's character, what he was really saying was that it took him a ****load of time to change details of Vergil until he no longer looked like Vergil (so much) and think up some random name that sounds better than Gilver and oh, let's throw a vague 'backstory' in here to 'explain' Nero's origins.

Anyway. There was too much boobs and...stuff... flashing about. If Koba really was centered on making the fangirls happy, he damn well should have thrown in a few scenes with Dante and Nero shirtless (NOT together, damn yaoi freaks) What makes a girl squee more than seeing her hero's abs?!
I think the whole 'appeal to the fangirls' thing is a load of BS. I didn't like any of the females in DMC4, save for Kyrie, and that's only because it would have driven me insane if she had to respond to Nero every time. The whole game would have consisted of 'KYRIEEEEE! 'NEROOOOO!' 'KYRIEEEEEEEE!' 'NEEEERRROOOOOOOOO!'
I mean gah damn it, he really screwed it up!

If he wanted to appeal to girl gamers, then Hideki sure did one hell of a job with Bayonetta to show Koba HOW IT'S DONE!

Damn DMC4 to hell. And damn Koba for being so dim.

Sorry if I didn't make much sense, I'm pretty ticked off.

 

[moseslmpg]

@Durxam

Vergil was never even mentioned in DMC4.

DMC4 was toned down and FF-ized. Kobayashi stated it plain as day that they shied away from gore and violence, and it is implied that dark themes were also excluded. If you can't see that, sounds like a personal problem to me, but we aren't all just hating for no reason.

It was not dark (note the blazing sunshine during most of the game), it was not gothic (note the lack of gothic architecture and associated themes), and it definitely wasn't a throwback to DMC1 except (some of the) music, which Koba probably had no influence over. The only medieval theme I can count is a damsel in distress and maybe some knights.

I will say, I think DMC4 is a throwback to DMC2 in terms of it being a non sequitur and disappointing any of the fans who actually care about the series.

 

[Durxom]

Umm...I don't know how you missed the huge obvious hints that Vergil was Nero's Devil Bringer/DT but ok...

And no, the game had no FF influences at all....and there was never any gore in any of the other games besides making oozeing or that part about being inside of the Leviathan. It kept all of the gothic(ok maybe not gothic exactly), but medieval style architecture as all of the other titles.

And DMC4 was a huge throwback to DMC1, remixed songs, they brought back Frosts and Assaults from DMC1, as well the Scarecrows resembling/acting like the Marionettes, huge stone "final" boss, and many of the areas resembling parts from DMC1 as well. I don't know what else they could have done to make it even more of a throwback.

And yes..most people are hating on it for no reason..or little reason at that. Nero, while some might not have liked him, added new gameplay, and one of, if not the deepest story in the franchise, the gameplay overall was fine tuned, allowing Dante all his old moves plus the ability to switch on the fly. The only downside that I can see is the backtracking, but even then, the series is know for backtracking as is it's predesscor, Resident Evil. You can not simply push aside the tower of backtrac...i mean Temin-ni-gru.

/end venting and explanation

x-x

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Umm...I don't know how you missed the huge obvious hints that Vergil was Nero's Devil Bringer/DT but ok...

Y'see, that ain't exactly Vergil. It's Vergil-esque, and reminds me a BIT of him, but that's it.

And no, the game had no FF influences at all....and there was never any gore in any of the other games besides making oozeing or that part about being inside of the Leviathan. It kept all of the gothic(ok maybe not gothic exactly), but medieval style architecture as all of the other titles.

This I don't exactly agree with either. DMC1 had the fricking biological hell. I'm pretty sure that was rather gory, couple with the way Griffon died, and a lot of the enemies bled profusely when killed. The Blades come to mind after finishing them with a critical hit, in which they spurted blood everywhere while dieing.

And DMC4 was a huge throwback to DMC1, remixed songs, they brought back Frosts and Assaults from DMC1, as well the Scarecrows resembling/acting like the Marionettes, huge stone "final" boss, and many of the areas resembling parts from DMC1 as well. I don't know what else they could have done to make it even more of a throwback.

Not really. It's not really much of a throwback. Just because they brought back a couple enemies (the Assaults are new, actually. The Blade demons are what you're thinking about) and a couple demons look like ones from DMC1 doesn't constitute a throwback.

I also didn't see the resemblance of areas from DMC1 to DMC4, so... Yeah. Not much can be said other than: No, the environments aren't throwbacks.

