The Fine Line of Change

[TWOxACROSS]

It's up to me to save this thread!

So...did anyone thought that NT really needed to fix the style system and demon dodge. I don't cuz it's a unique DMC game.

Style system...meh.

Demon Dodge, sure. Just to take some emphasis away from it.

 

[Chancey289]

Actually, Playstation All-Stars have a quite deep combat system once you learn it. SSB mechanics are quite good but the depth of it involves mostly around dash cancelling. Just like nightrunner, I prefer Playstation All-Stars.

PS All Stars plays pretty much exactly the same as Smash Bros. It isn't hard to learn and I was able to own just as many people on All Stars because it was all so extremely familiar. The major difference between Smash and PS is how you win. I think it's completely stupid how special moves are the ONLY way to win. Kind of just cancels out skill and replaces it with just luck and it's not cool how you can be beating the hell out of someone the entire time but maybe a careless mistake had you missing your special move by accident. It really seems like all the damage you've done up until that point becomes pointless.

And some specials are freaking extremely broken. Multiple character's level 1 can even be the freaking equivalent to Sonic's final smash in Brawl.

I'm more of a Melee guy though. And the thing is you say Smash Bros. doesn't have depth? HA HA HA. You don't play with guys like us. Not to brag but, my friends and I are the tournament status Smash players. We're pretty damn good. Like REAL GOOD.

 

[VineBigBoss]

It's up to me to save this thread!

So...did anyone thought that NT really needed to fix the style system and demon dodge. I don't cuz it's a unique DMC game.

Being a "unique DMC game" is not an excuse to have such a exploitable move on the game, it were possible to kill some bosses with only 3 hits in DMD using DT+DE before the update. The style system is ok, means nothing at all, it was never meant to be a precise measure of stylishness, although they work better on DMC3 than any other DMC game.

 

[AlchemistFromEden]

Being a "unique DMC game" is not an excuse to have such a exploitable move on the game, it were possible to kill some bosses with only 3 hits in DMD using DT+DE before the update. The style system is ok, means nothing at all, it was never meant to be a precise measure of stylishness, although they work better on DMC3 than any other DMC game.

 

[Terrutas]

Yeah,no. At this point no one expects you to logically tell the difference between a bug and an intentional failure of game design.

Just go back to Youtube, and stay there. People are dumber there so you seem a lot more witty than you actually are.

You have however demonstrated a variety of things.

1. That you have no understanding of reason or logic
2. That you have a hard time differentiating fact from opinion
3. That you are overly aggressive
4. That you might be braindead
5. That you have no standards or taste
6. That you might be seriously braindead

I highly recommend you try this.

 

[Domenic93]

How about him not in the story at all? They did nothing with him and he was basically Dante. They could have maybe figured out a way to map that arm to Dante like maybe his demon power was corrupting him and looking to take control of his body or something I don't know. Just introducing a character like Nero ,which is uninteresting and boring at that, really just seems pointless. They should have done something like Onimusha 3 Demon Siege. Playing as Jean Reno and the samurai dude was actually a different playing experience. Jean Reno had this sweet demon whip and the other dude had 2 swords.

from what I read and the concept art I've seen 4 was going to be very interesting it it wasn't for that guy who decided to make DMC4 try to appeal to women(who already really liked the series), by toning down blood and violence and making it brighter and all that. they did say that (http://thesilentchief.com/2010/07/1...may-cry-4-was-made-to-appeal-to-women-gamers/).

nothing in this game had any impact with anything it did accept maybe when mundus started pulling matter into himself that's it. but for after wards with the other demons and have a better setup they should have made it when the worlds merged that it would be like in onimusha 3 when Gildenstern unleashed the gennma onto the populace, and we saw them getting killed, and them panicking you could feel their fear, and it was set the stage very well for the rest of the game. you don't even have to have them drop from the sky, doing this would show that even if you topple just getting rid of mundus doesn't mean humans have a very good chance of surviving, and would give them something to actually take responsibility for and try to clean up, and really would require a leader who understood what was going on and how to combat the demons.

don't you guys think this is far more effective than just seeing 2 people run away from a rage just running around?

