DmC Allegory

[Lionheart]

No, it's just odd that you were surprised that I didn't accept your initial apology. Because like I said, I knew this would happen.

I wasn't surprised at all that you didn't accept it, because I didn't mean it as an apology. I was lamenting that you could not talk to me in a serious way. You feel the need to respond with sentences that do nothing but incite hatred, like ''you know what, Lionheart, you talk too much''. Naturally, I do not respond well to that. And yes, I called that behavior douchebag-like, because that's what it is. No way around that.
And so our story ends Seriously, I have no problem with you as a person, but that type of behaviour is something ''up with which I will not put''. Like I said, If you offend a teacher all the time and nobody can stop you, you will get expelled. Just like I will ignore you if you keep ignoring me.

Now, back to the topic at hand, I would hope. I have said what I wanted about it.

 

[Demi-fiend]

That's no excuse. Especially since you come off as confrontational in your initial post towards me (after I calmly told you I found DmC interesting), and you haven't let up since. Then you blame me for my reaction, even though I was thoroughly mellow in my (completely justified) sarcasm. I wasn't even all that aggressive.

I was just bored.

Yes, let's end it here. I'm tired of you playing the victim card, anyway.

 

[Lionheart]

That's no excuse. Especially since you come off as confrontational in your initial post towards me (after I calmly told you I found DmC interesting), and you haven't let up since. Then you blame me for my reaction, even though I was thoroughly mellow in my sarcasm. I wasn't even all that aggressive.

I was just bored.

Yes, let's end it here. I'm tired of you playing the victim card.

This is what I said in that first post: I'm not deprecating your opinion, I was sharing mine. I don't care that you find it interesting, just like you don't care that I did not. What I do care about is factual matters, instead of opinions.

I'm sorry if you're offended that I do not care about that you find it interesting. But your response of ''well, we do find it interesting'' means exactly this: You do not care that I don't find it interesting - that's why you responded by saying ''well, we do find it interesting''. There are no arguments in that sentence; it's a useless sentence to me. I would love to know why you do find it interesting, but in the end, I just don't find it interesting, and you can't change that.

It's called being passive-aggressive. Saying 'fascinating' (like you did) is a sarcastic way of saying 'I do not care about what you said'. Obviously, I do not respond well to that. You started this, so don't cry when I react annoyed. If you don't care, you shouldn't respond in the first place. But yes, let's stop this, because this is a thread about the ideas behind DmC.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Now you're just twisting what I was saying to begin with by saying that "I don't care."

I never said that. I never even implied it.

I was saying that just because you don't find DmC interesting, doesn't mean you speak for everyone when you say it isn't.

And you didn't say that it was your opinion. You said it as if it were a pure fact.

Then you try to put the blame on me when you said that I came off as offensive. And then throw in another insult by saying, "I'm sorry that you feel the need to be offensive." As if I'm weak-minded.

Then calling others douchebags, then backpedaling and saying "Oh no, I only meant, douchebag-like."

You try so hard to hide your original intentions when they're so blatantly obvious, it's a wonder why you even tried to backpedal in the first place.

And I thought you said I was on your ignore list? It's hilarious when people say that "I'll ignore you, then respond anyway." :lol:

 

[Demi-fiend]

Sometimes more can be said with one sentence than the word-diarrhea you've spewed out.

You talk so much -- and yet in reality, you have so little to say.

I'll spell it out for you: No matter what my arguments, you just continue to say that it's all a lie, and then play the victim card.

You have absolutely no ground to stand on, unless you deny everything I've said.

No one can reach you inside your own little "I'm the victim" bubble-world you've created for yourself.

So, there really isn't any point in going any further.

You've name-called, you've blamed others for your name-calling, and now your justification for derailing the thread is, that it's "common courtesy."

You can keep your "courtesy". Your denial. Your "playing-the-victim" tactics. All of it.

All these serve no purpose other than to make yourself look completely innocent of any and all wrongdoing.


It's a coward's way out, and as long as you continue to deny this, and everything else you've done, you will remain a coward.

Yes. I called you a coward outright. Because that's exactly what you are.

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After this, I'm no longer going to respond, no matter how much you try to goad me into it.

Because in the end, it's just more thread-derailment on your part.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Jesus H tap dancing Christ guys. Take it to PMs instead of trying to act all tough in front of everyone else.

 

[Lionheart]

Jesus H tap dancing Christ guys. Take it to PMs instead of trying to act all tough in front of everyone else.

Sorry about those unnecessary posts; this got out of hand fast. The subject was DmC's themes, like companies and bankers being evil and controlling the populace of Limbo, as some people believe Obama and all governments (the upper classes) do.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

The belief isn't what matters, really, it's the parodying societal ills we all know we're facing, and coupling them with (possibly) fictional conspiracies. It's just interesting, is all, because like Happy Friend said, it's not an evil dictator running things like you'd normally see in...a lot of stuff...it's someone running things from the shadows. That's not really done a whole lot, and it was nice to see done again.