And yes..most people are hating on it for no reason..or little reason at that. Nero, while some might not have liked him, added new gameplay, and one of, if not the deepest story in the franchise, the gameplay overall was fine tuned, allowing Dante all his old moves plus the ability to switch on the fly. The only downside that I can see is the backtracking, but even then, the series is know for backtracking as is it's predesscor, Resident Evil. You can not simply push aside the tower of backtrac...i mean Temin-ni-gru.

This is actually something I totally agree with, and I don't need to add anything to it.

/end venting and explanation

x-x

^^^ My points are in the quote.

 

[Durxom]

^^^ My points are in the quote.

Meh =/

It's pretty much Vergil in my mind and I'm sticking with it.The resemblance of the Vergil's DT and Nelo Angelo, and Nero's DT is too close, Yamato fusing back together when the arm reaches out/gets power etc., and Nero saying that as soon as he got the arm, it started saying "Power..need more power" which is a Vergil quote... just saying, huge hints towards what I'm saying

I forgot about that gore hell in DMC1 x-x oops

And I guess fanservice might be a better term than throwback I guess?? I'm still standing behind that point though =/

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Meh =/

It's pretty much Vergil in my mind and I'm sticking with it.The resemblance of the Vergil's DT and Nelo Angelo, and Nero's DT is too close, Yamato fusing back together when the arm reaches out/gets power etc., and Nero saying that as soon as he got the arm, it started saying "Power..need more power" which is a Vergil quote... just saying, huge hints towards what I'm saying

I forgot about that gore hell in DMC1 x-x oops

And I guess fanservice might be a better term than throwback I guess?? I'm still standing behind that point though =/

Fanservice is a better term for it, I think.

How could you forget the DMC1 hell? XD That's the most memorable part of the game for me. Especially the music.

It only resembles Vergil from the arm sheath, which is a Yamato trait, not Vergil specific. It doesn't resemble Nelo Angelo much at all, either. The armor is too angular and the horns are screwed up. It's just the fact that he wears armor that people seem to say "OMFG that's Nelo Angelo!!!1!111!!!"

 

[moseslmpg]

Umm...I don't know how you missed the huge obvious hints that Vergil was Nero's Devil Bringer/DT but ok...

It was obvious, but it was never actually confirmed, and Dante didn't even seem to recognize Vergil. The novel actually says that the ghost isn't Vergil, it is Nero's soul. Even if you do think the ghost is Vergil, he isn't an actual character, he is a gameplay device, a virtual cardboard cutout.

And no, the game had no FF influences at all....and there was never any gore in any of the other games besides making oozeing or that part about being inside of the Leviathan. It kept all of the gothic(ok maybe not gothic exactly), but medieval style architecture as all of the other titles.

Not influences, but it looks very FF-ish, especially the characters, and you could definitely imagine it as a single level in a JRPG. Nero was an effeminate pretty boy, as is often the case in FF games. There has always been gore in the DMC games, hence the warning screen at the beginning. They didn't keep the same architecture at all as DMC1 or DMC3, which was kind of the point of Fortuna. The only thing that was remotely DMC was the castle. If you can't see that, I don't know if anyone can help you.

And DMC4 was a huge throwback to DMC1, remixed songs, they brought back Frosts and Assaults from DMC1, as well the Scarecrows resembling/acting like the Marionettes, huge stone "final" boss, and many of the areas resembling parts from DMC1 as well. I don't know what else they could have done to make it even more of a throwback.

No, it wasn't. The remixed music was re-used, that is just fanservice really. Nothing has matched DMC1's atmospheric music yet. There were no Assaults in DMC1, there were Blades. The Scarecrows look and act nothing like the Marionettes except in that they are made of flammable material. I agree some things might be fanservice or homages, but DMC4 is nothing like DMC1 and to pretend that it is is ignorant.

And yes..most people are hating on it for no reason..or little reason at that. Nero, while some might not have liked him, added new gameplay, and one of, if not the deepest story in the franchise, the gameplay overall was fine tuned, allowing Dante all his old moves plus the ability to switch on the fly. The only downside that I can see is the backtracking, but even then, the series is know for backtracking as is it's predesscor, Resident Evil. You can not simply push aside the tower of backtrac...i mean Temin-ni-gru.

Nero didn't add new gameplay, a new gameplay device added Nero. He wasn't necessary in the least. The story, if you can even call it that, is not deep at all, nor is it coherent. DMC2's story was more coherent than DMC4. And don't even try to equate the Gru with the copy/paste job that is DMC4's backtracking. You're just losing credibility with each sentence.

If the only downside you can see is backtracking, then you should recuse yourself from further discussion because you are obviously a DMC4 fangirl, no better than people who blindly hate DMC4.

Yeah......

 

[Durxom]

Ok for one, I am a guy..

