DmC originally was going to have lock on right?

[Demi-fiend]

That's...the whole point of why the default controls have two dodge buttons :x

But I... that's what I'm trying to say, you can have it all in one dodge button. I can come up with at least a few ways to squeeze both styles and Angel/demon mode moves (that's three to four functions, more or less) into one or two buttons.

I've been racking my brain on how to do this for a long time now, and while I haven't been able to squeeze all the moves in there, I think I've gotten pretty close.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I still think it could've been shoved into one feature. Angel Dash for "normal" dodging (regardless of which weapon you have), and when you time it right, you can have demon-dodge.

Or better yet... 'demon-release' (shut up, I know that sounds nasty, but there you go).

This way, you can dodge any way you want, including though the enemy in front of you.

I usually think of putting a block and dodge in one defensive action, where dodging requires an input from the left stick. Kingdom Hearts had that :tongue: Then of course, you can still have blocking, Just Guards, dodges, and even Just dodges. Heck, you could even get really technical and get something like Table Hopper in on a half-tilt. KHII FM+ actually had two evasive moves, where one was with a hold of the button and the other a tap.

Although the tough part is that it requires attention to not have much (or no) tilt on the stick if you want to block at the last second during movement @_@ That's the one problem I've had with KH's defense system - although it's rather easily fixed.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I see your point. If you cram in too much, you can screw it up. But if you do it right... who knows?

That dodging "through" an enemy mechanic is still a pretty good idea... one that next to no action games have used, unfortunately. However, the "Defense-Offense" crap in MGS didn't cut it imho. That's one of the examples of, "messing it up" from my perspective.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I see your point. If you cram too much, you can screw it up. But if you do it right... who knows?

That dodging "through" an enemy is still a pretty good idea... one that next to no action games have used, unfortunately. However, that Defense-Offense crap in MGS didn't cut it imho.

I prefer the Prince of Persia "mantle over the enemy" rather than simply clipping moving through 'em. Wasn't DMC4's Mustang supposed to be like that?

 

[AgentRedgrave]

[That's...the whole point of why the default controls have two dodge buttons :x[/quote]
My point was the totally could have just used one dodge button and make the other a lock-on. Seriously I can't count how many times I've had stinger hit the wrong enemy or completely miss, I've never had that happen in any of the other DMC games

 

[Demi-fiend]

I prefer the Prince of Persia "mantle over the enemy" rather than simply clipping moving through 'em. Wasn't DMC4's Mustang supposed to be like that?

Oh yeah, the Arkham games and PoP had that thing. Clipping is more of a... um... "twitchy" feature for more "aggressive" action games, though.

Mustang was... what was that? You could only do it on the ground (eliminating any air-combo possibilities), making it fairly useless. Was that was it was supposed to do? I actually couldn't see any possible use for that mechanic until you compared it to PoP.

 

[OppressedWriter]

My point was the totally could have just used one dodge button and make the other a lock-on. Seriously I can't count how many times I've had stinger hit the wrong enemy or completely miss, I've never had that happen in any of the other DMC games

I call bullshit, I don't know how you have stinger hitting wrong enemies. Lock on is absolutely not necessary in DmC. You literally lock on to the target when you shoot ebony and ivory, its a fluid way to string together combos between multiple targets. I keep saying this over and over, press center camera, and the camera will center onto the target dante is locked on to.

As for someone who has played DmC more than most people, I don't wnat lock on wasting space on R1 or L1, it won't work with the amazing trigger system that allows seamless style switching for combos.

 

[Demi-fiend]

As for someone who has played DmC more than most people, I don't wnat lock on wasting space on R1 or L1, it won't work with the amazing trigger system that allows seamless style switching for combos.

I'd like to suggest that changing the weapon switching function from "hold" to "toggle" -- and having it all mapped to the d-pad could be just as good a control scheme as the current one.

