DMC5 Vid Says CAPCOM is Getting It Wrong

[berto]

While I argued that I don't think Itsuno-san is disinterested I will have to agree with the point that Itsuno doesn't have as much interest in continuing with Dante and would rather focus on Nero or someone new. I've said this myself over the years, that the last 3 DMC games (DmC included) have made their protagonists younger so they can have a clear platform to stand on, that Capcom doesn't know what to do with Dante. They can't get rid of him, he's too iconic. DMC1 and 3 are complete stories and very significant for Dante on a personal level but if you keep making those it's easier to do it with another character than doing it again with the same one so I get it, but the last 3 games have been a string of start overs with a younger protagonist, even if two of those are Dante.

You ever seen Michael Bay trying to do public speaking? He can't, he panics easily. Not everyone is comfortable in crowds or in front of the camera. Itsuno has never struck me as the kind of guy that is. That's how he's always looked in front of the camera, whenever the rare occasion of him pooping in front of it may occur, even non-DMC stuff... as far as I can remember. Itsuno just hasn't been as eager to get center stage so he doesn't have as much practice as Kamiya or Kojima do in front of audiences and cameras. As for mr Walker, I think he is playing more the role of the hype man than that of a politician trying to get our votes. He just seems like a guy who's willing to be be energetic and maybe even silly to get people excited and it really doesn't feel forced to me. I just think they're reading these two people wrong. Just because others act differently in similar situations doesn't mean that they aren't being genuine.

The whole point #2. that 'Itsuno is Trying to make DmC2' is not right. Yes, the game is taking significant cues from DmC, yes, I thought it was DmC2 when I first saw the trailer, and, yes, Itsuno has mentioned repeatedly that these are no accidents and he'd marry DmC if it were possible, I'll track down that quote for you later, but we all know that reason the game looks the way it does is because they didn't want to exclude DmC fans. They are tasked with making a game that will appeal to all DMC fans, even reboot ones, and so they are making the effort to somehow merge them all or, at least, not exclude anyone, which is not possible but they were still willing to try. Everything else he said is true, to an extent, DMC5 has a lot of DmC and there is an odd parallel to that, considering DmC was made specifically to not be like a DMC game and some of the design choices for the enemies are odd. So, I don't agree with this pont, not because their supporting evidence is wrong, it's kinda not, but because I think the reasoning behind the decisions isn't 'to make DmC2' but rather to try to make a game that will appeal to all fans.

(To be continued...)

 

[Innsmouth]

OK, my two cents on the matter.
As somebody who really, REALLY didn'T liked anything about DmC, I think this guy comes off as, and I do apologise for my wording, like somebody whining for the sake of whining.
Now to his points:

a) Itsuno looks disentersted, so what? I mean not everyone is Steve Jobs and not everyone can make a show. VAs from game coming off as really exited about it and they already said they made if for the fans. They even had interview where they said, how they listened to feedback and tried to make what fans wanted this time, which this video ignores.

b)Bayonetta is indie game? Lol sure. Especially when it puts nitnendo costumes into game and sells game over and over for 60€ tag price, because nitnendo want their cash back. Sure sounds indie to me.

c)capcom tries to do it right by their audience, which is seen much more recently, which is this guy simply ignores

d)Game doesn't have a message. Well, do tell me where you got this crystal ball from. Game isn't out yet and we only seen pieces of story, but hey this guy knows already EVERYTHING.

E) oh all those marketing ploys make it look like corporate product. In the time where without marketing you pretty much dead on arrival, does it so wrong trying to hype game for new audience?

F) I'm simply not interested anymore. Than why bother? don't like it? don't play it. Dante was over the top cool since DMC3, so if you don't like it since than, it's probably not franchise for you.

 

[berto]

The other thing I've been saying for years is that after DMC3 the games just don't look like they're from the same series. 4's palette is so bright if you put it in a wall with backgrounds from DMC, let's say the cathedral in 1, then one from 4 like its church and a few other games you wouldn't be able to tell which are from the same series. Chaos Legion would look more similar just on the color palette. DmC is the same. It's not that they aren't similar it's that they aren't fitting. DMC 1-3's backgrounds are different enough to not be confused for one another, but they are also close enough that you could see how they'd be in the same game series or even the same game. In a similar fashion I say the same about the characters so in that whole 'doesn't look like they belong in DMC's world' ring a bit true with me, specially with Nero and Dante looking like hobos with worned out clothes and one looking really dirty and the 3rd looking and talking like he lives on the back room of a Hot Topic. In this point I have to agree but with a disclaimer which is that we won't know the full look of the game till we see more, but from what they've shown...

