DmC "Deserved Better"

[Gel]

Drinking is absurdly socially accepted in Japan, to the point where you are basically required to go out drinking with your coworkers after a hard day. The peer pressure is strong and to not drink makes you an outcast.

Until the point of passing out?Well, that's sad, but taking into account "what you seem to be is more important than what you really are" japanese kind of mantra, it shouldn't surprise me.

 

[Director Bison]

So we have covered that fans could have handled their reactions better and Capcom could have made better decisions with the franchise, how exactly could NT have been better?

personally i think there are two things Ninja Theory should have done

1 . stuck with the Dante from the TGS trailer
that Dante look far more vicious and damaged. he looks like the outcome of what being tortured by Demons would be
to me that looked like a far more interesting character that i think would have lead to a better story
but due to the massive back lash it's understandable why they changed him

2 . they should have been more honest about why they were making the reboot
we now know that Capcom basically came up to Ninja Theory and said "Make a Devil May Cry game but it can't be anything like our Devil May Cry .we want it to be so different it shocks us"

now Maybe Capcom wouldn't let them
but if Ninja Theory said sooner that "Capcom didn't want us to continue the original story they wanted us to make our own version" then i think the backlash could have been lessened
instead we got the infamous "Dante isn't cool anymore" Quote

a side from that i don't think Ninja Theory did that much wrong they made the game they were told to make

 

[berto]

ATTENTION: UNBRIDLED AND SENSELESS RANT INCOMING

I've had this rant brewing for an extremely long time, but given the discussion, I feel it's relevant to finally commit to text. It's not about the franchise's progression, not about Capcom, not even about the individual games themselves...as I've serviced myself a sizable piece about the thing, or specifically the one game, responsible for the series' most serious maladies...

Except for a few points on the behavior of the fan bases and infantile behavior in general I couldn't agree less. There are too many point to actually debate but suffice to say I don't agree with a lot of the arguments been made here regarding the actual concept of the games, specifically regarding DMC3 and how it was the biggest shift.

Hmm, funny is that smoking isn't cool but being a functional drunk is...In that time Kamiya didn't smoke but drank a lot, so if Dante was what Kamiya wanted to be in fantasy world, it's natural they share some habits.

He got drunk once in the novel, which by by all counts means he got uber s***faced a total of one time in three novels, 4 games, 2 manga, one anime, and a few cameos, that's not a functional drunk, that's not even a drunk at all. I've gotten more plastered than that in one year, and so have most adults. Adults drink yet most of us aren't drunks, that's like calling a man who hit his chins on the coffee table once or twice accident prone. Actually, most of the time he's at bars he's eating, not drinking, which shows terrible taste in food because bar food isn't that good, at least not from what I've read about that bar.

As for Kamiya drinking, yeah, that comes with been a Japanese industry man.

Sorry in advance for the long post.

Eh, I don't think dmc3 was as big of a departure as Wolf is making out, i should say I can't comment on 2 as I only played it for about 30 mins before disliking it.(maybe I should give it another shot sometime).

3 showed us a more younger and stubborn dante so his more flashy, I suppose?. personality made more sense. The enemy and area design were certainly less scary then 1...

I don't entirely agree with you either but I certainly agree with you much more than with the Wolf of DMC dot ORG. Your points of view are more congruent with mine, though still somewhat varied.

 

[Gel]

He got drunk once in the novel, which by by all counts means he got uber s***faced a total of one time in three novels, 4 games, 2 manga, one anime, and a few cameos, that's not a functional drunk, that's not even a drunk at all. I've gotten more plastered than that in one year, and so have most adults. Adults drink yet most of us aren't drunks, that's like calling a man who hit his chins on the coffee table once or twice accident prone. Actually, most of the time he's at bars he's eating, not drinking, which shows terrible taste in food because bar food isn't that good, at least not from what I've read about that bar.

