What would you change about Nero

I think if nero was more like lady im terms of personality, he would be better.

She has real trauma, and yet has an iron will and grit in 3.

I think having Nero a bit older in the next game would be a good move.

He's got that "never give up" attitude. Like me. Kids got his priorities straight.

Even batman get tired though. Wonder how Nero will handle it?

I wonder how kamiya would have written him, i bet he would have been far less of a complainer and crybaby ha ha.

I think fundementally it would have been better if he was nonchalant over the whining, he has a lot of potential as a character.It just needs to be realised.

Nero is a good idea but poorly handled in 4 and 5.

I rather retire him and the others, moving on to someone new. I hope Capcom learns from their missteps.

Well in the novel it shows lucia has feelings for dante, let them get together and have a son or daughter who is 3/4 demon and 1/4 human and has the same style of fighting as dante but with their own unique style.

Have them take up the fight internationally, and leave nero to fight in fortuna and the urban setting.

ef9dante_oSsshea said:

I wonder how kamiya would have written him, i bet he would have been far less of a complainer and crybaby ha ha.

I think fundementally it would have been better if he was nonchalant over the whining, he has a lot of potential as a character.It just needs to be realised.

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If he didn't have flaws he'd be a mary sue character. Nero is younger. Less experienced. I think him being a bit whiny makes sense. Otherwise he might be too much like Dante.

Dante made it work in DMC3. He used humor to cope. But I don't think Nero can make it work. Without his whiny traits then we wouldn't be seeing the look of conflict and pain on his face in the truck just before he goes out to beat sense into Dante and Virgil. It's this pain that gets people to relate to the characters.

Take Mary (lady) for example. When she talks about her dad. It still clearly haunts her. Subtle moments like these really make a big impact.

The problem is Nero isn't really elaborated about. Virgil was. It's more clear there. But Nero is like a "side" character. We've yet to really get a really good look at him. The closest we come to it is at the end on the phone, just before the last fight. Where he stops wallowing and instead commits. He's growing as a person, but it's not going to be a rapid procress.

Plus if he wasn't whiny then Virgil wouldn't have backhanded him before leaving. That was amusing. Just like Nero did with Dante. Must run in the family.

ef9dante_oSsshea said:

I wonder how kamiya would have written him, i bet he would have been far less of a complainer and crybaby ha ha.

I think fundementally it would have been better if he was nonchalant over the whining, he has a lot of potential as a character.It just needs to be realised.

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The tryhard attitude he had in 5's beginning felt like a regression. It didn't work with DmC and it was more cringy in 5.

Nero hating Dante for withholding the information about Vergil being his father is more interesting/worthwhile to me.

Nero's problems in 5 are more plot related. Having him team up with a human version of Vergil that looks like Vergil rather than some guy would've helped earn the ending they wanted.

The tryhard attitude he had in 5's beginning felt like a regression.

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He got called dead weight. Of course it was. Works better in 5 then DmC.

Dante going "F you" to a boss without context wasn't cutting it. At least 5 has context.

Taramafor said:

He got called dead weight. Of course it was. Works better in 5 then DmC.

Dante going "F you" to a boss without context wasn't cutting it. At least 5 has context.

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I disagree as his relationship with Dante wasn't that developed in 4 or the interim between 4 and 5.

Him being insecure about being called "dead weight" never felt earned to me.

V's patron said:

I disagree as his relationship with Dante wasn't that developed in 4 or the interim between 4 and 5.

Him being insecure about being called "dead weight" never felt earned to me.

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Time passed between 4 and 5, clearly. We didn't get the "on screen". So it's left to our imagination to fill in the gaps.

It's a game. Not a TV show. That's the price to pay. And since we're already up to DMC5 if there had been another game inbetween 4 and 5 it would be milking it too much. The devs wanted to get right to the action.

I think the next game will slow down a bit first. Like how DMC3 built up.

Taramafor said:

Time passed between 4 and 5, clearly. We didn't get the "on screen". So it's left to our imagination to fill in the gaps.

It's a game. Not a TV show. That's the price to pay. And since we're already up to DMC5 if there had been another game inbetween 4 and 5 it would be milking it too much. The devs wanted to get right to the action.

I think the next game will slow down a bit first. Like how DMC3 built up.

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I disagree as they chose to tell a more complex story than previous entries. So i have to judge them on it. I'm fond of storytelling in gaming so that's my prerogative.

