Final boss fight is confusing.

[Macabre]

Vergil was not concerned with talking. he was the person who first initiated the fight and made the first stance (ie reached for his sword) further more. during the fight Dante is constantly telling Vergil to stop. listen.think. please. but Vergil is having none of it. he just becomes more aggressive and ruthless. if you look at his face when they fight (more obvious in cutscenes during fight) he has this demented, cruel smile. like he takes a dark pleasure from this. so you can see the evil has already taken root inside him.
he loves being in control. he said he learned to hack because it gives him that sense of controlling things. as such he wouldnt have backed down no matter what. its just his nature. like an OCD, you cant talk those things out.

That's another part of the problem though, and it makes NT's Vergil even more incompetent.

This is a man who has founded, maintained and lead an ultra-secretive terrorist network which evaded detection by a GOD and his neigh-omniscient magical army. He has convinced and manipulated countless highly intelligent individuals to act as part of his organisation, when doing so means he has convinced them to risk being horribly killed by reality-warping monsters at the very least. He is self-taught in the means to manipulate Limbo and combat these creatures. This all implies that Vergil is a genius manipulator who makes Arkham look like a burbling invalid.

However, Vergil continously lets on that he is an apathetic sociopath to the two most important people in his organisation, never justifies his actions with anything more than a pithy singular sentance, and ultimately decides to confess his tyrannical motives rather than move towards them subtly.

Hell, he could even have confessed them to Dante while they were alone together rather than with Kat, where she is bound to blind Dante to how sensible Vergil's plan is.

Seriously everyone, Vergil is completely correct. As they are speaking in the final confrontation, millions of people are being eaten alive by demons, mass panicking and rioting are rampant, the entire global economy has been crippled by the world's most powerful bank folding, and every human being is gripped by fear. The world needs a dictator to lead them, and Vergil is the only living being even remotely qualified. It doesn't matter why he's doing it or if Dante suspects he might ultimately turn evil: Humanity needs leadership right goddamned now because, unless you haven't noticed, the heroes just put mankind on the fast route to extinction.

Unless Tameem was trying to make some kind of Spec Ops: The Line style message about turning the game off if you disapprove of your characters actions, because in which case: BRAVO!

 

[Dante Redgrave]

It wasn't so much needing to guide and further protect mankind, it was the way Vergil stated it; "We will RULE our SUBJECTS". He was taking about again putting mankind into servitude, and Dante knew exactly where it was going to go; that kind of power would eventually corrupt Vergil. He already got hints of it in how Vergil was willing to abandon his most LOYAL MEMBER OF THE ORDER despite what she did for him and continued to do for him. Dante say the makings of another Mundus in Vergil's words, and potentially something worse since as Nephilim, they had access to abilities demons and angels possibly did not.

 

[788Masri]

That's another part of the problem though, and it makes NT's Vergil even more incompetent.

This is a man who has founded, maintained and lead an ultra-secretive terrorist network which evaded detection by a GOD and his neigh-omniscient magical army. He has convinced and manipulated countless highly intelligent individuals to act as part of his organisation, when doing so means he has convinced them to risk being horribly killed by reality-warping monsters at the very least. He is self-taught in the means to manipulate Limbo and combat these creatures. This all implies that Vergil is a genius manipulator who makes Arkham look like a burbling invalid.

However, Vergil continously lets on that he is an apathetic sociopath to the two most important people in his organisation, never justifies his actions with anything more than a pithy singular sentance, and ultimately decides to confess his tyrannical motives rather than move towards them subtly.

Hell, he could even have confessed them to Dante while they were alone together rather than with Kat, where she is bound to blind Dante to how sensible Vergil's plan is.

Seriously everyone, Vergil is completely correct. As they are speaking in the final confrontation, millions of people are being eaten alive by demons, mass panicking and rioting are rampant, the entire global economy has been crippled by the world's most powerful bank folding, and every human being is gripped by fear. The world needs a dictator to lead them, and Vergil is the only living being even remotely qualified. It doesn't matter why he's doing it or if Dante suspects he might ultimately turn evil: Humanity needs leadership right goddamned now because, unless you haven't noticed, the heroes just put mankind on the fast route to extinction.