The cursing isn't as big a deal as all that to me. I found it extra juvenile in DmC but I haven't heard anything particularly forceful or cringy in 5 as of yet so I'm not as opposed to it as others are. I know that Dante isn't known for not swearing but rather because we've not actually heard him do it in game, which I think it's more about who is making the game, people who don't put much swearing in their games, not like Mikami or Kamiya used to, rather than a character trait so, whatever.

I really don't think that the reason DmC did as poorly as it did was because of how much it emphasized how bad ass it thought it was. I think it's because of how the fans and the developers were constantly giving each other the middle finger. Nowadays everyone tells the fans to go f* themselves, Star Wars producers, Star Trek staff, Dr. Who showrunners and actors, Ghostbusters owners, but that never goes well and the earliest example of that attitude I can think of is DmC. The constant name calling of the fans from the developer and the press very much created a rift that might've not been there had these insults not gotten out of hand. Had someone, at the start, anyone, said something to the effect of 'we hear you, it's not what you wanted but give it a chance. We are working hard at this and we hope to be making something special so don't brush it off' and stuck with that things might have played out differently, or, at least that's what I think.

Ok, I have to admit, that's a rather interesting theory, that DMC5's plot is a revised version of a DmC2 one. Not sure if I buy it but it sounds... interesting.

to be continued...

 

[BrawlMan]

The other thing I've been saying for years is that after DMC3 the games just don't look like they're from the same series. 4's palette is so bright if you put it in a wall with backgrounds from DMC, let's say the cathedral in 1, then one from 4 like its church and a few other games you wouldn't be able to tell which are from the same series. Chaos Legion would look more similar just on the color palette. DmC is the same. It's not that they aren't similar it's that they aren't fitting. DMC 1-3's backgrounds are different enough to not be confused for one another, but they are also close enough that you could see how they'd be in the same game series or even the same game. In a similar fashion I say the same about the characters so in that whole 'doesn't look like they belong in DMC's world' ring a bit true with me, specially with Nero and Dante looking like hobos with worned out clothes and one looking really dirty and the 3rd looking and talking like he lives on the back room of a Hot Topic. In this point I have to agree but with a disclaimer which is that we won't know the full look of the game till we see more, but from what they've shown...

The cursing isn't as big a deal as all that to me. I found it extra juvenile in DmC but I haven't heard anything particularly forceful or cringy in 5 as of yet so I'm not as opposed to it as others are. I know that Dante isn't known for not swearing but rather because we've not actually heard him do it in game, which I think it's more about who is making the game, people who don't put much swearing in their games, not like Mikami or Kamiya used to, rather than a character trait so, whatever.

I really don't think that the reason DmC did as poorly as it did was because of how much it emphasized so much on how bad ass it thought it was. I think it's because of how the fans and the developers were constantly giving each other the middle finger. Nowadays everyone tells the fans to go f* themselves, Star Wars producers, Star Trek staff, Dr. Who showrunners and actors, Ghostbusters owners, but that never goes well and the earliest example of that attitude I can think of is DmC. The constant name calling of the fans from the developer and the press very much created a rift that might've not been there had these insults not gotten out of hand. Had someone, at the start, anyone, said something to the effect of 'we hear you, it's not what you wanted but give it a chance. We are working hard at this and we hope to be making something special so don't brush it off' and stuck with that things might have played out differently, or, at least that's what I think.

Ok, I have to admit, that's a rather interesting theory, that DMC5's plot is a revised version of a DmC2 one. Not sure if I buy it but it sounds... interesting.

to be continued...

I liked the color palette in 4, and I noticed the Chaos Legion feeling; espeically in missions 7-10. In a sea of grey or dog poop brown (before it got even worse), I would gladly take it. I think the color change was because some complaints about DMC3 having too much brown and grey, but there plenty of bright colors. Either the people playing have a very loose memory, stupid, or did not get that far in to the game.