2) Ok, I guess I'll drop the Vergil thing, I haven't read said novel you are talking about, but gamewise, those were the hints I saw that lead to that conclusion

3)How can you say Nero is an effeminate pretty boy and a JRPG archetype, when Dante and Vergil follow the same style and look, only they gave Nero some actually emotion, instead of just the random grrs, and random crys that the other two had...ohh wait, they all have that

All the architecture looks pretty much the same to me, most of the backdrops/areas all look the exact same, only this time around they decided to not be in the same deep dark castle the whole time...variety is not a bad thing.

I can't judge on music because everyone will take it differently, but yes, the monsters are the exact same. Scarecrows act like Marionettes, Frosts act like Frosts, and the Blades and the Assualts are the exact same thing

Blade:

Assualt:

And you seem to be the ignorant one here =/

Nero may not have been needed exactly, but he is still a welcome addition. He has his new gameplay, he has a new personality, which is a mish-mash of Dante's playful arrogance and Vergil's seriousness and strong emotions.While the story wasn't as good as 3, but it was still on par with 1(which had little story in itself), and better than 2(which barely had any).

And yes, I am comparing the two's backtracking. 4 may have had backtracking, but they at least changed it up a bit by adding new routes and different aspects to Dante's go through. While Temin-ni-gru, all it was, was going up the tower, down the tower, then back up the tower again, causing you to go through the same parts at least 2-3 times before the entire game is over.

so in closing, DMC4 was a good fun DMC game, not as great as DMC3, but still pretty dang good.
Stop getting your panties all in a bunch just because a japanese game, is getting slightly more japanese.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

While Temin-ni-gru, all it was, was going up the tower, down the tower, then back up the tower again

D:
I'm gonna have to go back up the damn thing AGAIN?! Gah!!!!!!

Stop getting your panties all in a bunch just because a japanese game, is getting slightly more japanese.

It's not supposed to BE more Japanese! That's why they threw the brakes on it in the first place! So in that perspective - DMC4: FAIL! They want it to be more Westernized, and it was one of their conditions that had to be met IF another DMC game was to materialize eg. DMC5.

 

[moseslmpg]

Ok for one, I am a guy..

You type like a girl, forgive me. That is not meant to be insulting, just the vibe i got from your posts.

2) Ok, I guess I'll drop the Vergil thing, I haven't read said novel you are talking about, but gamewise, those were the hints I saw that lead to that conclusion

I think that is the conclusion they were leading to, but it is like they just forgot to add the last part. We have no idea who Nero is or what Vergil's state of being is.

3)How can you say Nero is an effeminate pretty boy and a JRPG archetype, when Dante and Vergil follow the same style and look, only they gave Nero some actually emotion, instead of just the random grrs, and random crys that the other two had...ohh wait, they all have that

Dante isn't effeminate nor is he a pretty boy in the strict sense of the word. He is cut, built, scruffy, etc. Vergil, we haven't seen since DMC3, so I don't know, but I assume he is in worse shape than Dante, given that he has been in Hell for 10+ years.

Don't try and equate Nero with the twins like that, it just makes you look like your argument has no weight. If you really can't tell the difference, then I guess you are Kobayashi's traget audience and he did reach you after all.

All the architecture looks pretty much the same to me, most of the backdrops/areas all look the exact same, only this time around they decided to not be in the same deep dark castle the whole time...variety is not a bad thing.

DMC1 wasn't in a castle the whole time either, but it wasn't happy sunshine land either. If the architecture does look the same to you, architecture is not a field you should go into then, because it isn't the same.

I can't judge on music because everyone will take it differently, but yes, the monsters are the exact same. Scarecrows act like Marionettes, Frosts act like Frosts, and the Blades and the Assualts are the exact same thing

Scarecrows are not like Marionettes at all. They don't walk the same or attack the same. The Frosts are of course the same, because they are the same enemy.

Blade:

Assualt:

And you seem to be the ignorant one here =/

Blade. Assault. You see the difference between those two words? A Blade is not an Assault, and Assault is a derived from that stems from the Blade, but it is not itself a Blade. DMC1 and DMC2 had Blades, DMC4 does not, it has some lookalike that they gave a different name. That does not count as a throwback, anymore than DMC2 counts as a throwback to DMC1. Fanservice, maybe, but that's as far as it goes, and it is only with 2 enemies.

Nero may not have been needed exactly, but he is still a welcome addition. He has his new gameplay, he has a new personality, which is a mish-mash of Dante's playful arrogance and Vergil's seriousness and strong emotions.While the story wasn't as good as 3, but it was still on par with 1(which had little story in itself), and better than 2(which barely had any).