@berto , sorry, but here I've to disagree with you:
Once he is shown to be out of himself in the DMC1 novel, but in the novel he is fighting or consuming alcohol, at the point of being starving but the only thing he begs Nell is for alcohol, he is always seeing consuming alcohol or having a lot of bottles of alcoholic drinks scattered in his office's floor.Grue tells him to be careful with his liver because of his habit and we even know he seems to have a preference for gin, even if he does other drinks..the only time I remember not seeing one of these bottles was in DMC2. Even in Monster Hunter 4 this is lampshaded: he is shown to be asleep in his desk , with a glass in his hand, when Lady arrives and wakes him. He drinks too much.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think it's what they like to call an "orgy of evidence," where he's normally never seen drinking, but by God do the multitudes of bottles imply something more than a "social drinker."

 

[berto]

Once he is shown to be out of himself in the DMC1 novel, but in the novel he is fighting or consuming alcohol, at the point of being starving but the only thing he begs Nell is for alcohol,

What? He got a sandwich and milk, not a whiskey and vodka chocolates. I don't remember that going down like that, at all. By chance, you page number? I don't really want to read the whole thing again just verify this.

I think it's what they like to call an "orgy of evidence," where he's normally never seen drinking, but by God do the multitudes of bottles imply something more than a "social drinker."

he is always seeing consuming alcohol or having a lot of bottles of alcoholic drinks scattered in his office's floor

:laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

He's a slob, not an alcoholic, believe me, I've known alcoholics, a few bottles, and those are a few, scattered around the office are nothing compared to what an alcoholic would have. I've known alcoholics, if that few of bottles makes you think that's excessive a real alcoholic's bags of empty bottles will leave you wondering how they're still alive. He's got more demons mounted on the wall than bottles on the floor, that's not really solid evidence.

And what do you mean he's always seen drinking. You mean in the games and the anime or is it characters in the novel that see him drinking?

 

[Triggerpigking]

personally i think there are two things Ninja Theory should have done

1 . stuck with the Dante from the TGS trailer
that Dante look far more vicious and damaged. he looks like the outcome of what being tortured by Demons would be
to me that looked like a far more interesting character that i think would have lead to a better story
but due to the massive back lash it's understandable why they changed him

After playing the game yeah, considering his mental and physical state in the beggining it would've fit him more, perhpas they could've cleaned him up a bit as the game went forward?.

On ninja theory's end i'm honestly not sure what they needed to improve past the story and writing, the premise and ideas are great but most(not all) of the dialogue and jokes fall flat, I also think both Kat and Mundus were very boring characters(though i've always though mundus was one of the most boring parts of dmc), Vergil is alright..but he needed another game to flesh him out which is clearly what they were planning.

As for gameplay well it's still not up to par with the originals in terms of insane combos and the like and from what i saw of the original version it was waaay to easy, lack of lock on, and there's them annoying demon/angel only enemies which kill combos. but they've fixed a lot of it in the definite version, it's defineitly heads above most action games on the market.

Overal yeah as you said Ninja theory themselves did what they were supposed to do which was pretty much make a new game with the dmc name and go crazy with their own ideas.

On the topic of dante drinking, I have'nt read the novels so I can't comment directly on it but are'nt the novels for dmc1 no longer canon?, i'd never really think how he's portayed in them to matter much anyway, a novel or side series is almost always secondary canon to the main series and can be rewrote, he defineitly did'nt give off the impression of a heavy drinker or drunk in the original game though. Plus even if he was at one point a drunk, we've seen very little of dante's actual life and the series jumps around his timeline like a bunny on caffiene, it's possible he could've been an alcoholic at some point(hell given what happens to vergil at the end of 3 there's justifiable story reasons).

 

[Gel]

What? He got a sandwich and milk, not a whiskey and vodka chocolates. I don't remember that going down like that, at all. By chance, you page number? I don't really want to read the whole thing again just verify this.

Hmm, in page 150 he is eating a sandwich Nell gave him, while telling her how disgusting it is. I see no milk mentioned, but I just read that briefly. But I've the idea there is an page where he begs her for alcohol.I've to check it out.