While there is a major truth to DmC's failure, I still say the game was doomed from the start by going for an audience that didn't care for actions games nor existed. NT & Capcom were aiming for the COD/casual audience, and most would continue to play COD or something else after playing DmC or not playing it all. And then you have the core fanbase who voted for their wallet or not buy it out of principle alone. Me being one of them. I did not get DmC until the DE version came out, and even then I got it used and a year (plus I got my PS4 in July 2015) after release. We're talking sales so bad that the HD collection sold better than the vanilla game, and the DE version sold even less, despite fixing most of its issues (there are still some game crashing bugs that have yet to be fixed).

 

[Jack500]

We're talking sales so bad that the HD collection sold better than the vanilla game

BULLSH**T http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Devil_May_Cry#cite_note-4

 

[BrawlMan]

@Jack500 You are partially correct, but only after a sale reduction. Capcom expected to sell over 2.2 million, but they didn't hit that target until a year after the game came out. Still couldn't beat DMC4 and many people traded (the ones that played it once or twice) in DmC afterward. The DE version still sold less.

 

[Jack500]

You are partially correct, but only after a sale reduction

Really ? Do you have an actually source for this, or are you just parroting what you read on some game forum

Capcom expected to sell over 2.2 million, but they didn't hit that target until a year after the game came out

And your point is ?

many people traded (the ones that played it once or twice) in DmC afterward

Who exactly are these many people. Do you know them? Or is this another thing you read on some forum

The DE version still sold less

The official sales numbers for the DE version hasn't been relased, so stop acting like you know how much it sold. All we know is that Capcom has stated they were "very happy with the sales of the Definitive Edition"

That's a lot of claims you're making, without anything to back them up

 

[DarkSlayer54]

And then you have the core fanbase who voted for their wallet or not buy it out of principle alone.

And yet I bought it, and it became my second favourite DMC game to date.

Each installment has it's fanbase, that's all there is to it.

 

[Innsmouth]

Ok, I have to admit, that's a rather interesting theory, that DMC5's plot is a revised version of a DmC2 one. Not sure if I buy it but it sounds... interesting..

I don't think it's the case. each and every DMC game deals with breach to the demon world. Except ironically DmC, which deals with complete absence of borders between two worlds. Demon Tree breaching into human world is very on the same foot as demon gates in DMC4, Temen-ni-gru in DMC3 or Arius' custom gate in DMC2

 

[BrawlMan]

And yet I bought it, and it became my second favourite DMC game to date.

Each installment has it's fanbase, that's all there is to it.

More power to you and nothing against you, but you're were the exception, not the rule. Most fans were thinking "if this guy is replacing Dante/Nero, then I don't want any of that" (I barely tolerate reboot Dante now). NJ attitude and Capcom enabling their arrogance wasn't helping either. The gaming press was even more guilty of this, all claiming none of the fans liked the game, because of Dante's hair color when there was more to it than that. Things like the asthetics, characters, story, and gameplay were either seen as mediocre at best or bad at worst. When you alienate the core fan base that make up the bulk of your sales, and going after people who had no interest in hack n slash games nor the DMC franchise to begin with, the outlook is not good.

@Jack500 When a publisher does not release sales numbers, that means a game sold horribly and the numbers are so bad, a company refuses to release a statement. Plus, I wouldn't trust Wikipedia alone.

As for the vanilla release of DmC:

https://www.shacknews.com/article/7...pectations-capcom-cites-excessive-outsourcing

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-01-24-dmc-sells-half-of-what-dmc4-did-in-japan

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-05-capcom-reduces-devil-may-cry-sales-target-by-800k

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/85081/dmc-devil-may-cry-definitive-edition/sales

Believe whatever you want, I am ending topic before it goes off rails and becomes a DMC vs. DmC arguement. I've said my piece. Good day sir or madam.

 

[V's patron]

@berto
To me, it's mostly the general aesthetic and a few plot points like demons running amok and them driving around. Grated those plot points DMC could have done already but those feel like how DmC2 would have started.

The other plot points like Urizem and V and the William Blake references could from a potential DmC plot but it also could be an invention of DMC5's team. Nico and her connection to Agnus, Nero losing his arm and the location of Redgrave feel more like DMC's invention but it could also be a potential DmC2.