Unless Tameem was trying to make some kind of Spec Ops: The Line style message about turning the game off if you disapprove of your characters actions, because in which case: BRAVO!

Aah you see heres your problem. From what we can tell, Vergil ony ever acts all self preservatory when he's in a corner. and like you said, Mundus hasnt been able to do anything about him so Vergil has never been observed in said situation. so Kat has no idea about his mindset. even when he DOES act like a complete proto villain, its all justifiable. he abandons Kat because the data would lead Mundus to victory. he shoots lilith and risks Kat to make Mundus angry. he doesnt NEED to sit everyone down and explain it because he makes his veiw obvious from the very start. Mundus needs to be defeated regardless of the costs. the typical veiw of any soldier in a war.

now Vergil and Dante love each other. theyre brothers, whats more twins. the only family they have and the only other person who understands what theyve been through. hell, it seems theyre the only members of their race. the two of them are constantly in sync in the game. exchanging banter, thoughts, secrets, ideas. they trust eachother 100%. Vergil has no reason to think Dante intended anything BUT to rule with him. he doesnt see it as a bad thing.

and Vergil is not correct. there is a difference between a leader and a ruler. a leader is a hero, someone who takes the burdens of the many to garuantee their safety and future their purpose is to SERVE. a ruler is someone who OWNS their subjects. they are more valuable than them and the masses are only there to aid him. Dante knows that exchanging one dictator for another isnt an improvement. even if Vergil miraculously remains as pure as he was now, how would he exact dominance? hes not immortal, demons will try to take Munduss place, humans wont just kneel in unison. people will want their freedon ESPECIALLY if the world is now a much much more violent place. Not to mention what Vergil said was almost WORD FOR WORD what Mundus used to justify his actions. Mundus didnt talk about how worthless mankind was, just that they couldnt manage themselves like childeren.

the idea here is unity in the masses. people need to want whats bet for them. not just blindly follow whoever is the biggest guy with a weapon. freedom is a gift, if you abuse it, you'll loose it. simple as that. and just to point out, Vergil didnt tell Kat nor Dante that closing the hell gate would make limbo and earth to collide. he planned millions to die because of it so people would accept his rule out of fear.

 

[Macabre]

It wasn't so much needing to guide and further protect mankind, it was the way Vergil stated it; "We will RULE our SUBJECTS". He was taking about again putting mankind into servitude, and Dante knew exactly where it was going to go; that kind of power would eventually corrupt Vergil. He already got hints of it in how Vergil was willing to abandon his most LOYAL MEMBER OF THE ORDER despite what she did for him and continued to do for him. Dante say the makings of another Mundus in Vergil's words, and potentially something worse since as Nephilim, they had access to abilities demons and angels possibly did not.

Consider that a President RULES his SUBJECTS. Dante and Kat completely jump off the deep end when Vergil makes a poor choice of semantics. Remember that Kat is merely another fighter in a world wide terrorist organisation, and that in any war understanding you have to sacrifice people is the heavy burden of anybody in control.

Of course Vergil was being amazing stupid by neglecting Kat, when she does represent a unique talent which Vergil had no way of replacing without her, which just makes him seem even more incompetent.

The main reason Kat was kidnapped from a plot standpoint was to give Tameem a way to try and morally wrangle baby-murder into his story without making the heroes all seem reprehensible. Imagine if it hadn't happened, and instead you had to kick in the door to Lillith's club and then throw her down some stairs without provocation. Even if the villians are demons that would seem a bit much, so the Mundas had to throw the first stone just to make sure the plot wasn't too edgy or morally ambiguous. God knows that might have actually been interesting.

The fact of the matter is that simply having your character spontaneously turn into a manically grinning fratricidal monster when he had just seemed to be a incompetent pretentious berk is lazy story writing.