His gameplay could have been added as a new weapon easily. His personality is DMC3 Dante with sad tears and crying and a fouler mouth. The story was incoherent and incomplete and brought up more questions than it answered.

And yes, I am comparing the two's backtracking. 4 may have had backtracking, but they at least changed it up a bit by adding new routes and different aspects to Dante's go through. While Temin-ni-gru, all it was, was going up the tower, down the tower, then back up the tower again, causing you to go through the same parts at least 2-3 times before the entire game is over.

Are you fricking serious? I don't know if you are joking or not here. The Gru never felt like backtracking, and it changed throughout the game. DMC4 literally had you go through the same missions backwards, rather than visit Hell. And mind you, this was after the fiasco that was DMC2 and this is on PS3. I think you must just be Kobayashi's alt or something.

so in closing, DMC4 was a good fun DMC game, not as great as DMC3, but still pretty dang good.
Stop getting your panties all in a bunch just because a japanese game, is getting slightly more japanese.

Oh ok, I guess I won't complain when my favorite series is raped and corrupted by an ignorant buffoon of a producer. I mean, it isn't like I've been playing it from the beginning and actually care about what happens to it. I'll just do what you do and lay down and take it. Thanks for the advice there. [/sarcasm]

 

[Vampi]

I didn't like any of the females in DMC4, save for Kyrie, and that's only because it would have driven me insane if she had to respond to Nero every time. The whole game would have consisted of 'KYRIEEEEE! 'NEROOOOO!' 'KYRIEEEEEEEE!' 'NEEEERRROOOOOOOOO!'
I mean gah damn it, he really screwed it up!

If he wanted to appeal to girl gamers, then Hideki sure did one hell of a job with Bayonetta to show Koba HOW IT'S DONE!

Kyrie isn't really any better then Gloria. She makes woman seem weak and always pure (i'm not saying she should be a whore. But it seems girls who aren't virgins aren't worthy of love or sumthing. Which is wrong). Besides, i hated her. I hate those type of female characters. She's what i call "Useless Fluff".

How is Bayonetta more suited for Female Gamers? The fanservice for guys is through the roof. That's why i loathe Bayonetta. She just brings the bad about female video game characters to the higher degree of sluttiness. I much prefer the headstrong Jeanne. Now there's a strong willed woman who doesn't have to use her assets to get attention. Her actions speak louder then words. Her actions being super freaking cool at kicking ass.

And yes i hate Yaoi fangirls. I have no idea what's the appeal to that. How can you like a guy whose gay? He'll never give you the time of day. Crazy i'm telling ya.

And yes Dante should've been shirtless in all his next-gen glory

 

[Kittn]

It's no secret to most that I sodding love DMC 4 - well, ok, I sodding love the Dante pieces of it. Hah. But it was enough to definitely make me love the game more than I hate it.

That being said... gonna argue a bit here.

If you think the AI enemies in this game acted the same as the ones in DMC 1 then you really need to revisit the original. I've played through Mission 17 a hundred times while modding it feels like, and the stretch of street you run through as Dante has a nice sampling of uglies for you to play with.

Most noticibly different are the scarecrows/marionettes. Heck you could stand there for DAYS I bet and they wouldn't notice you - they'd just sit there dancing around and making weird noises.

In DMC 1, they came after you. In DMC 3, they came after you. This is the first time they've been all ho-hum, It's just Dante, let's just Jitterbug instead of trying to kill him. There is a distinct lack of hostility in the critters. So they might look similar but they sure don't act it.

Stop getting your panties all in a bunch just because a japanese game, is getting slightly more japanese.

And that's just silly, right there.

You really think that because it has a "Made in Japan" sticker someplace, its okay for it to deviate away from it's original plot and design elements to something more jrpg?

That's a good way to lose core fans. So no, its not okay, and I don't see any reason to defend the clearly jrpg'd up plot in DMC 4. They could have delivered the same story elements in a way that wouldn't have made fans of the earlier games roll their eyes. :/

ETA:

And yes Dante should've been shirtless in all his next-gen glory

QFT.

 

[Durxom]

Ok, this is going to be the last thing I'm going to say on this topic, because I'm tired, and tired of arguing as well x-x

Fine, I haven't played the first one in a while, but from what I do remember from it, it and 4 felt alike to me.

I have been playing the series since day 1, and I really saw nothing wrong with this game except for maybe the lack of costumes, and more backtracking than the other ones.

I had fun playing as Dante, I had fun playing as Nero, I enjoyed the gameplay just like all the other ones, and I enjoyed the story just like all of the other ones.