 

[Chancey289]

from what I read and the concept art I've seen 4 was going to be very interesting it it wasn't for that guy who decided to make DMC4 try to appeal to women(who already really liked the series), by toning down blood and violence and making it brighter and all that. they did say that (http://thesilentchief.com/2010/07/1...may-cry-4-was-made-to-appeal-to-women-gamers/).

nothing in this game had any impact with anything it did accept maybe when mundus started pulling matter into himself that's it. but for after wards with the other demons and have a better setup they should have made it when the worlds merged that it would be like in onimusha 3 when Gildenstern unleashed the gennma onto the populace, and we saw them getting killed, and them panicking you could feel their fear, and it was set the stage very well for the rest of the game. you don't even have to have them drop from the sky, doing this would show that even if you topple just getting rid of mundus doesn't mean humans have a very good chance of surviving, and would give them something to actually take responsibility for and try to clean up, and really would require a leader who understood what was going on and how to combat the demons.

don't you guys think this is far more effective than just seeing 2 people run away from a rage just running around?

DMC 4 wanting to appeal to more female gamers?

Represent, whoop!
DMC never saw women beyond what some shut in's hentai and action movie women fantasies are. It's like the people who came up with this stuff never interacted with a female, yet alone other human being in their life. It's like DMC is a collaboration of fanfiction writers that are dudes who never leave their house watching anime and old action movies all day.

Then again, I don't know of anyone who truly finds that impressive, male or female. Maybe because we aren't prepubescent.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Yeah no, at this point no one expects you to logically tell the difference between a bug and an intentional failure of game design.

Come on now. I really don't think that's a bug. It's not intentional, it's more of a way of "letting" the player exploit some of the more harder bosses (on DMD, anyway).

I'll be honest. I think NT was trying to copy that "hard-to-find" exploit and ended up being too obvious with it.

There's such a thing as "hidden" and, "not hidden well enough".

DMC3 and 4 had hidden techniques --

DmC had "we tried".

No need to hold it against them. And there was no "obvious exploit" in Vergil's Downfall (VD fixed a lot of DmC's flaws). Just give it time. If there's a sequel, or a DMC5, then things will go back to normal, even with NT at the helm. You don't have to believe that -- all you can do now is wait.

Addendum:

Here's an exploit in DMC3 (people laughed at me when I said it, but now I can demonstrate how there's "loopholes" everywhere)

Ultimate Tempest... it was there before Demon Dodge. I say this with no snark, I'm just showing you that it's there.

Edit:

For those who don't feel like watching the entire tutorial:

 

[Terrutas]

Come on now. I really don't think that's a bug. It's not intentional, it's more of a way of "letting" the player exploit some of the more harder bosses (on DMD, anyway).

The only reason I have to believe that it would be anywhere near intentional is because it applies universally throughout all the attacks that have more startup frames than active frames.

But I honestly doubt it could be intentional when it's that game breaking.

I didn't mean to come off as a total ass, Alchemist just ****es me off with his nonsensical bullcrap.

 

[Demi-fiend]

The only reason I have to believe that it would be anywhere near intentional is because it applies universally throughout all the attacks that have more startup frames than active frames.

But I honestly doubt it could be intentional when it's that game breaking.

I didn't mean to come off as a total ass, Alchemist just ****es me off with his nonsensical bullcrap.

I know how it is.

But there's also the matter of Meteor spamming on DMC1 DMD. I even managed to get a rather high style rank out of it.

(6:28 for spammage)

Edit:

I'm not saying it's broken, I'm just saying that it just happened to be there. Who knows what the developer's intent was when they were making the game.

 

[Terrutas]

Maybe. But think about it, would you as a developer want to break your own game? I wouldn't.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Maybe. But think about it, would you as a developer want to break your own game? I wouldn't.

That was a flaw. Not the "broken" mechanic, but the fact that they didn't think about balance issues. Lack pf proper planning was the problem, not the result.

They had the result they wanted, the only difference being that they went slightly overboard with it (I say "slightly" because if you add even a quarter-power of a regular hit, and if you give the player "permission" to spam, then the results would obviously be disastrous for those looking for a challenge (but only for those types of players, in my opinion).

 

[Terrutas]

That was a flaw. Not the "broken" mechanic, but the fact that they didn't think about balance issues. Lack pf proper planning was the problem, not the result.

Wait are we talking about NT? Because I know they completely failed at game balance.

