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All about Dragon Ball/Z/GT/Super

Sparda's rejected son

For Edenoi!
Premium
Supporter 2014
Dragon Ball isn't without flaws and contradictions. However I have found that if you view DB episode 1 all the way to DBZ 291 you realize that the characters really do develop. Son Goku starts off as a ignorant, innocent Tarzan boy if you will, who grows up to be a expert martial artists who has saved the universe from a pink bubble gum monster. Piccolo starts off as the reincarnation/Son of Demon King Piccolo who wants nothing but to kill Goku. Now's he's Gohan's surrogate father, teacher, and one of Goku's friends. So in a world where anime characters are over powered and Kirito like, Dragon Ball is refreshing. Then you throw in GT and Super and DB gets even better! That is what I think now as a adult.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
@Sparda's rejected son
The only two guys I think got some sort of actual, legit, meaningful development in their character and not just in their combat prowess are Piccolo and Vegeta, to be honest. The only two, imo.

@Z218
As an adult I never thought about it much until recently, when I came to the conclusion that DBZ, while still with its moments, is not really all that and is way overrated.
 

Sparda's rejected son

For Edenoi!
Premium
Supporter 2014
@Foxtrot94 So you don't put much stock in Goku's development? I thought he had superb development. Let's examine.

Dragon Ball episode 1:

Son Goku is a ignorent Tarzon who eats, sleeps, and kicks fish while naked. He has no idea what a girl looks like until Bulma shows up. He has never seen the ocean or cities, all he knows is the mountains.

Dragon Ball:

Goku learns that despite his abnormal strength their are hundrends of stronger people out there. Like Master Roshi, Major Metalictron, General Blue, Mercenary Tao, Grandpa Gohan, Tien, Demon King Piccolo, God, and finally Piccolo Jr. Goku learns what brutally and "evil" is thanks to the Red Ribbin Army. He gets his first taste of anger, and sorrow when Kuririn dies by Tamberine'd hands.
He then learns heavenly ways thanks to Mr. Popo and God. The series ends with Son finally winning the Martial Arts Tournament and getting married. My point is that Son Goku is different character by the end of Dragon Ball. A learned hill-jack if anything.

Dragon Ball Z:

Five years pass and now Goku is daddy! He then learns he's a alien and understands his fighting lust is a product of his genes. He then gives up his life twice to save his son and in general to win. Then he wants Goten and Kid Trunks to beat Majin Boo because they are the future. He has to get involved because they screw up and well "if Goku can't do it who will?"

Dragon Ball GT:

Son Goku exists in this show to protect his granddaughter. Everything he does is to protect Pan and his family, he is that old grandpa who saves the day in the background and foreground.

Dragon Ball Super:

Because this series is before "the end of Z" Goku again learns that he is weak compared to Lord Beerus, the other gods, Jiren, and more. He is learning to move his body without thinking, so in this series it's all about fighting.

Other than Super Goku does grow in character is what I am saying.
 

V's patron

be loyal to what matters
@Foxtrot94

There are shows i liked more than dbz such as Jojo and Yu Yu hakusho. As i got older i just leaned more into cerebral storytelling/witty writing/ conflicted characters etc and dbz didnt fullfill that niche.

So its i liked it once upon a time but other shows appealed to me more.

Like you can like Superman but Daredevil is your favorite superhero now etc.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
So you don't put much stock in Goku's development?

I don't. But mind you, I'm only talking about DBZ, as I agree with you on DB, I haven't watched much of Super and don't remember GT.
His character doesn't really change much, as I see it. Yes, he discovers new things, sees new things, learns new things, yet his character still doesn't go through much change. What you did over there was listing his character traits, yet my point is that those traits remain the same.

Which is even more evident if you compare him to Piccolo and Vegeta, and how they changed throughout the show. Vegeta especially. He goes from absolute ruthless killer with no good in his heart into a father who sacrifices himself for the safety of his family.
Piccolo, from an evil, vengeful tyrant wannabe to caring tutor and father figure and protector of the Earth.
THAT is the development I'm talking about, the events that occur shaping up a new form for the character. Goku goes through all kind of stuff but remains static, any kind of change you could find in him is still a minimal one, and that's one of the things he's notorious for, being a static character.