 

[Lionheart]

The belief isn't what matters, really, it's the parodying societal ills we all know we're facing, and coupling them with (possibly) fictional conspiracies. It's just interesting, is all, because like Happy Friend said, it's not an evil dictator running things like you'd normally see in...a lot of stuff...it's someone running things from the shadows. That's not really done a whole lot, and it was nice to see done again.

I disagree, since it's at the very least a very common thought among many people (conspiracy theorists and otherwise) that society is controlled and even brainwashed by the upper classes (illuminati or otherwise). I'd rather see an original story, even if it's kind of predictable in some cases. The fact that this theme hasn't been used in games much yet doesn't make it a great theme, or any better done, in my view. But I respect your opinion.

 

[V's patron]

I think the analysis was interesting to say the least, im just not sure that it was a direction i wanted the series to go in.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think the analysis was interesting to say the least, im just not sure that it was a direction i wanted the series to go in.

All the better that it was put to use in a game that has nothing to do with the original series then, huh?

 

[Happy Friend]

Well, I would like to know what story really has all these elements laid out as nicely as this story. Of course there are elements that recur in various novels, films, and games but DmC brings them all together better than anything I have read.

The fact that Mundus states that he controls the world through debt is so blunt that it is both funny and clever at the same time. He shakes down the president, just like the 'too-big-too-fail' banksters did with the bailouts and subsequent quantitative easing. For the real world analog, look not just at the bailouts, but the massive drug money laundering crimes committed by HSBC, for which Obama made them pay but a tiny fine!

For anyone with a critical perspective on the international political economy post-Bretton Woods, post 9/11, post-financial crisis, etc. - DmC is right on the money.

Of course there are people who want to argue that our leaders are honest and the rule of law prevails, but for those who really think that, it would seem that DmC must be morally offensive. I personally think that only a brainwashed naive dilettante would argue for such a version of political reality, but then again that is probably more comforting than the alternative: Democratic governments are a dog and pony show to legitimate rule by a predatory class of corporate/financial oligarchs whose rule is maintained by a massive US national security state and unelected 'independent,' 'technocratic' central banks overseen internationally by the Bank for International Settlements.

 

[Lionheart]

Well, I would like to know what story really has all these elements laid out as nicely as this story. Of course there are elements that recur in various novels, films, and games but DmC brings them all together better than anything I have read.

The fact that Mundus states that he controls the world through debt is so blunt that it is both funny and clever at the same time.

Of course there are people who want to argue that our leaders are honest and the rule of law prevails, but for those who really think that, it would seem that DmC must be morally offensive. I personally think that only a brainwashed naive dilettante would argue for such a version of political reality, but then again that is probably more comforting than the alternative: Democratic governments are a dog and pony show to legitimate rule by a predatory class of corporate/financial oligarchs whose rule is maintained by a massive US national security state and unelected 'independent,' 'technocratic' central banks overseen internationally by the Bank for International Settlements.

If you think bluntness is clever, I can't make you think otherwise, and I'll have to respect that.

And yet, you have not presented a factually well-argumented case as to why you think Obama is a puppet, why you think 'democracy is a dog and pony show', and so on. It's easy to call others' opinions ''brainwashed and naïve'', but you have to present arguments before you can rightfully say that. I don't know whether you're right or wrong about this - you may be, but I don't know, because you haven't presented facts. So for the time being, I remain unconvinced. No offense.

And the point was not that DmC combined so many elements so well. In your first post you argued that its plot is brilliant, which I don't agree with. It's no more brilliant than the plots of previous DMCs to me. The fact that the plot of DmC contains elements that haven't been used in games so often, doesn't necessarily make the plot of a higher quality than other plots. And I've said what I wanted to say now, I think, so I won't be actively following this thread anymore.

 

[EllDawn]

Just a response to it being said that the President is only thinking of the people. In my opinion he proved that wrong when he threatened to stop social security, which senior citizens have no other choice but to depend on. Then again that's kind of personal for me since my parents are both seniors, my dad being over 70 and my mom 69. Since employers aren't that likely to hire seniors and jobs really aren't that available anyway, SS checks are all seniors have. To take that away means killing them. Nursing homes are paid through those checks and, for the most part, family members usually don't want to have to take care of their elders. So, no, I can't believe the idea of the President working to protect the country.

The problems in this country are a lot harder on low income households. Several companies are taking retirees off their insurance, plus current employees. Insurance companies aren't as likely to accept people with severe health issues, or that are above a certain age, making it even harder on American citizens. At least one company, that I know of, is doing this because they're losing too much money. It's the government jobs that haven't shown much of a sign of having this problem.

