General DMC 5 Discussion

[berto]

@Stylish Nero For someone who doesn't want to debate you sure say a lot of things that open up to debate, and that's just at a glance, I haven't actually read the whole thing, yet. Plus you start by saying you have other priorities but I can't imagine that that essay you typed up took only a few minutes. I'm gettin some rather mixed signals here. Got a lot off your chest, at least, though?

Anyway, I also have other things I need to work on so it will definitely take me awhile to really get through that whole thing in detail. I can't even begin to imagine what I said to garner such a lengthy response so I'm extra curious.

 

[V's patron]

I'm wondering if William Blake was involved in the occult in DMC, even being a summoner himself.

that could explain why V carries around a book of his poems and treats it like it's holy

 

[Ronin]

I'm wondering if William Blake was involved in the occult in DMC, even being a summoner himself.

that could explain why V carries around a book of his poems and treats it like it's holy

I would agree too if there's a connection. The Divine Comedy? William Blake? Wonder if there are others too?

• Arthur Conan Doyle?
• Rudyard Kipling?
• Edgar Allan Poe?

 

[berto]

I'm sorry but those are way better. Trish has a pretty face but, just like I've said about Dante, the hair makes her look weird and it hides their pretty face, looks like a mop or like it's always wet. A new, more kempt hair would do wonders for both of them.

On the other hand:

Not really news worthy so I might as well plant it here.

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[Goldsickle]

My main issue with the dodge is the fact you can only dodge to the side.

The lock-on dependent skills are always kinda screwed.
If you tilt a direction just as the enemy moves, you won't get the move you want.
And you can't guarantee you'll be facing the correct enemy the second you press R1.

Both MGR and DmC showed me that lock-on-free signature moves is the future of hack and slash.
The one big weakness is the need to tilt the analog stick twice for some signature moves.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I hope the enemies are super aggressive on the harder difficulties.
Bayonetta is overpowered but in NSIC enemies jump on you and super armor through your combos. They really test you skills. DMC3 has tough enemies that do the same. And those games are the pinnacle of the genre.

I hope so. It is Devil Hunter/Human mode so oh well. I will give the enemy design for 5 this they seem to lack any bullshit found in the last half of DMC3 and DMC4 enemies (Mephisto, Faust, Dullahans, Fallens, Chimera Assaults (don't mind Chimera Scarecrows), and the Blitz would be the best enemy if it wasn't for the dumb lightning armor) granted the Red Raptors and the Giant Empusas look like they could be some fierce mofos and the Nobodies seem ripped out of DMC1 and while they were a menace in that game with more advanced gameplay mechanics I can get my payback after being manhandled by those laughing bastards in DMC1. The enemies look more fair this time and they don't attack you off screen and the camera doesn't go out of its way to mess with you and actually shows the action. Nelo Angelos can interrupt your attacks and counter you like the Angelos in DMC4 but aren't as fast, can't fly (fair I suppose), and don't have shields (unless they can use their swords as shields...I think they can). The problem isn't aggression (although the fact they wander about before they do anything like DmC enemies is a bit annoying) or super armor but more or less they lacking the tools to deal with airborne players. Outside the bats and Hell Judecca's stretchy arms they all seem to lack ranged or airborne options. With how improved aerial combat is now you think they will have enemies to compensate for that....well I guess the Sin Scissors could fix that and I didn't see half of the enemies in action yet. Maybe I'm overthinking this. Well best to wait for the final product but it will probably be on par with DMC4 (just without the cheapness) which is good enough.

The lock-on dependent skills are always kinda screwed.
If you tilt a direction just as the enemy moves, you won't get the move you want.
And you can't guarantee you'll be facing the correct enemy the second you press R1.

Both MGR and DmC showed me that lock-on-free signature moves is the future of hack and slash.
The one big weakness is the need to tilt the analog stick twice for some signature moves.