They had the result they wanted, the only difference being that they went slightly overboard with it (I say "slightly" because if you add even a quarter-power of a regular hit, and if you give the player "permission" to spam, then the results would obviously be disastrous for those looking for a challenge (but only for those types of players, in my opinion).

No, because if you made Demon Dodge have a smaller frame window, making it actually hard to pull off, then spamming it would be quite impossible unless you've went through a lot of practice which at that point, you deserve it since you worked hard.
Point is, if they made it skill based then the damage wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Wait are we talking about NT? Because I know they completely failed at game balance.

Yeah, we are. I said that the balance itself was the problem, but only due to lack of planning.

No, because if you made Demon Dodge have a smaller frame window, making it actually hard to pull off, then spamming it would be quite impossible unless you've went through a lot of practice which at that point, you deserve it since you worked hard.
Point is, if they made it skill based then the damage wouldn't be a problem.

Once again, they didn't think about making the window smaller -- another thing, I heard that they had made it smaller in a PC patch -- not to mention that in VD, there is no demon dodge, making "perfect evades" slightly more skill-based.

All of this goes back to not thinking and planning ahead for the sake of challenge. It wasn't a priority to them (not at the time, anyway), so they never considered it an issue.

However, all this is in the past. VD was more challenging, and if there's a future DmC or DMC game, then it'll be harder. A lot harder. That much is almost guaranteed at this point.

Edit:

And balance will be a priority this time around, because they'll pay more attention and have better planning overall due to their learning from their past mistakes.

Well, I need to get going. I'll see ya later.

 

[Chancey289]

You can't really spam the demon dodge because he still goes through the entire animation of doing that roll and there is still that window to get hit as he's trying to stand back up straight. Just hitting that roll option over and over again will only have you dodging at least one attack because other enemies are still attacking you and not at the same time.

 

[Demi-fiend]

demon snip

Good point. Note however, that they still didn't have it in VD. I'm not saying it shouldn't be there, I'm just saying that there was no need for two types of dodges. I'm glad Vergil didn't have it.

And like I said before, these issues will be fixed in the sequel or if they go back to the original series. It's almost a non-issue at this point.

Well, I'm off.

 

[Chancey289]

If we want to talk about exploitation and broken mechanics, look to Metal Gear Rising. Just pushing the stick in the direction of an enemy and repeatedly hitting the attack button will make you invincible. They mapped the block on the movement and hitting the attack button. I promise you you will NEVER get hurt. THAT is the prime example of a broken mechanic. And I seriously thought P* wouldn't make a mistake like that. I might not like all of their games but hack n slash gameplay is supposed to be their specialty. What happened here?

 

[Demi-fiend]

What happened here?

Bad planning. I admit that I was also surprised as well. In my opinion, neither DmC nor MGR are completely innocent in all this. I will say however, that at least NT tried to fix some of those issues in the PC version patches and in VD.

Edit:

Both franchises however, will be fixed in their respective sequels. It's a shame that players have to wait until then, but that's life.

Besides, I heard that Diablo 3 players were being used all this time to "beta-test" (yes really) on the PC so that Blizzard could then port it to PS4 with minimal problems.

I'll say that again. The retail version was just one big "beta-test". The players were completely screwed over. It makes sense when you think about it that way.

So yeah, it could have been worse.

Bayonetta also had framerate problems on the PS3. It actually needed to be patched as well.

It's a lack of foresight, that's what this all is. You miss out on one little detail, and it all comes crashing down later. This is why most Zelda games take so long to make. They go over almost everything with a fine-tooth comb.

 

[CheeseKao]

This is why most Zelda games take so long to make. They go over almost everything with a fine-tooth comb.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. http://www.gamewinners.com/n64/ZeldaOcarinaTimeGlitches.htm

 

[Demi-fiend]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. http://www.gamewinners.com/n64/ZeldaOcarinaTimeGlitches.htm

Well, that kind of goes hand-in-hand with the point I'm trying to make.

It took 8 years for Z64 to be made. In those eight years, not even Nintendo could find all the bugs out there within the code.

Same thing with TP and SS. Lots of time, lots of playtesting, but in the end, you'll still find bugs in those games.

All you can do is prevent as many glitches as you can. In the end however, you can't prevent them all.