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Been a while since I made a thread. Question about Dante absorbing Rebellion.

DragonMaster2010

Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
So Dante was able to gain Sin Devil Trigger and Devil Sword Dante by stabbing himself with Rebellion. So why didn't he transform all those other times he was stabbed? Was it because he decided to merge with Rebellion this time or is it because the sword Sparda was involved?
 

AgentRedgrave

Legendary Devil Hunter
This most likely, as Devil Sword Dante is referred to as the fusion of Rebellion and Sparda in the in-game gallery if I remember correctly.
Basically this. I remember reading some people saying Dante's new sword (Before DMC5 was released) was Rebellion reforged. I thought it was Devil Sword Sparda transformed, into a form to better suit Dante (Similar to Soul Edge). Technically both are right.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups!
Was it because he decided to merge with Rebellion this time or is it because the sword Sparda was involved?

Correct. All of Dante's other first time transformations were outside of his control. Vergil stabbed Dante with Rebellion to awaken his DT (with Dante still hating his demon side at the time and being apathetic) in 3. Dante using Sparda's Devil Trigger was a case of stopping Mundus and the combining of the two amulets. He chose wanting to get stronger by embracing his demonic power.

From the TV Tropes DMC5 Fridge page:

Dante needs a new power up to beat Urizen. Solution? Stab himself in the chest with Rebellion! After all, getting stabbed in the chest with a sword unlocked a new power the last four times it happened! In this case, Dante finally accepting his demonic heritage inherited from Sparda, not just focusing solely on his human heritage from Eva. That he's facing the family portrait symbolizes that acceptance as he absorbs both Rebellion and Demon Sword Sparda to form his own, Demon Sword Dante. It also symbolizes how Rebellion was the opposite of Yamato - where Yamato has the ability to split demonic power apart, Rebellion has the ability to unify demonic power together. Dante overcame the mental "rebellion" that had been holding him back since 3.
 
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berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
He needed a power up and the situation called for it. In terms of actual cannon I don't think it's something they thought about till 5 so any loopholes you might come up with are not going to stand to more questions. For example, why didn't Dante split into his demon half and human half when Vergil stabbed him? Yamato splits and Rebellion fuses? Dante's been stabbed a repeated number of times with Rebellion and he never fused with any other weapon in his arcenal, why now? Why only when they get stabbed and never when anything else gets stabbed by them? If Yamato can open portals why haven't we seen it done before? Best not too go to deep into this or you'll end up asking more and more questions than there are answers for.

Edit: Wait a minute!
After all, getting stabbed in the chest with a sword unlocked a new power the last four times it happened!
We're talking about Rebellion. He only got a power up in 3. The other times he walked it off and once it was a completely different sword. If that were the case, that every time he got stabbed he got a power up, he could just stab himself until he became his own universe or, if he's feeling greedy, keep going until he turned Mexican. Either way, that needs a little revision.
 
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Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
Vergil stabbed Dante with Rebellion to awaken his DT

I never understood this statement. Where is it said that Vergil's intention was unlocking Dante's DT? I'm genuinely asking cause in the actual game, that's not at all what it seems like. Maybe it's said in some other piece of canon media, I don't know.

Given the fact that Vergil makes a mockery of Dante whole game long, stabbing him with his own sword came across more like an act done to add insult to injury (literally) than to bring benefit to Dante. Additionally, he initially just grabs Rebellion and walks away, only turning around to stab Dante as he was showing signs of getting up. If he had really wanted to unlock his DT (for... whatever reason), then he would have done so right away. On top of that, I don't even see why he would even want Dante to unlock his demon form. Didn't seem like he gave a damn one way or the other.

And all that is regardless of whether or not he was actually trying to kill Dante. Somebody made an argument before, in support of the "he stabbed him to unlock his DT" theory, that being his twin, no one knows Dante's biology and how to kill him better than Vergil and so if he really wanted to kill him, he would have done so, therefore stabbing him with Rebellion must have been to unlock his DT. In response to that, as I said before, I think it's more likely and legitimate to think that he did that simply as a way to humiliate Dante in defeat, and even if you believe that he knew that wasn't going to kill him, the fact that he might not have wanted to end his life (which to me, he clearly very much did but whatever) doesn't necessarily mean he wanted to benefit him by actively providing a way for him to unlock his demonic potential. That really sounds like a stretch to me.

any loopholes you might come up with are not going to stand to more questions

Perhaps so but the majority of the specific ones you posed can be easily explained away with a bit of common sense, IMO.

