A Better Stance Switch

[ReRave]

Here's a personal system I made up:

3 Attack Types:
-Rebellion (Normal)
-Demon (Charged/Heavy)
-Angel (Rapid/Light)

Example:
-Combo A- Triangle, Triangle, Triangle
-Arbiter Drive Combo A- hold Triangle at any point during Combo A (i.e. Triangle, (hold)Triangle, Triangle)
-Osiris Spin Combo A- pause at any point during Combo A (i.e. Triangle--Triangle, Triangle)

This way, you don't have to hold onto any buttons in order to change modes. Plus, it would allow all weapons to be have a demon and angel form.

So your propostition is to cut out the Stances and incorporate everything into combo-routines? That only means, that you would have less combos/moves in the long shot, don't you think?

Edit: I am pretty drunk at the moment, so forgive any logical mistakes.

 

[darkslayer13]

Here's a personal system I made up:

3 Attack Types:
-Rebellion (Normal)
-Demon (Charged/Heavy)
-Angel (Rapid/Light)

Example:
-Combo A- Triangle, Triangle, Triangle
-Arbiter Drive Combo A- hold Triangle at any point during Combo A (i.e. Triangle, (hold)Triangle, Triangle)
-Osiris Spin Combo A- pause at any point during Combo A (i.e. Triangle--Triangle, Triangle)

This way, you don't have to hold onto any buttons in order to change modes. Plus, it would allow all weapons to be have a demon and angel form.

So what you are saying is there should be only one combo per form for each weapon and there should be no other moves for the angel and demon stances (including no angel lift or demon pull dispite the fact that those moves are a key part of platforming as well as combat) taking out most of the moves in the game just to avoid holding a button? I don't see how that would be an improvement. Would you mind explaining it to me?

 

[Railazel]

So your propostition is to cut out the Stances and incorporate everything into combo-routines? That only means, that you would have less combos/moves in the long shot, don't you think?

Edit: I am pretty drunk at the moment, so forgive any logical mistakes.

So what you are saying is there should be only one combo per form for each weapon and there should be no other moves for the angel and demon stances (including no angel lift or demon pull dispite the fact that those moves are a key part of platforming as well as combat) taking out most of the moves in the game just to avoid holding a button? I don't see how that would be an improvement. Would you mind explaining it to me?

No, not at all. I'm saying that instead of having Modes, they could be attacks. AKA:
Normal Mode---> Normal Attack
Angel Mode---> Light Attack
Demon Mode---> Heavy Attack

And each attack type will be accessed by different forms of input. For Example:
Normal Attack---> press attack button
Angel Attack---> pause between button presses
Demon Attack---> hold button presses

 

[Tiran]

Um, normal mode is normal attack (Rebellion) Light mode is light attack (Osiris) Heavy mode is heavy attack (Arbiter).

All you would have managed to do is turn it into an unnecessary mess that lowers the amount of moves possible, and makes it more difficult to handle.

 

[AngelMode]

Um, normal mode is normal attack (Rebellion) Light mode is light attack (Osiris) Heavy mode is heavy attack (Arbiter).

All you would have managed to do is turn it into an unnecessary mess that lowers the amount of moves possible, and makes it more difficult to handle.

^
this

Though I kinda liked the Style system. I will miss you, Trickster. <--- my favorite style.

I mean, they have added elements from each style, like the angel dash thing or parrying for Royal Guard, but angel dash doesn't seem like it can be used in battle at all, it's more for traversal. Trickster was not very much used for traversal, rather it was used to dodge things and get close faster.

 

[Railazel]

Um, normal mode is normal attack (Rebellion) Light mode is light attack (Osiris) Heavy mode is heavy attack (Arbiter).

All you would have managed to do is turn it into an unnecessary mess that lowers the amount of moves possible, and makes it more difficult to handle.

First of all, Normal Mode is Normal Mode, it incorporates its only style of combat unique to the others, so it's more than just an attack type.

Now what I'm saying is instead of having modes to access different attacks, you can put all the attacks onto a single button with different inputs. Same thing with special moves and movements. It's not that complicated, Bayonetta pulled it off by having gun and punch/kick attacks all on the same button, and plenty of games have had different attacks such as light and heavy attacks on the same button as well with heavy attacks being the same as charged attacks. A game like DmC can benefit from that since it promises efficiency, hand freedom, and allow greater attack variety.