This is also a thread about rewriting Nero so I chose an element of Nero in 5 to change.

V's patron said:

I disagree as they chose to tell a more complex story than previous entries. So i have to judge them on it. I'm fond of storytelling in gaming so that's my prerogative.

This is also a thread about rewriting Nero so I chose an element of Nero in 5 to change.

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Before even considering what to change about Nero, first let's consider why he's the way he currently is.

Where Nero is concerned we get very little. The part where Virgil thanks Nero which gets Nero thinking is interesting though. Virgil's also never been known to thank anyone before. Does that mean Virgil suspected Nero was his son before the last fight? I get the impression Virgil knows Nero is his son. Probably suspects yet isn't ready to admit it.

I also noticed how Dante was trying to coddle Nero. Worst thing he could have done. Nero almost became a coward. Then he goes "Sod that, I'm bursting out the truck." If Nero hadn't done that he might be wallowing and self blaming. An interesting "What if" situation to ponder on.

3 has a complex story too. Though it doesn't really fill in the gaps with Virgil. Even long before 5 I knew the line "You can't protect anything" meant Virgil lost something. Nero's mother most likely. Since Nero never had his parents around he was left to find his own way.

4 was... Half of a game. Let's be honest. Introduces Nero. Shows Dante kills people for asking questions. Dante really doesn't like communication apparently. Agnus was correct. Nico might have to have a chat with Dante about that at some point. If nothing else it's something that can be worked into the lore.

What I'm pointing out here is reasons for Nero to change. If not for Virgil's kindness do you think he'd have fought for their acceptance? It's clearly a copy and paste of Luke and Vader in Star Wars. But they make it work. Nero is Luke. Virgil is Vader. Dante is Obi Won.

What I'd like to see with Nero is him mellowing out a bit when he's older. Calm and calculated like his dad. Yet able to loosen up a little like Dante. So we might see a new Nero in the next game. That's what I'd do at least. 10 years later or something. Maybe wearing blue or green.

Taramafor said:

Before even considering what to change about Nero, first let's consider why he's the way he currently is.

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In the history of the franchise's development, in my opinion, starting with 4 (some would argue that it started with 3) the developers have had this tendency to always go with the safe options. If you look at the concept art for Dante's DT, for example, they had way better ideas than the one we ended up with; in fact, they used that better one for DMC5. Reuben Langdon had Daniel Southworth audition for the part of Dante because they weren't sure Langdon could pull off a more mature Dante. In Nero's development notes it shows that he went through several character concepts. At one point he was going to be more intellectual, a Sherlock Holmes type character I think is how they described him.

In each instance, and these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, the ideas were so bold and interesting with a good deal of potential, but instead they ended up going with the safe routes. Dante's DT in 4 is not bad but it's not as good as what they had. Rather than trying for a more mature Dante they rather just stick with keeping him as he was in 3 because that game is the popular one, and rather than try an new character type Nero was nothing more than a Dante clone, so much so that people actually asked Capcom when they released the announcement trailer 'how come Dante looks so much younger?' meaning that even his appearance is little more than a Dante reference. I almost called it a knock off but that's too dismissive. On a quick side note, the same thing happened when they announced 5 and people thought it was DmC Dante when they saw Nero. The point is that Nero is the way he is because the status quo is comfortable and they never seem willing to pull the bandaid and just be drastic with the changes. Nero is meant to replace Dante and, therefore, he's a Dante substitute in every way.

Taramafor said:

Does that mean Virgil suspected Nero was his son before the last fight?

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No. In a few interviews Reuben Langdon mentioned that he took a lot of liberties when translating the dialogue from Japanese to English. In the original Japanese dialogue, when Dante is telling Vergil about 'his son,' in English we get the line 'I don't care about my son' while in the original Japanese the line basically 'I don't know anything about a son.' He was thanking him for all he did for V.

Taramafor said:

coddle

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Please tell me you mean cuddle because a coddle is an soup made from leftovers and if finding another use for dead weight leads to that I hope it's just spelling error.

Taramafor said:

Dante going "F you" to a boss without context wasn't cutting it. At least 5 has context.