Again, this is kind of personal for me. So I'm not that likely to be thanking the government, or believing they're really thinking of our well being. They're getting more money while the people they seem to think aren't worth as much are probably going to pay with their lives because they can't buy food due to a lack of money and too many hospital bills, if a hospital will accept them in the first place.

Conspiracy theorists, at times, have a pretty good basis for what they believe. I disagree with the idea that there's a secret society in control. I tend to think the one in control is right in the open and no one's stopping him because they think they don't have the power. You see that in schools, too. Students have more power than they realize, but do nothing. There's always the thought that they'll be punished for speaking out. So a faculty member that's grading unfairly or discriminating against disabled students continue and the students suffer. It all depends on the belief of who has the power, and who doesn't. Otherwise prison guards would have a pretty bad day from the inmates rising against them. After all, inmates greatly outnumber the guards. It would be pretty easy for them to gain control.

Sorry for the rant. I just tend to be anti-government when their choices and threats make things harder for the lower class.

 

[Lionheart]

Just a response to it being said that the President is only thinking of the people. In my opinion he proved that wrong when he threatened to stop social security, which senior citizens have no other choice but to depend on. Then again that's kind of personal for me since my parents are both seniors, my dad being over 70 and my mom 69. Since employers aren't that likely to hire seniors and jobs really aren't that available anyway, SS checks are all seniors have. To take that away means killing them. Nursing homes are paid through those checks and, for the most part, family members usually don't want to have to take care of their elders. So, no, I can't believe the idea of the President working to protect the country.

Sorry for the rant. I just tend to be anti-government when their choices and threats make things harder for the lower class.

That's one of my points, too. A lot of people support socialist parties nowadays because of that sentiment, which is unsurprising. The thing is, you have to make concessions as a leader/party. In my country, they're thinking about making students lend money instead of giving them a basic compensation for their education (student grants or whatever it's called). Do I think that's evil/bad like Happy Friend might? No, not at all - it's just economics. It's sad for the students (and me), but that choice (along with many other choices) will no doubt be implemented to keep the economy from collapsing. If the economy deteriorates, that's bad for everyone, so this is indeed thinking of the people - all of them. According to a website, the deficit in my country is still 16.7 billion euros. That money has to come from somewhere, and sometimes, you can't just leave things alone. Most things in my country are being overhauled, or have been overhauled.

 

[LysseC]

Good work Happy Friend, yours is a very good analysis of all the themes that underlie DmC's plot and social allegory, thanks for posting it: it helped clarifying and organizing themes that popped up here and there in many threads here. However, I have to agree with Lionheart when he says that (if I got how this discussion was evolving correctly), that what DmC says shouldn't be taken at face value. What I mean is, since we are concentrating on the issue of Obama, my opinion on the matter is that probably men like him (people in the government) are not just puppets, being controlled through and through. I also believe, though, that they may be higly influenced, and their choices may be limited, by influential economical actors. This is quite different from saying, though, that they are but marionettes dancing at those powerful lobbies' commands without any freedom of action whatsoever.

 

[EllDawn]

That's one of my points, too. A lot of people support socialist parties nowadays because of that sentiment, which is unsurprising. The thing is, you have to make concessions as a leader/party. In my country, they're thinking about making students lend money instead of giving them a basic compensation for their education (student grants or whatever it's called). Do I think that's evil/bad like Happy Friend might? No, not at all - it's just economics. It's sad for the students (and me), but that choice (along with many other choices) will no doubt be implemented to keep the economy from collapsing. If the economy deteriorates, that's bad for everyone, so this is indeed thinking of the people - all of them. According to a website, the deficit in my country is still 16.7 billion euros. That money has to come from somewhere, and sometimes, you can't just leave things alone. Most things in my country are being overhauled, or have been overhauled.

Why not take money from the people that have it, then? People like Bill Gates who can afford to pay more. People tend to have this idea that the working class is less important because they don't have a cushy job sitting behind a desk at a computer. In all fact it's the working class that make the lives of citizens easier because then they don't have to fix a leaking pipe, or construct a water tank. Instead there are people doing it for them.

From what I've learned a college/university education doesn't guarantee a job like they claim. A lot of employers prefer experience and that's not what you get from school. Most any type of major ends up being turned down by their ideal company in their chosen career and is often left wondering why the degree, which was supposed to be a ticket in, didn't work in their favor.

And as for senior citizens, many of them have done so much for their country that they should be taken care of and not have more taken from them. Taking money from someone that has no alternative income is not acceptable. That's being destructive, not helpful.

Off the subject, but are you from Germany? I'm just curious. I'm mostly going by you mentioning euros.