I know you can switch ranged weapons and Angel/demon "Weapon Sets" on the d-pad already, but wouldn't it be better to have it all on the d-pad anyway? There's only five weapons available that you have to worry about anyway, so I don't see any potential hiccups in gameplay.

 

[OppressedWriter]

I usually think of putting a block and dodge in one defensive action, where dodging requires an input from the left stick. Kingdom Hearts had that :tongue: Then of course, you can still have blocking, Just Guards, dodges, and even Just dodges. Heck, you could even get really technical and get something like Table Hopper in on a half-tilt. KHII FM+ actually had two evasive moves, where one was with a hold of the button and the other a tap.

Although the tough part is that it requires attention to not have much (or no) tilt on the stick if you want to block at the last second during movement @_@ That's the one problem I've had with KH's defense system - although it's rather easily fixed.

I actually really dislike having a input that makes you stand still and one that also makes you roll or dodge, it was my biggest pet peeve with the control system in Castlevania, I think if you implement block it has to be a separate button that does nothing but keep you stationary. Otherwise, it just gets frustrating during combat.

On a side note, I finally finished MGR on very hard, and I have a love/hate relationship with it. It's got so much promise but its all lost behind the same terrible game design flaws. It's got cheap enemies, terrible pacing between bosses, too many cutscenes, and the worst offender is the controls and camera, the camera is absolutely atrocious in the game. If you have to fight more than one enemy, its just like good luck, handling the camera is not a skill I want to waste time mastering.

 

[OppressedWriter]

I'd like to think that changing the weapon switching function from "hold" to "toggle" -- and have it swapped to the d-pad could be just as good a control scheme as the current one.

I know you can switch ranged weapons and Angel/demon "Weapon Sets" on the d-pad already, but wouldn't it be better to have it all on the d-pad anyway? There's only five weapons available that you have to worry about anyway, so I don't see any potential hiccups in gameplay.

No not at all. That's the whole point of the seamless switching, if you did what you're suggesting we'd be right back to DMC4's control scheme.

The thing is you can plan combos and always have access to the right weapon, because unlike before you're only toggling between 2 weapons at any given time. So you know that left is going to be aquilas or osiris, and right is going to eryx/arbitrer, and you always have easy access to seamlessly blend in 3 weapons at any given moment. That was the whole point of the triggers, plus the way they also modify attacks to allow the various styles.

Without the way the triggers work now, their wouldn't be any reason to have them if you took away their primary funciton which is to allow access to seamless combo transitions between 3 weapons. Holding and letting go will always be faster than constantly toggling, and you could never toggle fast enough to access all 5 weapons like you can now.

Angel Trigger also modifies jump so it gives Dante the ability to glide and hover, also modifies evade so it can be used like a teleport/trickster ability. It also gives you angel pull + trick up + mustang.
Demon Trigger gives the demon evade buff, which can be combined with angel evade to create table hopper. It also gives you demon pull + enemy step.

 

[Demi-fiend]

No not at all. That's the whole point of the seamless switching, if you did what you're suggesting we'd be right back to DMC4's control scheme.

But that was with styles, though. The only difference between this and DMC4 is that you have to hold it in order to make it work.

Why can't we switch from "hold" to "toggle"? Holding a shoulder button and then pressing another one to dodge doesn't seem all that... seamless to me.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

My point was the totally could have just used one dodge button and make the other a lock-on.

But that seems like the complete opposite of what you said that I quoted. You said that they could have replaced one of the dodge buttons with a lock-on, but then you acknowledge that it's easy to perform the specific dodges with Left and Right shoulder combinations - which is the entire point of why two dodge buttons exist, so that Angel Dodge and Demon Dodge are easy to do.

You can't really have a lock-on without getting rid of the comfort and ease of the default two dodge buttons, because they need to work along with the Angel and Demon mode mechanic.

Seriously I can't count how many times I've had stinger hit the wrong enemy or completely miss, I've never had that happen in any of the other DMC games

Theeeeeeeen you're doing it wrong? Because I don't have any problems, so there's something you're not getting right :x The only time I never hit the intended target is when someone is in front of my target, which...happens in every single DMC anyway, other than DMC4's DT Stinger with how it goes through everything.