Now some pages you got Dante drinking something alcoholic :
Page- fact:

• 20- He is drinking whisky
• 21-" I only do alcohol.Do you like destroying your lungs?"-Dante.Grue answers"About as much as you like to destroy your liver"( here Dante confirms he does not smoke)
• 31-( just an apart: Enzo is described as a fat shorty man.manga is not the first time Enzo is shown to look that way.Dante is referred to be silver haired)
• 33-Dante orders:"Bobby!Gin and tonic!Make it strong!"
• 36- He is drinking once again with Grue
• ( I jump pages ahead, but it seems he is drinking something page yes, page no).
  
• 102- Dante and Vergil as a dream team- they are unstoppable and the best of the best and Dante drinks again
• 103- Dante is once again consuming gin

Good Lord! I gave up on counting how much times he is drinking...

He is seen drinking in Anime: beer , wine and something yellow in different occasions,. In game no, but he has a huge number of bottles scattered everywhere.

 

[LordOfDarkness]

I'm not sure how we got onto the subject of Dante being a drunk, but I'm pretty sure it's off-topic. Could we please try to stick to the point. Thanks.

 

[peppycat]

Doesn't DmC take place in a parallel universe, anyway? I saw that Ninja Theory said that it did in the DENGEKI PLAYSTATION magazine...

 

[berto]

Hmm, in page 150 he is eating a sandwich Nell gave him, while telling her how disgusting it is. I see no milk mentioned, but I just read that briefly. But I've the idea there is an page where he begs her for alcohol.I've to check it out.

Now some pages you got Dante drinking something alcoholic :
Page- fact:

• 20- He is drinking whisky
• 21-" I only do alcohol.Do you like destroying your lungs?"-Dante.Grue answers"About as much as you like to destroy your liver"( here Dante confirms he does not smoke)
• 31-( just an apart: Enzo is described as a fat shorty man.manga is not the first time Enzo is shown to look that way.Dante is referred to be silver haired)
• 33-Dante orders:"Bobby!Gin and tonic!Make it strong!"
• 36- He is drinking once again with Grue
• ( I jump pages ahead, but it seems he is drinking something page yes, page no).
  
• 102- Dante and Vergil as a dream team- they are unstoppable and the best of the best and Dante drinks again
• 103- Dante is once again consuming gin

Good Lord! I gave up on counting how much times he is drinking...

He is seen drinking in Anime: beer , wine and something yellow in different occasions,. In game no, but he has a huge number of bottles scattered everywhere.

We really are getting way off topic. I'll conclude by saying that except for the sequence where he's drunk there is still no evidence of alcoholism. He's drinking in those scenes, not drunk, that's not that excessive, nor rare, for a man his age, specially for a man his age with no family.

I could've sworn she gave him milk with that sandwich... Oh, well, no big deal.

 

[V's patron]

@Director Bison ,

With 1 I think maybe they could have included an older Dante narrating the adventures of his younger self and revisiting Limbo City. I think the problem with Tgs10 was it was hard to connect that take with the Classic Dante so maybe connecting them more thoroughly in a trailer might better help sell people on the idea.

With 2 didn't they do say that tho? because i think they did say that they wanted to be different. NT even said capcom wanted them to go more different than what they originally did.

 

[Director Bison]

With 2 didn't they do say that tho? because i think they did say that they wanted to be different. NT even said capcom wanted them to go more different than what they originally did.

they may have comented about being different
but i think the quote that Capcom wanted to be shocked by new Dante that is important
it shows that Capcom were the ones that pushed the reboot not NT

i only heard NT say "Capcom wanted us to shock them" after the game came out
but i'm not sure if they said it before the game came out

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Doesn't DmC take place in a parallel universe, anyway? I saw that Ninja Theory said that it did in the DENGEKI PLAYSTATION magazine...