Personally I was hoping the double-cross would come when Vergil interacted with the portal and absorbed Mundas's immortality and imposed his rule on the Earth right then and there, leaving Dante to finish the battle alone. That would have set up the sequel and have made the fans look forward to their ultimate showdown even more.

 

[Lunar Legend]

Im just of the opinion the entirety of mission 21 was forced.
also i agree vergil would have been perfect for the job. heck even if vergil where to become another mundus he would have at least saved humanity from extinction then dante could of done something about it.
in short: vergil had a perfectly valid opinion that hid behind some pretty ill chosen words

 

[788Masri]

Vergil wasnt going for a President, nor a leader. he was going for a ruler. he was going to become the next God-King of limbo/Earth. just like Mundus was. that was his goal. FROM THE BEGINING! he knew closing the hell gate would cause the worlds to collide. by poor choice of words you mean, he didnt sugar coat it. he wanted to exterminate every last demon and then have humanity kneel before him as he ordered them to do as he pleased. sure it may be benificial in the short term. but in the long term, were just giving up one tyrant for another. his intentions may have been pure but an act of evil for good is still an act of evil.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Consider that a President RULES his SUBJECTS.

Properly, a President isn't a ruler, but a elected leader. El Presidente like Fidel Castro examples not withstanding, that is what a president is SUPPOSED to be; chosen by the people, not taking command over subjects. Vergil talked of just taking over and RULING, not presenting themselves to the humans as viable options to help LEAD. Yes, it was ill worded, but it also revealed Vergil let his heratige cause this belief that it's his and Dante's birthright to take command of the human world, to reign as Kings instead of guiding as leaders.

 

[Macabre]

Aah you see heres your problem.

I'll thank you not to take that tone with me. You are not a plumber and my opinions are not a drainpipe.

From what we can tell, Vergil ony ever acts all self preservatory when he's in a corner. and like you said, Mundus hasnt been able to do anything about him so Vergil has never been observed in said situation. so Kat has no idea about his mindset. even when he DOES act like a complete proto villain, its all justifiable. he abandons Kat because the data would lead Mundus to victory. he shoots lilith and risks Kat to make Mundus angry. he doesnt NEED to sit everyone down and explain it because he makes his veiw obvious from the very start. Mundus needs to be defeated regardless of the costs. the typical veiw of any soldier in a war.

It would still raise alarm bells with any intelligent human being. But it fits well with the characters we have.

now Vergil and Dante love each other. theyre brothers, whats more twins. the only family they have and the only other person who understands what theyve been through. hell, it seems theyre the only members of their race. the two of them are constantly in sync in the game. exchanging banter, thoughts, secrets, ideas. they trust eachother 100%. Vergil has no reason to think Dante intended anything BUT to rule with him. he doesnt see it as a bad thing.

Except for the fact that they have completely different philosophies, motives and methods, and Vergil knows this. Dante is the cliche' too-cool-4-skool anarchist, and yet Vergil thinks he's going to stand alongside him as he become Not-Nephilim Super HItler? Completely out of character.

and Vergil is not correct. there is a difference between a leader and a ruler. a leader is a hero, someone who takes the burdens of the many to garuantee their safety and future their purpose is to SERVE. a ruler is someone who OWNS their subjects. they are more valuable than them and the masses are only there to aid him. Dante knows that exchanging one dictator for another isnt an improvement. even if Vergil miraculously remains as pure as he was now, how would he exact dominance? hes not immortal, demons will try to take Munduss place, humans wont just kneel in unison. people will want their freedon ESPECIALLY if the world is now a much much more violent place. Not to mention what Vergil said was almost WORD FOR WORD what Mundus used to justify his actions. Mundus didnt talk about how worthless mankind was, just that they couldnt manage themselves like childeren.

The world needs leadership at this critical juncture, or it will burn. Without a leader who can bring mankind together, educate them on how to combat demons and enforce an iron will to stop them from killing eachother, they will be dead within a month. That's the nature of this setting as it has been portrayed. Once a stable environment has been made, then a more open government will be possible, but until then the world needs a tyrant. Dante buggered that up, so now the world is doomed.

and just to point out, Vergil didnt tell Kat nor Dante that closing the hell gate would make limbo and earth to collide. he planned millions to die because of it so people would accept his rule out of fear.