Here, I'll use different examples:

Normal Dodge---> X + D-pad
Angel Dodge/Dash---> D-Pad + X, (immediately)X
Demon Ram---> (hold) X + D-Pad

Angel Grab---> Up + O
Demon Grab---> Down + O
Normal Grab---> O (O (again) + D-Pad, for swings/throws or alternative grab attacks)

You see where I'm getting at now? If you were allowed to make up extensive combos, here's how one would like:

Triangle, Triangle, (pause) Triangle, Triangle, Triangle, (hold)R1 + Down + Triangle, (pause) Triangle, (hold) Triangle

Translation: Normal, Normal, Angel, Normal, Normal, Demon Launcher, Angel, Demon

All that with just the Triangle button, here's with Grabs:

Triangle, (hold) Triangle, Down + O, Triangle, (pause) Triangle, Triangle, Triangle, Triangle

Translation: Normal, Demon, Demon Grab, Normal, Angel, Normal, Normal, Normal.

Now if you guys don't get it up to this point, I would be forced to pull up the dreaded Youtube.

 

[Nelo_Vergil]

:ermm::/ that control confuses me. aside from that it sounds like that gameplay method defeats the purpose of having multiple unique weapons. It makes some sense, even if it confuses me, but it isn't better then the current setup or pervious one for that matter.

 

[Tiran]

First of all, Normal Mode is Normal Mode, it incorporates its only style of combat unique to the others, so it's more than just an attack type.

Now what I'm saying is instead of having modes to access different attacks, you can put all the attacks onto a single button with different inputs. Same thing with special moves and movements. It's not that complicated, Bayonetta pulled it off by having gun and punch/kick attacks all on the same button, and plenty of games have had different attacks such as light and heavy attacks on the same button as well with heavy attacks being the same as charged attacks. A game like DmC can benefit from that since it promises efficiency, hand freedom, and allow greater attack variety.

Here, I'll use different examples:

Normal Dodge---> X + D-pad
Angel Dodge/Dash---> D-Pad + X, (immediately)X
Demon Ram---> (hold) X + D-Pad

Angel Grab---> Up + O
Demon Grab---> Down + O
Normal Grab---> O (O (again) + D-Pad, for swings/throws or alternative grab attacks)

You see where I'm getting at now? If you were allowed to make up extensive combos, here's how one would like:

Triangle, Triangle, (pause) Triangle, Triangle, Triangle, (hold)R1 + Down + Triangle, (pause) Triangle, (hold) Triangle

Translation: Normal, Normal, Angel, Normal, Normal, Demon Launcher, Angel, Demon

All that with just the Triangle button, here's with Grabs:

Triangle, (hold) Triangle, Down + O, Triangle, (pause) Triangle, Triangle, Triangle, Triangle

Translation: Normal, Demon, Demon Grab, Normal, Angel, Normal, Normal, Normal.

Now if you guys don't get it up to this point, I would be forced to pull up the dreaded Youtube.

Bayonetta has Two different attack buttons- one for kicks, one for punches- AND a separate button for gun attacks. What are you talking about?

Plus, having more than one attack button is always preferable to just one as it opens your options immensely! Also incorporating the d-pad into the control scheme as well as the joystick is stupid.

Also, having to hold down and charge for all heavy attacks slows down the attack by the amount of time needed to charge an otherwise normal attack into a heavy one. A designated attack type layout would read instantly as a heavy attack with the flick of a button making game-play faster and smoother.

The attack types are attached to certain weapons in this game, not to styles.

With the form based combat, I can fight how I wish just selecting the weapon that I choose without having been locked into a certain style of play. Instead I can switch my entire move set on the fly.

Your layout would require complex button combos to perform simple moves in order to to differentiate one type of move from another. That is the essence of the canned combo system. Not at all what DMC is about.