For example, why didn't Dante split into his demon half and human half when Vergil stabbed him? Yamato splits and Rebellion fuses?

One can make the argument that intention plays a pivotal part. On top of that, when Vergil stabbed himself in 5, he did recite some kind of magic formula of some sort beforehand.

Dante's been stabbed a repeated number of times with Rebellion and he never fused with any other weapon in his arcenal, why now?

Same argument as above can be made, about intention. And plus, he never did get stabbed with Rebellion while also carrying Sparda to create DSD (which again, is referred to as the fusion between the two) and tap into Sin DT. It seems to me that you're taking for granted that Rebellion can fuse with any weapon, when the way Dante ponders about the fact that his father gave him Rebellion is a clear hint to Rebellion being only meant to fuse with Sparda, not just any weapon or even Devil Arm.

Now, as a side note, someone could ask, if intention is what triggers these powers, wouldn't that mean that Vergil did indeed intend to unlock Dante's DT when he stabbed him in 3? Well, the game file there kinda denies that, saying simply entering contact with Dante's blood was what made THAT power work, but for the ones that Yamato and Rebellion showed in 5, which were more... drastic, so to speak, that just might have not been enough.

Why only when they get stabbed and never when anything else gets stabbed by them?

An easy argument can be made that being artifacts from Sparda, they're only meant to interact in those ways with Sparda's blood relatives (or even just Dante and Vergil specifically). Similarly to how Force Edge didn't grant Arkham the actual power of Sparda, and was never going to, as Vergil taunted him about.

To me, a far better question would be (and I talk as someone who hasn't read Before the Nightmare, so if the answer is there don't mind me, but even if it is, it still should have been mentioned in the actual game) how did Vergil know Yamato held the splitting power in the first place. And did he always know about it but never used it cause he didn't know precisely what he would be getting into and so was only willing to use it as a last resort? Or did he only find out recently? Who knows. No, seriously, who knows?
 
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BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups!
He needed a power up and the situation called for it. In terms of actual cannon I don't think it's something they thought about till 5 so any loopholes you might come up with are not going to stand to more questions. For example, why didn't Dante split into his demon half and human half when Vergil stabbed him? Yamato splits and Rebellion fuses? Dante's been stabbed a repeated number of times with Rebellion and he never fused with any other weapon in his arcenal, why now? Why only when they get stabbed and never when anything else gets stabbed by them? If Yamato can open portals why haven't we seen it done before? Best not too go to deep into this or you'll end up asking more and more questions than there are answers for.

Edit: Wait a minute!

We're talking about Rebellion. He only got a power up in 3. The other times he walked it off and once it was a completely different sword. If that were the case, that every time he got stabbed he got a power up, he could just stab himself until he became his own universe or, if he's feeling greedy, keep going until he turned Mexican. Either way, that needs a little revision.

I think they were referring to when Nero stabbed him in 4, but it's obvious Dante was just toying with him, instead of getting a power up. You do have point about that, as it should only count 3 times in terms of power ups.

1. Vergil Stabs Dante w/ Rebellion
2. Alastor stabs Dante.
3. Nero stabs Dante (no power up as Dante is just playing around) w/Rebellion by chukcing it like a javelin.
4. Dante stabs himself with Rebellion.
Given the fact that Vergil makes a mockery of Dante whole game long, stabbing him with his own sword came across more like an act done to add insult to injury (literally) than to bring benefit to Dante. Additionally, he initially just grabs Rebellion and walks away, only turning around to stab Dante as he was showing signs of getting up. If he had really wanted to unlock his DT (for... whatever reason), then he would have done so right away. On top of that, I don't even see why he would even want Dante to unlock his demon form. Didn't seem like he gave a damn one way or the other.