That's complete fan conjecture with no basis in the story. There's no way Vergil would know that...Hell, there's no way he'd know how Mundas's immortality would work either, or if Yamato could stop it.

 

[788Masri]

I'll thank you not to take that tone with me. You are not a plumber and my opinions are not a drainpipe.

wasnt taking a tone but now ive decided to be mario YAHOO

It would still raise alarm bells with any intelligent human being. But it fits well with the characters we have.

not really, Dante gives Vergil the odd look and calls him out when he shot lilith. but it wasnt anything too bad as to arouse suspiscion. Vergil was just getting the job done, thinking of the goal the entire time. so to not be distracted by avoidable problems.

Except for the fact that they have completely different philosophies, motives and methods, and Vergil knows this. Dante is the cliche' too-cool-4-skool anarchist, and yet Vergil thinks he's going to stand alongside him as he become Not-Nephilim Super HItler? Completely out of character.

they never really sat down and discussed dreams, plans etc. they just worked together. that forged a mutual trust. add that with whative just said and you can see why they thought they shared eachothers goals.

The world needs leadership at this critical juncture, or it will burn. Without a leader who can bring mankind together, educate them on how to combat demons and enforce an iron will to stop them from killing eachother, they will be dead within a month. That's the nature of this setting as it has been portrayed. Once a stable environment has been made, then a more open government will be possible, but until then the world needs a tyrant. Dante buggered that up, so now the world is doomed.

no, weapons work on demons as Kat demonstrated. Dante can easily draw fire and defend humanity. not to mention i imagine there are demon hunters out there other than in the order. Kat cannot possibly be the only psychic as her spells are based on wican/pagan stuff etc. humanity is in for a fight but not a masacare

That's complete fan conjecture with no basis in the story. There's no way Vergil would know that...Hell, there's no way he'd know how Mundas's immortality would work either, or if Yamato could stop it.

Vergil was not the leadt bit surprised by the fact limbo collided with eart. infact he acted like it was expected

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Vergil expected? Hell, I'd say he practically PLANNED it. He knew a lot more than you'd think he should, expecially on how to shut off Mundus' invicibility.

 

[Macabre]

not really, Dante gives Vergil the odd look and calls him out when he shot lilith. but it wasnt anything too bad as to arouse suspiscion. Vergil was just getting the job done, thinking of the goal the entire time. so to not be distracted by avoidable problems.

Fine, fine. Vergil being a shallow villain who is transparently evil that nobody notices is perfectly acceptable. Hell, it worked for Arkham.

they never really sat down and discussed dreams, plans etc. they just worked together. that forged a mutual trust. add that with whative just said and you can see why they thought they shared eachothers goals.

You cannot seriously think that anyone would think that Dante is only concerned with killing Mundas and has nothing but contempt for any authority figure. Anyone can see that. A cat can see that. Vergil didn't. Vergil, the master manipulator. Ergo: Vergil is an idiot or Vergil is badly written.

no, weapons work on demons as Kat demonstrated. Dante can easily draw fire and defend humanity. not to mention i imagine there are demon hunters out there other than in the order. Kat cannot possibly be the only psychic as her spells are based on wican/pagan stuff etc. humanity is in for a fight but not a masacare

You can "imagine" but you can't know, because the setting is so incredibly shallow on detail. From what's presented in the game alone, we can infer that no human being has successfully fought and killed a demon. What's more, a single man, no matter how able, cannot possibly contend with an entire world that's suddenly become a human abbatoir, with defenceless humans being eaten alive in the streets by rampaging monsters.

We only see Kat throw a molotov at a demon's face, and that only made him vulnerable to bullets (Barely, and we have to presume it was magical seeing as it was used in Reality and hit a target in Limbo). Obviously if ALL human weapons work on demons and presuming demons don't have infinite numbers, it's almost conceivable that mankind won't be dead in a month.