Now with this I'm not trying to convince you or anything. I guess it's a matter of perspective in the end, and perception. After all, the way one perceives a character is subjective. If you think Goku has some great character development, then it must mean you and I see him from different angles, and that's the beauty of being fans of something, right? "Il mondo è bello perché è vario", we say here.
 
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ef9dante_oSsshea

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Omni 2020
Vegeta vs toppo will be interesting to see , since toppo was on par with goku ssjb kaoiken x1 in the other tournament

And it is safe to assume he may be stronger since then
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
I'm honestly raising an eyebrow at both the characters and the fandom on this latest episode.
First we have the characters assuming Kale "went berserk" again just because she powered up. Hello? All she did was power up. She's not immediately charging Goku or going "SON GOKU" in her rabid voice, she lost her eyes for a few seconds. Considering how many callbacks there were to the previous entries in the series, Krillin should've had a flashback to the time Future Trunks went USSj. Long power-up sequence (IIRC, it ended the episode on a cliffhanger and started the next episode), Trunks lost his eyes for a bit and got huge muscles, he actually started looking like Broly, didn't respond to Krillin calling him, then he casually got his eyes back and looked like he "came to his senses". So I predict Kale isn't even berserk like the characters are claiming. We don't have any evidence of it just yet.

Second, the NEP. I'm not saying what it is in order to not spoil, but it's an acceptable turn for the next episode just because they already foreshadowed its allowance with Roshi's Mafuba requiring a tiny bottle (which Roshi somehow had multiples of and took with him into the tournament beforehand). Zeno let it go just because it was "cool"/"neat"/whatever word it was he used, and shut everyone up. So unless the fandom suddenly writes for Toei or is Zeno, the complaints don't make sense. Zeno is easily entertained by flashy things.
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
Goku is definitely going to need Blue. Red is getting punched around and outpaced by Kefla's base form.
All in all, I loved this episode. The animation style looks like Tadayoshi Yamamuro or Keisuke Masunaga had a hand in it-- I flashed back to the episodes of Goku vs. Cell and Gohan and Shin vs. Buu and the angular, dramatic way they characters were drawn.
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
The fight against Kefla was very satisfying in this episode. I'm glad she didn't get taken out like a punk. I'd say she's more worthy of her powerups than Frieza. It's funny to see fans complain about the female Saiyans, but they still accept that Frieza went from being bested by a Super Saiyan (and surpassed by the likes of Dr. Gero messing around with some cybernetically-enhanced teenagers) to SSB level just because he "trained for a few months" and then mastered the stamina issue because "mental training in Hell", and in the same breath they're theorizing that Vegeta of all people is gonna suddenly master Ultra Instinct to help Goku take on Jiren when the most damage ever done in his fight vs Toppo was the "second fiddle" comment from Toppo.

Anyway, the episode was fun. Glad it took a bit of strategy and creativity in the battle instead of ATATATATATATATATATATATATATATA. Those Shin Godzilla lasers made me laugh out loud, the beam-surfing Kamehameha was still hype, and Goku sounded a bit like Black when he talked in his UI form.
 

Sparda's rejected son

For Edenoi!
Premium
Supporter 2014
I jumped for joy when Kefla (did I spell that right?) was blasted out of the ring. I was getting fed up with that up -start because whenever those two were on screen the story would come to a halt. I am ready to see this arc end because it has gone on to long for my taste. Give me UI Son Goku VS Jiren part 2 and end this.
Bulma's voice actress is gone and this would be a nice arc to end on. Toei should animate the redrawn ending of the Dragon Ball (Z) Manga and end on a high note.
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
Universes 2 and 6 went out like good sports. Vados is also officially one of the funnier angels in the roster, glad to know she won't be sitting by herself on some empty benches.
 

Sparda's rejected son

For Edenoi!
Premium
Supporter 2014
Much like with Gowasu none of the Universe 7 cast showed any emotion sans (seemingly) Vegeta. Goku could've have looked at Hit and said something because out of all the universes #6 was the only one we knew anything about. I guess I was starting to get attached to those guys and now POOF they are gone. Fleeting.

Edit: In Dragon Ball related stuff I unlocked the "Bye bye Xenovere " achievement today. That means I'm pretty much done with the game. Yeah, DLC5 gave us extra achievements but the "core" game stuff is finished and now I'm left wondering "does my Namekian character looked good dressed as Son Goku?"
 