And all that is regardless of whether or not he was actually trying to kill Dante. Somebody made an argument before, in support of the "he stabbed him to unlock his DT" theory, that being his twin, no one knows Dante's biology and how to kill him better than Vergil and so if he really wanted to kill him, he would have done so, therefore stabbing him with Rebellion must have been to unlock his DT. In response to that, as I said before, I think it's more likely and legitimate to think that he did that simply as a way to humiliate Dante in defeat, and even if you believe that he knew that wasn't going to kill him, the fact that he might not have wanted to end his life (which to me, he clearly very much did but whatever) doesn't necessarily mean he wanted to benefit him by actively providing a way for him to unlock his demonic potential. That really sounds like a stretch to me.

It's pretty clear in the first fight that Vergil was holding back. Of course he was gonna mock Dante either way too. Yet, it's clear that similar to Dante, Vergil is a blood knight and seeks a good fight too. So they are defintely the sons of Sparda in that regard and not so different from each other. The stabbing worked in three cases, humilate Dante, unlock DT, and slow him down from stopping his and Arkham (the goals he pretended to have on the surface anyway) goal to unlock the hell gate and become a full blooded demon.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
The stabbing worked in three cases, humilate Dante, unlock DT, and slow him down from stopping his and Arkham (the goals he pretended to have on the surface anyway) goal to unlock the hell gate and become a full blooded demon.

Forgive me, but I don't follow. How would making Dante more powerful slow him down? If anything, it makes it easier for him to catch up with Vergil after he comes to.

Additionally, Vergil is definitely a more no-nonsense kind of guy than Dante is. He's not like Goku who purposefully gives his opponents a way to have a fair fight. Maybe he was holding back, but once again, that's not a valid reason to necessarily assume he was actively trying to help Dante in unlocking his DT. Still sounds like a stretch to me.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups!
Forgive me, but I don't follow. How would making Dante more powerful slow him down? If anything, it makes it easier for him to catch up with Vergil after he comes to.

Vergil may be a no nonsese nemesis, but he clearly enjoys a good fight. Dante's stabbing and DT activation did slow him down. Arhkam suggested they leave once Vergil got Dante's amulet. Vergil begrudgingly agrees with him and take their leave. Plus, we don't know exactly how long Dante was passed out, and plus he went in to the mouth of that giant flying demon. They did not plan on that of course, but helped in slowing Dante down. In Mission 13, if it wasn't for the whole blood of the maiden is needed to open the portal the demon world too, Vergil would of accomplished his goal earlier right at that point. But we all know how the actual song and dance went.
 

V's patron

be loyal to what matters
So Dante was able to gain Sin Devil Trigger and Devil Sword Dante by stabbing himself with Rebellion. So why didn't he transform all those other times he was stabbed? Was it because he decided to merge with Rebellion this time or is it because the sword Sparda was involved?
Dante was looking to recreate Vergil's "ritual" so maybe "intent" has something to do with it?

Most of the other times he was in a fight and the opponent got the better of him. Dante Devil Triggering after Vergil's first fight could be explained away as a survival instinct kicking in.
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
I think they were referring to when Nero stabbed him in 4, but it's obvious Dante was just toying with him, instead of getting a power up. You do have point about that, as it should only count 3 times in terms of power ups.

1. Vergil Stabs Dante w/ Rebellion
2. Alastor stabs Dante.
3. Nero stabs Dante (no power up as Dante is just playing around) w/Rebellion by chukcing it like a javelin.
4. Dante stabs himself with Rebellion.
If we’re sticking with in-game only then, even as you pointed out, there’s only been two cases of a power up via Rebellion stabbing. Alistor wouldn’t count because, by cannon, none of the powers he gets from it are new to him. I understand that the implication is that intention and emotion has a real and even tangible impact in supernatural matters, but this is an inconsistency, nonetheless. Why and how does Vergil’s intent to kill Dante equate to the intent Dante had when he stabbed himself to merge with the two swords?