I hear you. I feel that both ideas have their ups and downs. Me personally I can adapt to both although in DmC DE I have Stinger set to Lock-On Dependent (and would have my launchers too if I could) and MGR was more input based than DmC so it better utilized it there. I know Sengoku Basara just have you tilt the l stick forward and special attack to perform stinger like actions. However SB has 2 attack buttons (a combo button and a special attack button). Same goes for Rising where its forward forward light is a stinger and its launcher is tied to forward forward heavy. DMC will have to have 2 dedicated attack buttons then, have the launcher tied to a combo string, and/or a dedicated launcher button.
With modern technology its quite possible to fix issues with control schemes without really changing the control scheme. Like one to fix that issue is by having a functional and dynamic camera where if you are lock on to a target no matter where the enemy changes direction the camera will always aligned to the direction you were facing so if an enemy moves behind you and you are locked to the camera immediately snaps to behind you so you are facing the same direction no matter where the enemy moves to (seems DMC5 is doing this) so your inputs will always be the same. Another solution is making inputs rotational rather than an exact input. Most DMC inputs are either forward, back, or back to forward. They rarely if ever use left or right so you can make instead of being the exact forward input they can code it so any direction facing south of the direction you are facing whether it be Southeast or southwest is read as a back input and vice versa for forward inputs. This gives players some more leeway to perform inputs*cough*Calibur/Shuffle*cough* and less likely for errors.
A quick fix to changing targets while lock-on would be allow to target change by just flicking the stick in any direction (not pressing R3 to change targets.

That is just how I would fix these issues. Another solution would be to not have the Lock-On button be a lock on but just a move modifier. However, some people still want a lock-on feature and outside MGR Platinum usually includes Lock-On in all of their games....well the good ones at least. So the issue becomes having a dedicated lock-on button and a move modifier button and in that case toggle lock is better (because being asked to hold 2 buttons at once to perform simple actions is becoming excessive) and toggling lock-on isn't any worst than holding it but when you have to keep changing weapons, modes/styles, and other functions it becomes a bit hectic and in DMC's already packed control schemes where will you put a dedicated lock-on button?

 

[Stylish Nero]

what does itsuno mean when he says he wants to make it like a hollywood movie, plus 15 hours is serviceable for a game like this

He means the style, tone, and presentation will have the look and feel of western hollywood movie using Marvel movies as an example. Prior DMC was more Japanese live action/anime influenced in its cutscenes and presentation (with a mix of some Hollywood movies but the Hollywood movies they were using as reference were anime influenced like the Matrix).

Take the opening cutscene is very Deadpool inspired.

As for the length if this length is exact and represents actual time it takes for an average player to beat it then its a few hours longer than DMC3 making it the longest DMC game. Most action games can barely push past 10 hours to be honest and some of the ones that do are special cases like say GoW 2018 or the Soulsbourne games which are more of a semi-open world games.

DMC5 is looking to have the least amount of backtracking and 15 hours are a perfect length. These games are meant to replayed again and again so you don't want to make them too long. Action games are meant to be relatively non-stop and entertaining from beginning to end. The last thing we want is to jam pack the game with boring padding and filler to have a long game session.

The real question to ask since some missions have multiple characters to choose from and in some of those missions the characters go their own path and crossover at times meaning Mission 3 and Mission 4 is a pretty different experience for V then it is Nero. So do those 15-16 hours take into account replaying certain missions again as another character or is it 15 hours straight forward each mission once.

 

[berto]

Both MGR and DmC showed me that lock-on-free signature moves is the future of hack and slash.

That's not the whole deal, though. MGR I had no issues with but with DmC I could never keep Dante from not targeting the right opponent on more than one occasion. The lock on isn't just for directional inputs, it's to lock on to an enemy or object and prioritize them over others. Repeatedly I was trying to have Dante helmbreak one enemy only to have him turn around and attack the dude next to me. Bayonetta has the right idea of not getting rid of anything and giving the player the option of both.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

I haven't had time to read through all 50 pages of this thread and I know the current discussion is about the lock on, but has the possible plotline for the game been discussed?
Is the whole thing going to revolve around going on this mission V tasks them with, only to have them all kind of K.O.'d by this new bad guy and chugged into a nightmare realm where everything seems real but it isn't? Or will they be thrown into an alternative reality, and then everybody else (aside from the MC the gamer is playing as) die one by one, until eventually whoever escaped the new bad guy's torment breaks his jaw and rips out his eye to break his concentration and then all the other characters under the onslaught 'wake up' from their nightmares?
What is the speculation raging at the moment?

 

[V's patron]

Capcom did mention the possibility of other playable characters depending on player demand. So I guess we'll get character-centric dlcs after the game comes out.

Itsuno mentioned the theme of Love from the first game being carried over to 5. The art book 3142 described each game as having a theme of love (ie DMC3 is family, DMC4 is romantic). So I guess the game deals with family commitment via Dante/Nero dealing with Vergil's return.