Tameem Antoniades confirmed it about a year after the game was first announced, at some game convention. Can't quite remember which one. It's strange when people still think it was some sort of retcon >.<

 

[Director Bison]

Tameem Antoniades confirmed it about a year after the game was first announced, at some game convention. Can't quite remember which one. It's strange when people still think it was some sort of retcon >.<

i'v seen so many people still think it's a prequel

and it's annoying cus all you have to do is watch the first 30 seconds of DMC 1 to know it's impossible

 

[TWOxACROSS]

i'v seen so many people still think it's a prequel

and it's annoying cus all you have to do is watch the first 30 seconds of DMC 1 to know it's impossible

Which is just so weird, right? Everyone goes apeshit saying how "It's nothing like the others! They ruined the universe!" when like...if it's so different, isn't the logical conclusion that it's, y'know...not the same universe?

 

[Judge]

interesting, I did'nt know it was the best selling. Which, regardless of dmc4's actual quality is all a company would really think about.
The reason for even putting the series on ice is baffling, and the longer they've waited the less well known the series has gotten.

for some reason a few years ago Capcom really did just come to the conclusion that a bunch of series either needed to be rebooted or had to go in different directions, resident evil was selling brilliantly but 5 began to move that series in a different route, Megaman always sold great but they suddently decided no one wanted the series(and also at one point tried to reboot it as an admittedly neat looking but not megaman looking first person shooter) and of course dmc4 sells tons and they decide to put it on ice for years, even when shown proof these series are still wanted such as mighty no 9 or how much the resident evil remakes are selling, they still keep trying to push it in another direction.

While I can't speak for every Capcom game, the Capcom games I know about have experienced significant change or rennovation during their time.

Take Resident Evil; your right Resident Evil was selling brilliantly after Resident Evil 1, 2 and 3, and even Code Veronica was considered a good game. Capcom decided to go in a completely different direction with Resident Evil 4, and ended up developing what I would consider is the best or one of the best games in Capcom's history.

Reisdent Evil 4 was a reboot for the series, and its an amazing game, it stands as one of the finest games ever made. Yet there was nothing wrong with Resident Evil 2 and 3. Resident Evil 2 was the best game of it genre when it came out, even with that style stil intact, they still rebooted with Resident Evil 4 and achieved what they achieved.

The same story with Devil May Cry 4. DMC4 isn't really a sequel to the previous games. Its a different direction althougether. The game features a new main character, Nero, and features his girlfriend Kyrie. In what is a departure from the previous scripts of the previous games. The game itself says goodbye to Dante, and passes the torch onto Nero by the end. Thats how DMC4 was a departure from the previous games. Even the style was different, from the previous games. Where Dante was a bit more comical and less serious that previous games.

DmC is only part of a long line of reboots and directional changes that Capcom have made in the past. DMC4's sales were important, yet so was some of the negative feedback they recieved from the game.

 

[AgentRedgrave]

Which is just so weird, right? Everyone goes apeshit saying how "It's nothing like the others! They ruined the universe!" when like...if it's so different, isn't the logical conclusion that it's, y'know...not the same universe?

Right, Death Battle released a vid about Dante for the Dante vs Bayonetta DB, Wiz says "born of the unholy union of a demon father and human mother"
and I saw a comment that said "Wait, I thought Dante's mom was an angel, not human"

 

[Triggerpigking]

While I can't speak for every Capcom game, the Capcom games I know about have experienced significant change or rennovation during their time.

Take Resident Evil; your right Resident Evil was selling brilliantly after Resident Evil 1, 2 and 3, and even Code Veronica was considered a good game. Capcom decided to go in a completely different direction with Resident Evil 4, and ended up developing what I would consider is the best or one of the best games in Capcom's history.

Reisdent Evil 4 was a reboot for the series, and its an amazing game, it stands as one of the finest games ever made. Yet there was nothing wrong with Resident Evil 2 and 3. Resident Evil 2 was the best game of it genre when it came out, even with that style stil intact, they still rebooted with Resident Evil 4 and achieved what they achieved.