Granted DmC Vergil feels more like a Willaim Blake fan than Classic Vergil and he'd probably rely on summoning demons more than classic Vergil would.

So who really knows until NT/Capcom says?

 

[Jack500]

More power to you and nothing against you, but you're were the exception, not the rule. Most fans were thinking "if this guy is replacing Dante/Nero, then I don't want any of that"

And when you say "most fans" you really mean "just myself". You don't speak for the entire fanbase buddy

When a publisher does not release sales numbers, that means a game sold horribly and the numbers are so bad, a company refuses to release a statement. Plus, I wouldn't trust Wikipedia alone.

I trust Wikipedia more than a deluded fanboy, who thinks he knows how the industry works, and that he speaks on behalf of the Devil may cry fanbase.

https://www.shacknews.com/article/7...pectations-capcom-cites-excessive-outsourcing

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-05-capcom-reduces-devil-may-cry-sales-target-by-800k

Of course Capcom would lower their sales target. The original sales target was completely unrealistic

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-01-24-dmc-sells-half-of-what-dmc4-did-in-japan

A game designed to carter to a western audience dosen't sell well in Japen. Oh wow, who would ever have thought that

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/85081/dmc-devil-may-cry-definitive-edition/sales

Lol Vgchartz, but okay. If this is to be trusted then DmC DE actually sold more then DMC 4 SE.

Believe whatever you want, I am ending topic before it goes off rails and becomes a DMC vs. DmC arguement. I've said my piece. Good day sir or madam.

Can't take the heat huh. Well then, you shouldn't have started the fire.

 

[Stylish Nero]

@berto
To me, it's mostly the general aesthetic and a few plot points like demons running amok and them driving around. Grated those plot points DMC could have done already but those feel like how DmC2 would have started.

The other plot points like Urizem and V and the William Blake references could from a potential DmC plot but it also could be an invention of DMC5's team. Nico and her connection to Agnus, Nero losing his arm and the location of Redgrave feel more like DMC's invention but it could also be a potential DmC2.

Granted DmC Vergil feels more like a Willaim Blake fan than Classic Vergil and he'd probably rely on summoning demons more than classic Vergil would.

So who really knows until NT/Capcom says?

I feel the whole William Blake connection is more of Itsuno and his team's machinations rather than DmC/NT especially when you consider how really loose like really loose DmC follows mythical subjects like Nephilim and Succubus (whereas DMC tend to follow it very close to the T). That and outside say the Drekavacs, Bob Barbas, and the Hunter (Nue) DmC seems far less influenced by mythology and old world literature when compared to DMC but more modern day cinema and societal satire.

If DmC2 was going to be influenced by William Blake's works or reference it those elements would've pop up in DmC in as well but it didn't and being influenced by classical literature isn't anything new to the DMC franchise since the series own inception is based off of Divine Comedy.

Honestly DMC5 is doing things the way DMC has always done things just with more Western design aesthetics in mind to appeal to the west so to many it looks like it is being influenced by DmC but at the end of the day DMC5 seems to be drawing from every Devil May Cry game (even 2) and there are things Itsuno liked about DmC same way there are things he liked about 1, 2, 3, and 4. DMC5 seems more like a celebration of all things Devil May Cry rather than being heavily influenced by one title in particular or being a DmC2 sequel masked as DMC5.

 

[berto]

The 3rd point is the one I agree with the most. That they don't understand the characters, even though I don't think it's as simple as that. The way they phrase this point is rather divisive because that should only apply to some, specially considering they created Lady, Nero and the rest of the cast after 1, but when it comes to Dante and Trish, yeah, that most definitely rings true to me, specially after the anime where Dante became everyone's punching bag and the butt of every joke. People don't laugh with him, they laugh at him. The worst part is that they are right to. They turned Dante into a lazy, lifeless, boring nothing. Dante used to be energetic, active, not just willing but eager to act and now? -I need you to do something. -No. -Why? -I have a pizza coming. -what about after? -I'll be sleeping the pizza off. This is most definitely not the character I fell in love with in DMC1 or even 3 for that matter. There is an unwritten rule in writing that states everything will eventually become a parody of itself and that's what Dante turned into. Everything about his character has become an exaggeration or a joke, e.g. there is a pizza box on his desk and now he eats nothing but. Similar situation with Trish. Lady, on the other hand, just became that because she has no father conflict to content with so what do you do?