 

[AgentRedgrave]

I call bullshit, I don't know how you have stinger hitting wrong enemies.

Well it happened

[/QUOTE]As for someone who has played DmC more than most people, I don't wnat lock on wasting space on R1 or L1, it won't work with the amazing trigger system that allows seamless style switching for combos.[/quote]
It's 1 button, two dodge buttons was completely unnecessary

 

[Demi-fiend]

Theeeeeeeen you're doing it wrong?

Maybe... but it's still too finicky for my taste. Just doing a combo against Vergil makes me lose track of him instead of turning along with him as he moves... I have to turn Dante in order to keep facing him.

Oh... and people saying that it's ok for NG and CV to not have lock-on and then turn around and say that it's not ok for DmC is just -- it just never fails to get under my skin when they say that.

 

[AgentRedgrave]

But that seems like the complete opposite of what you said that I quoted. You said that they could have replaced one of the dodge buttons with a lock-on, but then you acknowledge that it's easy to perform the specific dodges with Left and Right shoulder combinations

my point is the two dodge buttons is unnecessary, you could easily preform a demon or an angel dodge with either R1 or L1. My point is , using one of those buttons instead for a lock on, wouldn't have exactly been that bad

 

[Demi-fiend]

Holding and letting go will always be faster than constantly toggling, and you could never toggle fast enough to access all 5 weapons like you can now.

Is that so? Then there's no other way to make it just as fast then, it seems.

Also I don't remember you ever mentioning that before. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

Fine. You have a point, but other people like... you-know-who will take contention with your findings. Just watch out for those individuals.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

too many cutscenes

Hahahaha. Yop, that's a common Metal Gear franchise complaint :tongue:

Why can't we switch from "hold" to "toggle"? Holding a shoulder button and then pressing another one to dodge doesn't seem all that... seamless to me.

The slightly odd thing about this is that the discussion right now is the return of the R1 Lock system, which has players holding a shoulder button for a whole lot, but now you're talkin' about not wanting the Stance system because you hold a shoulder button a whole lot.

Not tryin' to start sh!t (You know you my boyeeee). It's just sorta chuckle-worthy.

So what is it you're trying to suggest? Just tapping the Angel and Demon mode buttons?

 

[OppressedWriter]

But that was with styles, though. The only difference between this and DMC4 is that you have to hold it in order to make it work.

Why can't we switch from "hold" to "toggle"? Holding a shoulder button and then pressing another one to dodge doesn't seem all that... seamless to me.

But its more than that, I elaborated the way the style functions are implemented in a more organic way without toggling, the game got rid of toggling and made things work around holding and letting go mostly. Instead of sky star glide being a style you toggle into + style button. Now its something that makes sense its angel trigger + jump, it modifies the button that makes you jump into the button that gives you a glide. Its things like that make it a much more logical and intuitive control scheme.

 

[OppressedWriter]

So what is it you're trying to suggest? Just tapping the Angel and Demon mode buttons?

You can do that on the PC it just not ideal though and makes the game way more clunky when it was never desinged to be that way. Because being in angel or demon mode makes shoot become pull 100% of the time, and also messes with your glides and evasive abilities.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Not tryin' to start sh!t (You know you my boyeeee). It's just sorta chuckle-worthy.

So what is it you're trying to suggest? Just tapping the Angel and Demon mode buttons?

I know. I was trying to say that there really wasn't any difference (not backpedaling, just getting "lost"), and that there wouldn't be all that much of a difference, anyway.

Yeah, I was actually trying to suggest that tapping the buttons would be better, but Sam Delirious (ha-ha) up there set the record straight when he said that holding is actually faster.

I think... he might be right. He's got more than a good chance of being right, now that I think about it.

Should more fighting games use the shoulder buttons for certain "hold" functions? Who knows?