The same story with Devil May Cry 4. DMC4 isn't really a sequel to the previous games. Its a different direction althougether. The game features a new main character, Nero, and features his girlfriend Kyrie. In what is a departure from the previous scripts of the previous games. The game itself says goodbye to Dante, and passes the torch onto Nero by the end. Thats how DMC4 was a departure from the previous games. Even the style was different, from the previous games. Where Dante was a bit more comical and less serious that previous games.

DmC is only part of a long line of reboots and directional changes that Capcom have made in the past. DMC4's sales were important, yet so was some of the negative feedback they recieved from the game.

You're right actually, thinking about it they do that a lot.(does'nt explain leaving the series dead for so long, or killing megaman though xD)

Resident evil 4 is defineitly one of the best games ever made(i've actually played it over 10 times XD).
I feel in that games case it managed to still capture the essence of the original series while heavily changing up the camera angle and gamplay, it's defineitly a more extreme case of change for a series but i'd still say that it had similiarities. I still had to scrounge around for ammo, the enviorment were still creepy and the breifcase function actually enhanced the management part imo, though 4 came out when I was 10 so I do have a hard time imagining it as anything other then a resident evil game now.
Also that might've been a case where they changed the core gameplay to stay relevant, most games with tank controls where being phased out, even silent hill's last game with tank controls was out by that point.
Resident evil 5 came along and changed pretty much everything for the series, the inventory management was'nt as good and the creepyness factor was gone completely, I think that's when people really started to complain.

As for DMC4, they clearly were trying to move it in a different direction or atleast experiment, however they still did keep Dante in the game and the previous story and gameplay, Nero is disliked enough as it is, i'm sure if dmc5 had instead been only about him people would've been fuming about it, maybe almost as much as DmC.
Dante was defineitly more comedic in that game but really compared to the rest nothing was personally at stake for him, his only reason for even being there was that he needed something to occupy himself and then through chance it turns out these guys have his bro's sword XD.

And a big part of the negative feedback for dmc4 was Nero and his prominence over Dante in the game, I don't understand why they would then think pushing it even further from the original series would help.
As I said in one of my previous posts, it's more just how much they changed it, dmc4 still had the type of humour, the music, the gameplay and of course dante and his personality. I feel like DmC pushed everything away from the originals, story, gameplay, music...

Experimentation is important for a games series however I think there's a point where a company is better off just making a new I.P.

like resident evil 4 I think another good example of this extreme experimentation would be metroid prime, it changed the series core gameplay over to first person but it kept the atmosphere and design close to the series roots, just adapted it to another type of gameplay.
Likewise, the new paper mario games(i'm a big fan of them and they just announced a new one that looks terrible) is an example of pushing it too far, the series thrived on it's comedy and storytelling but they've erased all that away in favour of a level system and no story.

 

[Gel]

As for DMC4, they clearly were trying to move it in a different direction or atleast experiment, however they still did keep Dante in the game and the previous story and gameplay, Nero is disliked enough as it is, i'm sure if dmc5 had instead been only about him people would've been fuming about it, maybe almost as much as DmC.
Dante was defineitly more comedic in that game but really compared to the rest nothing was personally at stake for him, his only reason for even being there was that he needed something to occupy himself and then through chance it turns out these guys have his bro's sword XD.

And a big part of the negative feedback for dmc4 was Nero and his prominence over Dante in the game, I don't understand why they would then think pushing it even further from the original series would help.

This is true. what I gathered from DMC community and individual people was that DMC4 was now too much Final Fantasy, people weren't ready to have Dante replaced by a new guy, the new (more) romantic tone of the script, Nero himself and his controversial origins ( which fans saw as a form of making fanbase accept him no matter what).
DMC4 sell well because fanbase was delighted with DMC3; after DMC4 release, fanbase dispersed and disappeared, opening space for newcomers.If it was today DMC4 wouldn't probably sell so much.
I don't if Capcom has a certain reluctance in using Dante again, but I'm wondering how they can manage using Nero as a central piece if now he even has people wanting him dead and gone.