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This is an argument I see often but I do not agree, at all. It's obviously a DmC reference, that's a given. The issue is that putting your middle finger up in the air and screaming 'F You!' in the middle of a fight is just random obscenity. There is no context to it. Every other line of dialogue and obscenity out of Nero's mouth in that fight has context. This is just a random outburst. He wasn't prompted, there was no build up to it, he wasn't responding to anything. You press down on the D Pad and he screams F You. Imagine seeing that during a boxing match or a futbol game. In DmC it's a great example of poor writing that belongs on some edgy kid's first short story. Here, though, it's a random and nonsensical. Adding actual context would've helped that thing immensely. Even if was just looking at his father for an instance like he's thinking and doing the motion. That's at least context. What we have here has none and, therefore, is no better than the ones in DmC.

Taramafor said:

Even long before 5 I knew the line "You can't protect anything" meant Virgil lost something.

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It's about their mother. Someone translated a book called Trinity of Fates and in it it talks about how Dante and Vergil's one uniting desire was to protect their mother.

V's patron said:

I disagree as they chose to tell a more complex story than previous entries.

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You could most definitely argue that they not make a more complex story but, rather, a Frankenstein of all the stories. A tree raised by Vergil so he can get more power is the same as 3. Just replace tree with tower. The characters had quite a few elements altered from their canon to fit with DmC's as a reference to that game, too. There are so many thing that connect to other DMC works that you could argue, and I am, that the game isn't able to tell its own story because it's too busy telling all of the other DMC stories.

V's patron said:

Him being insecure about being called "dead weight" never felt earned to me.

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Isn't it the other way around. He's insecure so getting called dead weight really hit hard. I agree that Nero never shows any signs of insecurity so it doesn't feel earned but it would fit. I still argue that if you are going to insult everyone you meet you should have a thick hyde because it's gonna come back to ya and that reflects poorly on him, especially when it was over a month ago.

berto said:

Please tell me you mean cuddle because a coddle is an soup made from leftovers and if finding another use for dead weight leads to that I hope it's just spelling error.

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I know you weren't talking to me, but I'll explain anyways. The English verb "to coddle" means to treat something gently or with extra care - often used as a pejorative when referring to people such as "parents who coddle their children end up making them unable to handle the harsh reality of society when they leave home and try to work" or whatever.

@ef9dante_oSsshea
That could work but I was hoping for someone more disconnected from the Sparda family drama.

The Qlipoth could be the birth of new heroes and villians.

Although if you wanna draw what that character could look like- be my guest.

@berto
Nero does feel like he'd be thin skinned. Maybe his ideal rival isn't someone stoic but someone who could trash talk?

By complex, I just meant 5 had more moving pieces with the Human demon split, the callbacks to the past, the 1 month time jump etc. In comparison the other games felt more straightforward.

I think I might've preferred the Sherlock Holmes characterization more than Nero's Shonen anime bruiser characterization he has now. I became more interested in the cerebral rivals as I got older.

I remember 3's concept art had an older version of Lady but they deaged her for the game. I think 3 was always centered around Dante versus Vergil but I'm surprised they didn't think about setting it after 2.

At one point he was going to be more intellectual, a Sherlock Holmes type character I think is how they described him.

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It's possible this might be what Nero will become later. Due to the book Virgil leaves him. Maybe he'll even start quoting one liners.

Please tell me you mean cuddle because a coddle is an soup made from leftovers and if finding another use for dead weight leads to that I hope it's just spelling error.

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Coddle means to hand hold. Dante was trying to stop Nero facing his dad. Perhaps due to what happened with Mary/Lady in 3. But if Nero hadn't faced his dad he could be living with regrets. Dante had good intentions but if that drove Nero to running away from his problems then it would only do more harm then good.

I actually see more insecurities with Dante then Virgil or Nero. But it takes a trained eye to see it. Mary/Lady in 3 managed to shut up his jokes though. Dante plays tough but he's a softy really. Virgil would be the ruthless one. Nero finds the balance somehow.

As for Nero and V, does that mean Virgil remembers what V went through? That would explain why Virgil thanks Nero.

@Taramafor the argument could be made that reboot dante having an attitude and not caring is down to his childhood, the cutscenes show a history of violence, self harm and being in and out of homes and fights and only having himself to rely on.

While nerp had kyrie, credo and the order to take care of educate and support him and has nowhere near the same horrors as both versions of dante. Yet nero is still a giant baby and a punk, and even after getting the girl and winning in 4 he is still the same after the timeskip.