When you go back to DMC3, it doesn’t matter how you slice it, the Implication is that Dante ‘awaken’ his demon powers because he was dying. It was a survival instinct situation. Rebellion is supposed to be a reflection of Dante, it changes form to reflect his nature, a symbolic representation of who he is, so when it changes to a more democratic form in 3, while Dan was pinned down with it, it wasn’t because it was ‘merging’ or unlocking anything. It was reflecting Dante’s nature. Something had just snapped awake within him. Remove 5 from the equation. In its own sequence of events this is the conclusion to what happened in 3. It’s very much intentional and long standing cannon for 15 years.

Now 5 comes along and changes it and, thus, so it is, now. It is what it is. Thems the breaks. However, this wasn’t an intentional happening. The whole ‘it merges things’ or ‘it unlocks powers within Dante’ weren’t factors until 5. These weren’t the long-standing but unnoticed elements that had to be spelled out. It’s a new addition to fit the plot of 5 and I would even say that the idea was another fan service moment. Making the stabbings/impalements, which were becoming tradition, a bigger deal. Well, either way, this is cannon, now. What can you do?
 

DragonMaster2010

Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
When you go back to DMC3, it doesn’t matter how you slice it, the Implication is that Dante ‘awaken’ his demon powers because he was dying. It was a survival instinct situation. Rebellion is supposed to be a reflection of Dante, it changes form to reflect his nature, a symbolic representation of who he is, so when it changes to a more democratic form in 3, while Dan was pinned down with it, it wasn’t because it was ‘merging’ or unlocking anything. It was reflecting Dante’s nature. Something had just snapped awake within him. Remove 5 from the equation. In its own sequence of events this is the conclusion to what happened in 3. It’s very much intentional and long standing cannon for 15 years.
Speaking of DMC3, now that DMC5 has it where he transformed after being stabbed by Rebellion, how come Rebellion changed form?

I know in DMC3, Dante only became Devil Triggered because he was about to die, but why did Rebellion transform?

And then, another question now that I think about it; when Vergil stabbed himself to remove human from Devil, he literally separated from V in order to become Urizen. So why didn't Dante separate from his human self to become a full demon like Vergil did?
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
I know in DMC3, Dante only became Devil Triggered because he was about to die, but why did Rebellion transform?

The very post you quoted answered you already.

Rebellion is supposed to be a reflection of Dante, it changes form to reflect his nature, a symbolic representation of who he is, so when it changes to a more democratic form in 3, while Dan was pinned down with it, it wasn’t because it was ‘merging’ or unlocking anything. It was reflecting Dante’s nature.

And then, another question now that I think about it; when Vergil stabbed himself to remove human from Devil, he literally separated from V in order to become Urizen. So why didn't Dante separate from his human self to become a full demon like Vergil did?

Once again, this was already addressed. As I said, probably a matter of intent. And he did utter some kind of magic formula when he split himself, which he never did when he stabbed anyone else with Yamato, Dante included.
 

DragonMaster2010

Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
Ah. I getcha. Granted I was dead tired when I read @berto 's post :whistle:

EDIT: So what if Nero was stabbed one of those swords and decided to fuse with them? Would it work, or would him having a little more human in him then devil negate it?
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
So what if Nero was stabbed one of those swords and decided to fuse with them?
That's the question, isn't it. This was a thing that became a matter of plot convenience and it seems very clear cut at first but when you start to add other perimeters how does it work, really? Nero is of the Sparda bloodline so if he wanted to, let's say, remove his demon arm and bloodline, could he? They make it seem like Sparda left the sword to Dante for that purpose but did he, really? Think about it because that would imply that he left the other sword to Vergil for that reason meaning that, when you get down to it, he wanted Dante to fuse with Sparda and Rebellion but for Vergil to rip himself in half. Add to that, if that is indeed why does it mean that is that something only Dante and Vergil can do or can anyone? The swords are said to have those powers, not that these are things it can but only in the hands of a son/descendant of Sparda. This is a very open ended question.
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Omni 2020
If I was to guess I would say nero may have a different outcome, considering he is quarter demon from what we know

A devil arm fusion of rebellion would need for him to have another devil arm of his own

And yamato and the ritual, would probably have removed the devil bringer from him

Again though just guessing here
 
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