With Dante and Trish, yeah, I'd say they don't understand the characters, but with Lady it's a matter of not knowing what to do with her.

The thing about Nero being dependant on Dante might have some truth to it. One of the things I've complained a lot about with Nero is that he's got too much of Dante to really be considered his own character lacking enough distinguishing traits outside of his girlfriend and a few other tweaks. I think they should've really pushed that 'twisted' personality they mentioned in the art book because if I hadn't read it there I would've literally never described his personality as 'twisted.' It wouldn't be as romantic but it would've given him a clear distinct presence from Dante.

I will also have to agree with the point that everyone is starting to blend together, how no one sticks out and that the characters don't have a concrete motivation after their initial appearance to consider them more than just being there, but I think that that's a side effect of every game being made to be the possible final game of the series. Lady was great in 3 but her story and everything that defined her journey can't be the new driving force in 4 and we can't have another, equally defining, journey for her in 4 to be as strong in because she's only in it for 3 minutes. Still, I think she deserves more than just a presence, that they all deserve divisive traits besides being a bunch of bad asses who do nothing but bad ass things. I specially have to agree that Dante doesn't need to be overpowered, he doesn't even need to be the most powerful thing around to persevere. In fact, having him persevere despite not being the most powerful guy around would make for better storytelling. From 14:10 to 15:05 is kinda how I see it, but not quite that.

The one thing I don't agree with is this mentality that the whole thing feels like everyone is burned out and ready to tap out because they have been left completely dried out. It seems to me that the staff is trying, pushing the characters, to do something different with the story. I won't know if this is the case until the game is out, or a week before when they spoil it on youtube, but from what I'm seeing there is a genuine effort to not repeat the same concepts that plagued the story of 4.

to be continued...

 

[BrawlMan]

I feel the whole William Blake connection is more of Itsuno and his team's machinations rather than DmC/NT especially when you consider how really loose like really loose DmC follows mythical subjects like Nephilim and Succubus (whereas DMC tend to follow it very close to the T). That and outside say the Drekavacs, Bob Barbas, and the Hunter (Nue) DmC seems far less influenced by mythology and old world literature when compared to DMC but more modern day cinema and societal satire.

If DmC2 was going to be influenced by William Blake's works or reference it those elements would've pop up in DmC in as well but it didn't and being influenced by classical literature isn't anything new to the DMC franchise since the series own inception is based off of Divine Comedy.

Honestly DMC5 is doing things the way DMC has always done things just with more Western design aesthetics in mind to appeal to the west so to many it looks like it is being influenced by DmC but at the end of the day DMC5 seems to be drawing from every Devil May Cry game (even 2) and there are things Itsuno liked about DmC same way there are things he liked about 1, 2, 3, and 4. DMC5 seems more like a celebration of all things Devil May Cry rather than being heavily influenced by one title in particular or being a DmC2 sequel masked as DMC5.

Exactly.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Honestly it's an interesting watch. From a perspective.

1. I do feel like DMC5 is only really made because Capcom wanted another Devil May Cry, while Insuno wanted to make a DmC2 to shake things up. Itsuno DOES sort of look pretty stuff and exhausted in most of the times I've seen him.

2. It's actually pretty funny to see how ass backwards it is that DMC5 is trying to be DmC, while DmC is trying to be DMC5. But then again, that's how its ALWAYS been for Devil May Cry; taking things from past games and adding them to the sequel. That's basic game designing. naturally DMC5 was gonna take elements from DmC. Granted I was surprised that Nero looked closely to DmC!Dante, however DmC wasn't "Dark". It had the most vibrant colors to its world then any Devil May Cry game. DMC5 on the other hand looks the darkest out of all the Devil May Crys.

3. Now THIS I agree with. Capcom feels like they don't know what to do with Dante after DMC3. Hell, in DMC2, he felt like he didn't have any sort of motivation after the big bad is dead. And Lady and Trish DO feel very bare-bones. Also WhAt tHe F hAppENed tO LuCiA?