 

[gmc]

He means the style, tone, and presentation will have the look and feel of western hollywood movie using Marvel movies as an example. Prior DMC was more Japanese live action/anime influenced in its cutscenes and presentation (with a mix of some Hollywood movies but the Hollywood movies they were using as reference were anime influenced like the Matrix).

Take the opening cutscene is very Deadpool inspired.

As for the length if this length is exact and represents actual time it takes for an average player to beat it then its a few hours longer than DMC3 making it the longest DMC game. Most action games can barely push past 10 hours to be honest and some of the ones that do are special cases like say GoW 2018 or the Soulsbourne games which are more of a semi-open world games.

DMC5 is looking to have the least amount of backtracking and 15 hours are a perfect length. These games are meant to replayed again and again so you don't want to make them too long. Action games are meant to be relatively non-stop and entertaining from beginning to end. The last thing we want is to jam pack the game with boring padding and filler to have a long game session.

The real question to ask since some missions have multiple characters to choose from and in some of those missions the characters go their own path and crossover at times meaning Mission 3 and Mission 4 is a pretty different experience for V then it is Nero. So do those 15-16 hours take into account replaying certain missions again as another character or is it 15 hours straight forward each mission once.

V seems like the type of character that'll take a while to get used to since hes never been in a dmc game before so parts with him could make it more extended unless people have no problem with his style

 

[Goldsickle]

The lock on isn't just for directional inputs, it's to lock on to an enemy or object and prioritize them over others. Repeatedly I was trying to have Dante helmbreak one enemy only to have him turn around and attack the dude next to me.

The only real problem are the far away enemies you need to shoot or Pull when there are other enemies in your path.
This might be the only real time when lock-on is necessary for me but at least it allows you to run while it's active.
I don't recall ever having that problem where my melee hits another enemy.
I made sure to keep tilting the stick towards the enemy I want to attack.
Not a problem, since we all have been tilting the stick all the time to make our character go from one place to another.

Like one to fix that issue is by having a functional and dynamic camera where if you are lock on to a target no matter where the enemy changes direction the camera will always aligned to the direction you were facing

From my experience with this camera, it's best for one-on-one battles but can be bad with fighting against an entire group.
If the camera locks-on to a flying enemy and it keeps spinning around the field, you'll lose sight of other enemies.

In DMC4, the camera have the bosses centered automatically.
But notice when the boss summons minions (e.g.Agnus summons Gladius), the camera is free and the boss is no longer focused.
This is so that you can turn the camera around to attack the summoned minions.

 

[berto]

I haven't had time to read through all 50 pages of this thread and I know the current discussion is about the lock on, but has the possible plotline for the game been discussed?

Quite a bit. The popular theories, or sometimes just the ones that that one dude pushes on every threat, are constantly shifting as more media is released and people have to doctor their theories to fit the new info.

Is the whole thing going to revolve around going on this mission V tasks them with, only to have them all kind of K.O.'d by this new bad guy and chugged into a nightmare realm where everything seems real but it isn't? Or will they be thrown into an alternative reality, and then everybody else (aside from the MC the gamer is playing as) die one by one, until eventually whoever escaped the new bad guy's torment breaks his jaw and rips out his eye to break his concentration and then all the other characters under the onslaught 'wake up' from their nightmares?
What is the speculation raging at the moment?

...
Is that the premise for your new fanfic.

 

[Stylish Nero]

The only real problem are the far away enemies you need to shoot or Pull when there are other enemies in your path.
This might be the only real time when lock-on is necessary for me but at least it allows you to run while it's active.
I don't recall ever having that problem where my melee hits another enemy.
I made sure to keep tilting the stick towards the enemy I want to attack.
Not a problem, since we all have been tilting the stick all the time to make our character go from one place to another.


From my experience with this camera, it's best for one-on-one battles but can be bad with fighting against an entire group.
If the camera locks-on to a flying enemy and it keeps spinning around the field, you'll lose sight of other enemies.

In DMC4, the camera have the bosses centered automatically.
But notice when the boss summons minions (e.g.Agnus summons Gladius), the camera is free and the boss is no longer focused.
This is so that you can turn the camera around to attack the summoned minions.

I was referring to how lock-on focuses on a target. Basically just give DMC a normal camera like another game these day. This camera was present in BP for DMC4 and I had no issues there.