You might not like this one, and I might not like one of the ones you like more, but from what have seen, the DMC series is kind of messed up with the general acceptance of them. Some people like DMC2 the best, while others like the original for Dante's personality, and some like this one more than 3 because of the changes.

I've been playing this one the most because it is one of the few games that works really well on my computer, and its fun as hell to boot up every once and a while, so that may be clouding my judgement.

So can we agree to disagree then, before my brain implodes on itself?

 

[Devil Bane]

HAhahahaha!....You guys...and girls...really are normal...that's why I love you...but seriously don't misunderstand...DMC4 was not FF-ised...nor without it's Yaoi food for fangirls.Oh and Netta?She appeals to fujoshi and fangirls allright,even if it was not in Kamiya's intentions at all...when they make futanari doujinshis>_< of her...instead of the Normal LukaXNetta ones...>_>

And as for food for the Fujoshi : it's not really that much that Nero is...like Raiden...slightly efeminate.Not at all.It's that he has a "pure girl type" for a romantic interest,she was raised by her and her brother[hence one of the Yaoi pairings] and the cutscenes with Dante.Yeah,I know : "what's suggestive about that?" you may ask,but think carefully.Didn't Nero lay down Dante and started punching him.That's enough to get the fujoshi engine running,use that scene and then make thousands of Nero X Dante Doujins.

Also tip : fujoshi don't like men that don't seem like boys...like Dante in DMC1,2 and now[but now he was saved by the beard trace],but if it's a pairing with their "favoulite chalacta" they will let it slide...unfortunately for us.>_>And this story...certainly fujoshi food.100%The less Dante,the better for them.

And as for Gloria...she is Trish,'nuff said.And she had to act so that nobody knew her identity.

 

[Kittn]

The post above horrified me beyond reason. D8

@Durxom, Oh I agree ~ I loved DMC4 and still have lots of fun with it. I do wish the story would have focused or revealed more of Dante's side though. But I do see the rpg elements in Nero's tale, and the easier part of the gameplay especially when controlling him. I guess its why I don't care too much for those parts. But I still liked the game very much.

I don't see how they thought it would appeal to the ladies though. Especially any of the ladies who were already fans of the series.

 

[Devil Bane]

^You have yet to see...the true fujoshis!*insert scarry face*

Also...RPG elements?Where?

 

[moseslmpg]

Fine, I haven't played the first one in a while, but from what I do remember from it, it and 4 felt alike to me.

Play it again. Pay close attention to everything about it. Nothing in the series has reached DMC1 level yet, though DMC3 was a close second.

I have been playing the series since day 1, and I really saw nothing wrong with this game except for maybe the lack of costumes, and more backtracking than the other ones.

Then maybe you are just a casual fan, no offense. If you just play it for fun but aren't interested in where the atual story is going, you wouldn't have a problem. most gameplay people like it fine.

You might not like this one, and I might not like one of the ones you like more, but from what have seen, the DMC series is kind of messed up with the general acceptance of them. Some people like DMC2 the best, while others like the original for Dante's personality, and some like this one more than 3 because of the changes.

But it isn't all relative. This is no reason for us to simply accept what we have, good or bad.

I've been playing this one the most because it is one of the few games that works really well on my computer, and its fun as hell to boot up every once and a while, so that may be clouding my judgement.

Well then, that's fine. I'm all for anyone who wants to enjoy it. But when someone tells me it is good and we shouldn't complain, that is where they move from personal enjoyment to public judgment, and I'm not going to just sit down and take that.

So can we agree to disagree then, before my brain implodes on itself?

We don't even have to disagree, because what I am talking about here isn't even your concern. It is the same way with the gameplay guys. I don't argue with them about gameplay, and I don't take crap from them about the story, because they are two different things.

So yes, our disagreement is over as long as things stay in the realm of subjective enjoyment. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way; this is a topic that gets me up in arms.

DB: I don't understand anything you just typed.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Y'know, Bayonetta actually has a surprisingly large female fanbase, you guys... Check the GameFAQs Netta forums, if you don't believe me. Almost half or more of the people on that board are girls.

 

[moseslmpg]

That's because Bayonetta is a labor of love and an actually good game.

Bayonetta is pretty slutty, but the difference is that she is the total dominant force in that game universe. So it isn't really demeaning to women, not as much. If they had played it more subtly, it could have been better, and if Bayo wasn't a crossbreed between a giraffe and a human, it might have been less freaky.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Am I the only one who honestly thought Bayonetta's anatomy was fine?

And she isn't demeaning to women... In fact, I find that she actually promotes female baddassery, so that's something to be proud of on her part.

And I don't find her THAT slutty, to be totally honest. There are worse women out there.