4. This isn't news for me.

All in all, the video does make some point that I do agree with and do have to say, make sense and speak to me. However there IS one fatal flaw to this entire video.

The game hasn't released yet.

Until I play the game for myself and see what it has to offer, I can't rule out whether or not it sucks. I do that for films (Captain Marvel/Joker/Civil War) and I certainly do that for games. So far, I'm curious from the gameplay I've seen, and I really DO wanna see how the story is. But to say it'll suck right off the bat feels like the whining of an OG Devil May Cry fan who desperately wants everything to stay the same underneath the veiled words of "growth". While I get his points on elevating the characters (god knows Dante needs it more than anyone) I also am going on the wait and see train.

 

[V's patron]

@Stylish Nero
Fair enough.

@berto
TVtropes defines that as "Flanderization".

I think he meant Nero needing Dante's approval rather than Nero being different than Dante.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I also find it funny that he claims Itsuno doesn't want to stick with Kamiya's Dante and wants to move on. Despite Itsuno always falling back to DMC1 and its themes and story especially DMC5 (which seems far more influenced by DMC1 than before). Dante since his conception has been based solely around what Kamiya finds cool at that moment (and Kamiya's own taste or preference in what he finds cool like anybody else can change or slightly alter itself over time) and if he made DMC game today it would fall more in line with DMC4 when it comes to its characterization as it seems Bayonetta seem far more influenced by DMC4 than DMC1 when it comes to tone and presentation. I mean for Christ sake he hired the same writer from DMC3/DMC4 to write Bayonetta 2 because he likes his works on those projects as well as claims Itsuno is doing a good job with the DMC license and it doesn't need him (Kamiya). He respects Itsuno's take on the franchise as much as Itsuno respects his original vision of the franchise (and tries to maintain it). Although Itsuno has its own preferences on what he thinks is cool and thus will inject that in there as well. If he was forced to make DMC1 over and over again he probably wouldn't want to do it.

The anime being made by an outside company as well as the localization/dub also being handled by an outside company and while Bingo is still a writer for the anime, Itsuno wasn't involved much to maintain how the characters would present themselves and directors have more influence over a product than the writers do and Bingo is mostly there to write good stories that connect to overall series (and the anime at the end of the day is canon....sort of...so he needed to be there to maintain that canonicity and not create unnecessary plot holes).

For all the problems the DMC series have had with being made by accident with no plans for franchising (DMC1), unknowingly making a quick and cheap sequel behind the creators back with an unqualified smuck only to have Itsuno try to salvage the game (DMC2), and rushed development due to out of nowhere slashed budget resulting in ideas being dropped and current ideas being unfinished and undeveloped (DMC4) which are more at fault with upper management being ran by autistic baboons than it is on the developers/creators being incompetent. For all those problems it seems DMC5 is trying to rectify all of its series mistakes (being set after DMC2, making Dante the focus again, having Lady and Trish have a more active role, a very strong emphasis on story and characters, etc) nor is it seemingly being held back by studio interference (in some ways Capcom execs have gotten smarter over the past couple years).

 

[Sparda's rejected son]

Of course it’s got a lot of dislikes. I can’t imagine a video criticizing Sonic games going over well with Sonic fans. He, or they, are getting dislikes not because their video or argument is in some way intrinsically bad or malicious but because they’d dare speak badly about a game people are hyped about. The same was true of people who made DmC videos defending it or arguing that it would be good. How many f%c$= you’s do you think they got in their comments section?

These guys seem to have a love of the series and are concerned of how things are going based on its history, and they aren’t wrong about a lot of things they mentioned. It’s just not the popular thing to say right now.

Well to be fair, most Sonic youtube video comments are "Sonic sucks," Modern Sonic sucks," "Bring Back Classic Sonic!" "I want to fu@k Amy while Rouge watches." :bored: So the comments section of youtube isn't exactly a viable source for... anything really. :laugh:

Time to watch this video and see what is up.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Also worst offense was when he said DMC5 was catering a casual audience by including an Easy Automatic mode.....like WTF?? Easy Automatic has been a feature since the first DMC game. All did DMC5 was made it easy access by a button press and thus togglable but penalizes your score for using it.

This entire video reeks of zero research.