Sparda's rejected son

For Edenoi!
Premium
Supporter 2014
Unless he doesn't master the attacking aspect but uses the dodging aspect while he charges up a powerful attack. Similar to what he did against Kelfa. (I may have spelled that wrong)
 

ROCKMAN X

Keyser Söze
Long time no see, DMC Forums! I love how this thread is still going. XD I gotta say, my hype for DBS has died down rather awfully. DBS has a lot of flaws and so did DBZ but the thing that really made me drop dbs is that it lacks that one thing which made me love Z. Of course i could rant&nitpick the inconsistencies&animation quality of super like most critics but its been done to death, the core reason why DBS is so unappealing to me is because it lacks organic storytellnig and moment to moment character growth that made DBZ more than a mindless action show, which DBS sadly appears to be.

Let's take Gohan's Kamehameha, one of most Epic moments in Z and see why its so good. It wasn't just about cell VS gohan it was about Gohan being in shock and being uncertain of himself(like he always was) while everyone around him was trying to give it all. Gohan is a character who went from a timid boy to a reluctant warrior who tried to help others in distress(mostly in vain) into a true hero. Same could be said for Goku&Trunks's SSJ transformations they were cool moments that had an impact on the characters themselves.

DBS has many cool moments but none of them have any real value to them, SSG,SSB,SSBKaioken, Ultra Instinct etc are all cool stuff but they have no bearing on character growth, and the way the characters are written in DBS is just boring&amateurish. Vegeta is made into this flanderized parody of himself, after THIS scene Vegeta is regressed into THIS, seriously!? is this the best way to write Vegeta's character? by making him retread the same obsession with surpassing Goku? Vegeta gave up his childish desire to play catch up Goku and rather just focused on being his own man. Even GT with its awful Vegeta character design got this right.
76afe9780f6ec7e8d5e5aba6ccde6108--trunks-dbz-briefs.jpg

And Trunks just maybe my least fav character in DBS, his Crying&whining overdone to the point of annoyance. This isn't the cut throat silent badass Trunks from Z who always kept it to himself and the fact that he pretty much chooses to not accept his failure just makes him a pathetic guy who would rather go to a new universe which is similar to his universe so he won't feel bad about it, like i get that Akira wanted to give Trunks a "happy ending" but there's no happy ending here, universe was destroyed and it won't ever come back. Speaking of which, Future Bulma is ONE character DBS who was written well and she's killed very soon so she's treated like Piccolo from GT, and mai was just thrown in there to give Trunks SOMETHING, anything to care about in a world where there's literally no mortals left... in fact, why even bother? just go back to peaceful timeline and let Zamasu have his timeline with no mortals left! what was even the point of fighting at this point?

074ABB14E5930D5638856B2C163C46E393ABCF89
Zamasu was also interesting with his moral&philosophical dilemmas but then he just became a Freeza 2.0 or a Broly 2.0, just some jerk obsessed with Goku(because he's the main guy) and just irredeemably evil, it would've been much more interesting if they followed Zamasu's narrative of being a good guy. Rather than just making him a sadistic murderer complete with evil smirk and evil psychotic laughter, why not make him act like he's genuinely doing a good thing? That would have been very interesting to see a villian who thinks he's doing good but is actually doing something horrible, Zamasu was such a good villain and they ruined him.
legendary_super_saiyans_broly_and_kale_by_chiefwam_by_tashahemlock-dbhmjap.jpg

Finally, i really have almost nothing to say about TOP despite the fact that ironically its the saga of DB which has the BIGGEST stakes ever and where characters are "Supposed" to be fighting for survival, but garbage like this doesn't convince me that its actually a survival tournament. So yeah and then there's this jiren guy and *Yawn* and there are some Saiyan girls who can fuse and be SSG level or something. I think i'm already done with this arc and can't wait to see it end already! I have a whole new appreciation of GT because it at least had one well written villain bebi and Goku&Vegeta were mature&wise and GT did try to tell you a decent story TOP is best described as a Storyless Saga.
 
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Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
Looks like Ep 122 is going back to Yuya Takahashi's animation style, judging from the previews. As for 121, Android 17 proved himself to be the real MVP. I'd joke here that someone on the animation team loves him from the movie-like way his attack vs. Aniraza was rendered, but seriously. That was well-animated. ( Meanwhile they keep reusing Freiza's transformation scene from 20+ episodes ago because they can't catch lightning in a bottle twice, lol )
 
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