How much time does he need to mature and be more grounded?, dante had real growth in 3 and though he still keeps his playful side in 4 and 5 he still has moments of clarity and seriousness where he does what is right. While at the same time in both games nero moans and gets hung upon trivial stuff.

Nero could be written so much better, and should be. Clearly it is not down to age or experience though as if it was he would have been way more grounded in 5 and it just seemed like how he was 4 minus kyrie being in danger.

the argument could be made that reboot dante having an attitude and not caring is down to his childhood, the cutscenes show a history of violence, self harm and being in and out of homes and fights and only having himself to rely on.

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We get a hint of this from a quote in 5. Specifically when Dante says to Virgil "She kept searching and searching. Until it killed her." This could mean Dante was overcome with survivors guilt when he was young. He's trying to get through to Virgil with this "Strength is a choice" speech. But it's not that simple. Dante's oversight here is where's the option? It's about those rock and hard place situations. As Virgil said to Dante, "You never lost anything". Mother doesn't count. That's a shared connection. Virgil has had to strive to make something from nothing. While Dante had support.

While nerp had kyrie, credo and the order to take care of educate and support him and has nowhere near the same horrors as both versions of dante.

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Yea. Nero isn't used to people calling him out like Dante does. So it makes sense. He's outside of his home place. From "posh and proper" to "slums".

How much time does he need to mature and be more grounded?

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4 was when Nero was still "finding himself". 5 is where Nero is starting to get it together (and at the very end of 5 goes beyond it even). So he'll probably get there by the next game. I get the feeling we'll see a drastic personality shift with him.

dante had real growth in 3 and though he still keeps his playful side in 4 and 5 he still has moments of clarity and seriousness where he does what is right.

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DMC3 was pure Dante though. Keep in mind 4 and 5 is more of a mixed bag. While Dante might do some things right he also does some things wrong too. He's a hypocrite with Agnus for example (complains about killing yet quickly kills). It's also very suspect how Dante didn't answer Agnus's question. Basically Dante's biggest flaw his his lack of listening skills and inability to answer hard questions.

Well, that and constantly getting stabbed my his own sword. It's a meme at this point.

There's also the fact that Dante is always the first to try and provoke his enemies into fighting. Which applies even with Virgil. Have you noticed in the second fight in DMC3 that Dante is the first to point his sword to start a fight? At least in the 3rd fight he's going "Get up" and even tries to save Virgil. But it's about that "first" move. Virgil nails the first move with arkham. Even with his sword drawn he's listening. Waiting. Patient. Observing every subtle detail. Dante isn't that on the ball there.

Now compare this to what Nero does. "Find another way." Backhand slap. He's got the right idea. It's also why Nero gains Virgil's respect. The speech between Nero and Virgil when they stab each other nails that part. To quote: "Feeling accepting yet?" "Of your existence, or your strength?" "Both you ****ing jackass!"

How can you kill someone that is trying to fight for acceptance? Virgil's only move at that point was to come up with some excuse to stop the fight. After being on his own for a long time (Dante not withstanding) he wasn't about to discard that. Not after that "You never lost anything" line. The way urizen said that line was said with such pain and sorrow too.

It's all in the little details.

Taramafor said:

We get a hint of this from a quote in 5. Specifically when Dante says to Virgil "She kept searching and searching. Until it killed her." This could mean Dante was overcome with survivors guilt when he was young. He's trying to get through to Virgil with this "Strength is a choice" speech. But it's not that simple. Dante's oversight here is where's the option? It's about those rock and hard place situations. As Virgil said to Dante, "You never lost anything". Mother doesn't count. That's a shared connection. Virgil has had to strive to make something from nothing. While Dante had support.

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I said reboot dante though lol, as in from DmC by ninja theory, so any quote from 5 has no bearing on him.

Reboot dante saying f you to a demon comes from him being flippant and even rude by nature, but he is hardened from past trauma and a terrible life up til the events of the game and he never had support of any kind until he meets kat

Taramafor said:

There's also the fact that Dante is always the first to try and provoke his enemies into fighting. Which applies even with Virgil. Have you noticed in the second fight in DMC3 that Dante is the first to point his sword to start a fight?

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I mean, what was Dante supposed to do? Ask Vergil if they could hold hands and sing kumbaya as they walk out of the tower together? No, he's there to stop Vergil from opening the gates to Hell and dooming humanity. He knows that Vergil isn't going to stop without Dante resorting to force and so of course he comes with his sword at the ready. :/