 

[Lionheart]

Why not take money from the people that have it, then? People like Bill Gates who can afford to pay more. People tend to have this idea that the working class is less important because they don't have a cushy job sitting behind a desk at a computer. In all fact it's the working class that make the lives of citizens easier because then they don't have to fix a leaking pipe, or construct a water tank. Instead there are people doing it for them.

I suppose that sounds like a good idea, but I don't know if it would be fair. Those people like Bill Gates worked hard to get the amount of money they've got. To take a great deal of that away does not seem fair to me. But I think they can miss some of that money, yes, especially when they're still earning so much money every year.

From what I've learned a college/university education doesn't guarantee a job like they claim. A lot of employers prefer experience and that's not what you get from school. Most any type of major ends up being turned down by their ideal company in their chosen career and is often left wondering why the degree, which was supposed to be a ticket in, didn't work in their favor.

I don't think it counts as a 'ticket in', but I do think having finished an education shows a certain dedication that they'd be looking for, and a general assurance that the employees know about a great range of subjects, in case that is needed. I agree, though, that experience has gotten a bit too important nowadays. I mean, how can people ever get a job if the employer constantly asks for experience? That would mean the youngest people don't have much chance of landing a job, and that's already the reality.

And as for senior citizens, many of them have done so much for their country that they should be taken care of and not have more taken from them. Taking money from someone that has no alternative income is not acceptable. That's being destructive, not helpful.

That's a bit of a sentimental statement. Their work for their country does not make them exempt from the rule, however harsh that may be, and however much I hate saying it. I don't know about how it is where you live, but senior citizens can live well enough here, even if they're taxed more. However, I agree that money shouldn't be taken from the people who can't live normally without it.

Off the subject, but are you from Germany? I'm just curious. I'm mostly going by you mentioning euros.

Oh, so you're from Germany, then? Nope, I'm from the Netherlands. Hi, neighbor!

 

[EllDawn]

One idea I saw was to take money from the higher-ups in government. Then it's still government money and they'll get results faster. And people who work in construction, plumbing, any hard labor job, work just as hard or harder. A lot of the time they're putting their lives on the line, too. And they don't get paid as much.

Schools make it sound too much like an education is going to guarantee you a job. Plus there are a lot of students that don't work that hard to get through school. Some have an easy time of it while others struggle. It's not necessarily an accurate way to determine how hard a person will work. Experience at least tells the employer you have an idea of how to handle the stress involved in the job. For starting, though, I do agree they need to give new people a chance. They could provide apprenticeships so a potential employee gets the experience needed.

Here they don't. Nursing homes, for the most part, abuse their residents. A live-in nurse will possibly do the same. And the children don't want to take the time to take care of their parents. Since Obama has mentioned taking care of seniors, at least, as a way of respecting what they've done and how hard they've worked, I'd say they should be supported. Either by their children or anyone who'll do it respectfully.

Nope. I have a sister-in-law from Germany. I'm actually American with a lot of Scandinavian heritage. My dad does not let me forget. lol.

 

[Lionheart]

One idea I saw was to take money from the higher-ups in government. Then it's still government money and they'll get results faster. And people who work in construction, plumbing, any hard labor job, work just as hard or harder. A lot of the time they're putting their lives on the line, too. And they don't get paid as much.

True, they work just as hard, but I actually meant it's about the risks and responsibilities they carry with them. Obviously, if you're responsible for helping govern an entire nation, that pays more than being a plumber. That's why fighter plane pilots get paid quite a lot, as far as I know - they could die at any moment.

Schools make it sound too much like an education is going to guarantee you a job. Plus there are a lot of students that don't work that hard to get through school. Some have an easy time of it while others struggle. It's not necessarily an accurate way to determine how hard a person will work. Experience at least tells the employer you have an idea of how to handle the stress involved in the job. For starting, though, I do agree they need to give new people a chance. They could provide apprenticeships so a potential employee gets the experience needed.

That's true - I've been thinking about quitting my education, because it's clear I don't need it. My brother got handed a language translating and teaching company, and he is now the manager. Sadly, I don't have the social contacts he does. And no, but there's always a certain minimum amount of work involved to be able to get a degree/finish a year, and I think that dedication is what they're looking for. I've been having trouble finding a job, too, because they're just too picky and don't dare to take risks. So I agree.

Here they don't. Nursing homes, for the most part, abuse their residents. A live-in nurse will possibly do the same. And the children don't want to take the time to take care of their parents. Since Obama has mentioned taking care of seniors, at least, as a way of respecting what they've done and how hard they've worked, I'd say they should be supported. Either by their children or anyone who'll do it respectfully.

They abuse their residents? That's messed up.
Yeah, but that's about physical help, then, not financial.

Nope. I have a sister-in-law from Germany. I'm actually American with a lot of Scandinavian heritage. My dad does not let me forget. lol.

Oh, ahahah, nice