However, with fast moving flying enemies having no lock-on won't fix the solution since to keep track of said enemy you will need to keep moving the camera and thus will have to keep and if you don't that is one enemy out of your field of vision so you would be in the same situation. With DmC there would be times for some reason my inputs especially with the whip won't register since there was no enemy in the soft lock because said enemy moved out of range. Also losing sight of other enemies to focus on one enemy isn't a really big issue (isn't that how life works we don't have 360 vision lol) especially if they made the game so enemies won't attack you unless they're in your field of vision (which is what DMC5 is doing). There are many workarounds for these systems that both developers and even player can implement for a smoother system. DMC5 is also trying to implement a dynamic camera system that tries to capture the action and adjusts itself based on positioning and what is crucial concerning enemy placement (it won't fit everything on the screen but it will try to prioritize so if you're wailing on one enemy and there are a couple approaching you the camera will automatically zoom itself out to show those enemies) and if you want a normal camera system you can just change it in the settings.

Both systems have their flaws and benefits. So there really is no ideal or perfect system but as players (and even the devs themselves) we can make the best of it and work with and they can give us the tools to work with these limitations. So to say one way of doing something is the future is rather presumptuous especially since lock-on in DMC works far more than it fails.

As for running while lock-on, maybe its me but I never saw major need for it. When locked on I have a lot of options to close the gap such as Stinger, Streak, dashing, teleporting, grappling hook, etc or to immobilize the target if they're too agile so why would I need to option to run up to a locked-on target and if I want to I just run up to them as normal and then lock-on. It is quite easy to work around limitations if you know how to play the system to your benefit. There are benefits to walking slowly on lock such as being able to control your pace during combat and allows you to follow the action easier especially since we are not constantly running around. I really don't see the problem and honestly only ever see you complain about it.

V seems like the type of character that'll take a while to get used to since hes never been in a dmc game before so parts with him could make it more extended unless people have no problem with his style

True but the devs are the ones who made the game so they know how his playstyle works and how to utilize it so it was probably no issue for play tests. Even if he is new to the franchise this is still an average play time and not a pro DMC player runtime.

 

[V's patron]

It would have been better if V/Dante were playable in the demo. You would have gotten a better sense of how V controlled than trying to guess from their description.

Ohh well, we have two months left anyway.

 

[Goldsickle]

However, with fast moving flying enemies having no lock-on won't fix the solution since to keep track of said enemy you will need to keep moving the camera and thus will have to keep and if you don't that is one enemy out of your field of vision so you would be in the same situation. With DmC there would be times for some reason my inputs especially with the whip won't register since there was no enemy in the soft lock because said enemy moved out of range.

My "solution" for the lock on (hard or soft) catching the wrong enemy would be that you manually aim your shots, a la over-the-shoulder + crosshair.

But I think everyone would reject this idea because "over the shoulder perspective does not work in DMC" or something.

 

[Sean Gow]

Talking about targeting and stuff.. don’t know if this has already been mentioned yet or not.

Has anyone noticed that if you try to toggle through locked on enemies with your analog stick pointing in any direction other than centre, the target won’t change? The analog stick has to be head centre or a little bit off centre for it to work.

Next time someone’s playing it, have a little look. It’s weird. I’m sure the other games didn’t do that? We’ll have to see if it’s the same in the new demo in Feb!

 

[DarkSlayer54]

Talking about targeting and stuff.. don’t know if this has already been mentioned yet or not.

Has anyone noticed that if you try to toggle through locked on enemies with your analog stick pointing in any direction other than centre, the target won’t change? The analog stick has to be head centre or a little bit off centre for it to work.

Next time someone’s playing it, have a little look. It’s weird. I’m sure the other games didn’t do that? We’ll have to see if it’s the same in the new demo in Feb!

I hope not. I thought the feature was missing, or it was bound to another button when I tried it out.

 

[Sean Gow]

I hope not. I thought the feature was missing, or it was bound to another button when I tried it out.

Yeah it’s weird, you have to have your analog stick dead centre in order for it to work. I thought it wasn’t a feature anymore, the demos been out ages and I only just figured it out before I posted on here. I really hope it gets fixed in feb, and if not, we definitely need to voice our opinions to get it sorted hahaha

 

[Stylish Nero]

My "solution" for the lock on (hard or soft) catching the wrong enemy would be that you manually aim your shots, a la over-the-shoulder + crosshair.

But I think everyone would reject this idea because "over the shoulder perspective does not work in DMC" or something.