 

[asurai]

It's not a an absolutely horrible control scheme, though. The major issue is if by having to do a slight pause for an angel attack then you have no way to start off with an angel attack in a combo. However the other major issue with it is that it is slow. Very slow. If I have to charge up an attack for a demon weapon, that is invaluable time that I could be using by just simply mashing the triangle button to do regular normal attacks. The same deal with the angel attack also applies. If I have to pause that's invaluable time I'm wasting. Even if it's only a second. In a DMC game that could make all the different. Now if this were applied to another game, a slower game at that, then it could possibly work out pretty decently well. Of course, this is all just my own opinion on the matter. So overall I don't think it's a horrible system at all, it just does not fit DMC, or DmC for that matter from the looks of it. This might seem like rambling, however I do feel that people are not giving DmC credit in the regard that everyone thinks it looks "slow" compared to previous DMC's, but in my opinion it for sure looks sufficiently fast enough. However that is just from what I 've seen from trailers and gameplay videos. It is of course something we will have to see for ourselves when the demo comes out. Since they have said they do desire to give us one. So I am fairly confident it will indeed have one.

 

[chocolateghost79]

It's not a an absolutely horrible control scheme, though. The major issue is if by having to do a slight pause for an angel attack then you have no way to start off with an angel attack in a combo. However the other major issue with it is that it is slow. Very slow. If I have to charge up an attack for a demon weapon, that is invaluable time that I could be using by just simply mashing the triangle button to do regular normal attacks. The same deal with the angel attack also applies. If I have to pause that's invaluable time I'm wasting. Even if it's only a second. In a DMC game that could make all the different. Now if this were applied to another game, a slower game at that, then it could possibly work out pretty decently well. Of course, this is all just my own opinion on the matter. So overall I don't think it's a horrible system at all, it just does not fit DMC, or DmC for that matter from the looks of it. This might seem like rambling, however I do feel that people are not giving DmC credit in the regard that everyone thinks it looks "slow" compared to previous DMC's, but in my opinion it for sure looks sufficiently fast enough. However that is just from what I 've seen from trailers and gameplay videos. It is of course something we will have to see for ourselves when the demo comes out. Since they have said they do desire to give us one. So I am fairly confident it will indeed have one.

not trying to disagree with your opinion, but i wanted to point something out to you when you talk about the arbiter being a slow demon weapon. if you think about all dmc games have a slow but powerful weapon and that is the ifrit/beowulf/gilgamesh weapon. the arbiter is slow but powerful much like the ifrit/beowulf/gilgamesh weapon is slow but powerful. just something to think about.

 

[asurai]

@Choco: Indeed that is true. No denying that. I was referring to Railazel's proposed control scheme of having to hold down a button for the demon weapon to attack. Apologies. I should have been more specific.

 

[chocolateghost79]

@Choco: Indeed that is true. No denying that. I was referring to Railazel's proposed control scheme of having to hold down a button for the demon weapon to attack. Apologies. I should have been more specific.

oh okay no worries buddy.

 

[Railazel]

Bayonetta has Two different attack buttons- one for kicks, one for punches- AND a separate button for gun attacks. What are you talking about?

You hold the punch or kick buttons to use guns as well.

Plus, having more than one attack button is always preferable to just one as it opens your options immensely! Also incorporating the d-pad into the control scheme as well as the joystick is stupid.

What?

Also, having to hold down and charge for all heavy attacks slows down the attack by the amount of time needed to charge an otherwise normal attack into a heavy one.

Again... what?

The attack types are attached to certain weapons in this game, not to styles.

I know that.

With the form based combat, I can fight how I wish just selecting the weapon that I choose without having been locked into a certain style of play. Instead I can switch my entire move set on the fly.

Same thing with my layout. It's basically the same as DMC's.

Your layout would require complex button combos to perform simple moves in order to to differentiate one type of move from another. That is the essence of the canned combo system. Not at all what DMC is about.

You think Up + O is complex?

The major issue is if by having to do a slight pause for an angel attack then you have no way to start off with an angel attack in a combo.

That's the only issue.