Although with how demonic attacks will cripple logistical infrastructure I'd have to wonder how anyone will eat now...

was not the leadt bit surprised by the fact limbo collided with eart. infact he acted like it was expected

Hell, none of the characters really reacted to it particularly. You'd think at least Kat would be shocked and disturbed by it seeing as she's meant to be so spiritually aware. Nobody seemed to care at all. They just looked smug.

 

[chocolateghost79]

I know alot of people say that the fight could've been prevented, but if you go back and watch the fight unfold. Dante isn't the one that started the fight, yes he got upset at what Vergil said but he just told Vergil he can't allow him to follow through with his plan. It was Vergil who started the fight because he gave Dante no choice but to either follow him or perish.

 

[Macabre]

And that's the problem most people have: Vergil is ostenstiably a highly intelligent man, and yet he acts like a moron. Oh, I'm sorry, goes "Mad With Power ! SHAKESPEAREAN!" when he doesn't actually have any power yet.

 

[Devil Player]

Talking about last boss, how does the battle work on Heaven or Hell mode?

You just shoot and it's over? What about all the scripted scenes showing Vergil changing his pattern during the fight? Do they disappear or what?

 

[Sawyer1331]

I know alot of people say that the fight could've been prevented, but if you go back and watch the fight unfold. Dante isn't the one that started the fight, yes he got upset at what Vergil said but he just told Vergil he can't allow him to follow through with his plan. It was Vergil who started the fight because he gave Dante no choice but to either follow him or perish.

I don't know, to me it just seemed to be Dante's fault.

I mean, yes Vergil said that they should rule humans and that humans are their subjects but for god's sakes Dante, there is no need to fight him right then and there ! He hasn't done anything wrong yet ! You could at least give him the chance to explain himself before jumping to conclusions !

I would like it more if Dante's last dialogue would have been " Did i just try to kill my only family? " or "Did i do the right thing? " or something along those lines.

 

[chocolateghost79]

I don't know, to me it just seemed to be Dante's fault.

I mean, yes Vergil said that they should rule humans and that humans are their subjects but for god's sakes Dante, there is no need to fight him right then and there ! He hasn't done anything wrong yet ! You could at least give him the chance to explain himself before jumping to conclusions !

I would like it more if Dante's last dialogue would have been " Did i just try to kill my only family? " or "Did i do the right thing? " or something along those lines.

But it was Vergil that started the fight if Dante didn't fight I'm pretty sure Vergil would have killed him right then and there. I mean Vergil told Dante to stand aside and that he could not let Dante stop him in other words he would kill him if he did something to prevent Vergil from becoming the new ruler.

 

[btmudd28]

But it was Vergil that started the fight if Dante didn't fight I'm pretty sure Vergil would have killed him right then and there. I mean Vergil told Dante to stand aside and that he could not let Dante stop him in other words he would kill him if he did something to prevent Vergil from becoming the new ruler.

Yeah, Vergil grabbed his weapon first.

 

[chocolateghost79]

Yeah, Vergil grabbed his weapon first.

This is also true. Vergil was ready to kill Dante right when he disagreed with his plan.

 

[TheNoHeartedBeing]

I don't know, to me it just seemed to be Dante's fault.

I mean, yes Vergil said that they should rule humans and that humans are their subjects but for god's sakes Dante, there is no need to fight him right then and there ! He hasn't done anything wrong yet ! You could at least give him the chance to explain himself before jumping to conclusions !

I would like it more if Dante's last dialogue would have been " Did i just try to kill my only family? " or "Did i do the right thing? " or something along those lines.

I agree with you completely. I think Dante was only mad because Vergil didnt think much of Kat.

 

[TheNoHeartedBeing]

I know alot of people say that the fight could've been prevented, but if you go back and watch the fight unfold. Dante isn't the one that started the fight, yes he got upset at what Vergil said but he just told Vergil he can't allow him to follow through with his plan. It was Vergil who started the fight because he gave Dante no choice but to either follow him or perish.

He did give him choice. Vergil said hey man if you dont want to rule just step down. (he didnt say those exact words lol) Those were not fighting words though.