However the other major issue with it is that it is slow. Very slow. If I have to charge up an attack for a demon weapon, that is invaluable time that I could be using by just simply mashing the triangle button to do regular normal attacks. The same deal with the angel attack also applies. If I have to pause that's invaluable time I'm wasting. Even if it's only a second. In a DMC game that could make all the different. Now if this were applied to another game, a slower game at that, then it could possibly work out pretty decently well. Of course, this is all just my own opinion on the matter. So overall I don't think it's a horrible system at all, it just does not fit DMC, or DmC for that matter from the looks of it. This might seem like rambling, however I do feel that people are not giving DmC credit in the regard that everyone thinks it looks "slow" compared to previous DMC's, but in my opinion it for sure looks sufficiently fast enough. However that is just from what I 've seen from trailers and gameplay videos. It is of course something we will have to see for ourselves when the demo comes out. Since they have said they do desire to give us one. So I am fairly confident it will indeed have one.

You do realize that charging and pausing in between attacks is a natural part of DMC, right? So by your definition, DMC is a naturally slow game, which it isn't.

DMC isn't about being fast, it's about being well- timed. That's what seperates the pros from the newbs in any game. Otherwise, weapons like Beowulf, Ifrit, Gilgamesh, and even Arbiter would be a hindrance because they are all slow.


From what I'm hearing of everybody, it seems like you guys are just overthinking my control scheme because, really, it's basically DMC's with some slight additions to it. If you don't believe me and are having doubts about how my control scheme can work, look at this:

 

[Tiran]

The combo systems you displayed don't allow for the instant weapon switching. Also, There are moves in Dmc that require you to hold an attack button to perform a powered attack like throwing Arbiter's blade.

Also, we haven't seen the full moveset of this game. It's already been said that Dante has a "Bewildering array of moves AND combinations..." So I think this game is in good hands without having to be like these other games or following your overly convoluted control scheme.

 

[asurai]

I'll admit it's quite possible I'm over thinking it. However I did not say it was a bad control scheme. I simply said I did not feel as though it felt DMC. I'll admit if I'm wrong however gladly if it looks that way. I do think the control scheme you have could certainly be viable for lots of other games. As long as the game was built around it, of course.

To further explain my own opinion; Here is how I was thinking of things.

Example:

DMC3:

Beowulf is slow, yes. However I need only tap a button to execute an attack and only need respond appropriately tto a telegraphed attack. Also not every attack needs require a "charge". Which is where your timing argument far as I can see comes into play.

DmC:

Arbiter is slow, far as we know, however it does not require a "charge" to execute an attack. Simply tap the attack command while in Demon Stance.

Proposed Control Scheme:

Every demon weapon requires a "charge" from how it was described. Unless I'm misreading that, which I may very well be doing admittedly.

Furthermore, in the default control scheme for DmC to go from an Demon to an Angel attack it goes as such;

Trigger +/-> Attack (That is one thing I'm quite curious about. Would if we press those two at the same time receive an attack of the appropriate stance or of the stance we were in prior?) -> Trigger +/-> Attack

It requires more button presses, however I can do that quite quickly. More so, it is as quick as my fingers allow me to be.

With the proposed control scheme it would go

Attack(hold)->pause->Attack

The thing here is that we haven't a clue of in your mind how long the pause and how long the attack button must be held to execute those attacks.

To start off with an Angel attack is impossible as well because it requires a pause for the attack. You cannot go

Pause->Attack->etc.

For obvious reasons. Though perhaps a viarant could work. Although I'm not sure of if the XBOX controller is similar to the dual shock in this regard. However on the dual shock there is a difference between a light tap, a normal tap, and a hard tap of a given face button. So perhaps a light tap of the attack button could equate to the angel attack, a normal tap would equate to that of the human attack, and a hard tap would equate to that of a demonic attack. This would preserve functionality while still keeping it all on a single button. Thoughts? Although if the XBOX controller does not support pressure sensitivity then this would be impossible on that system with the default controller.

Once more, I do not feel that your control scheme is bad at all. I simply don't think that it would work as intended for the game you're proposing it for.

And in response to Tiran's message: With his proposed control scheme though it would leave two buttons open at the top. Perhaps modifiers for the attacks? At least that is what I'm assuming could be done. Also I don't feel that it is really that convulted, at all. It is rather elegant, actually. I feel though that it would do better to have a game built around that kind of control scheme though.

 

[berto]

This conversation has become more complicated than need be...

 

[asurai]

I apologize for my part in that. I simply like discussing things like that, is all. It does not help any either that I have a rather bad habit for rambling.

 

[Laurence Barnes]

i like the one from number 4