Crossing the line. Yay or Nay?

[Meg]

There has to be a reason for it. Just throwing excessive violence in for the sake of "shock value" is pointless and screams of the developer wanting some fifteen minutes of fame. The OP sounds rather sick to be honest. Murder isn't exciting enough; let's thrown in rape and torture.

I would like to point out that any game that contains rape, sexual assault, or any other form of sexual violence better come with a massive trigger warning. The ESRB rating can to list sexual violence, so long as it's on the box somewhere. Many of you might think that rape can be easily thrown into a game, but many (and I mean many) rape survivors now suffer from PTSD or something similar. Putting that kind of thing in a game could result in them having flashbacks, panic attacks, etc.

There is a reason why such sensitive subjects are tipped toed around in media. It's not about being "soft" or not strong enough to handle it. It's about not wanting to vividly relive the most graphic and painful part(s) of your lives.
That's not to say that games can't include such things. But there better be a damn good story reason for why it is there. And it better be done tastefully.

 

[Meg]

So it's okay when there's a point to it but not okay if the storyline doesn't justify it ?

I'm not advocating for censorship. Game developers can throw in whatever they want because it is their right to do so. However, if said developers don't want to hurt and offend a lot of people, or make themselves look disgusting, they better have a good reason for putting it in there. Because what I honestly don't understand, is why would someone put it rape and torture scenes just for the hell of it? That makes it sound like some people just need to get a sick fix.

 

[Meg]

@Meg
I have no idea why other then to grab attention.
I totally agree however with titles today it seems like storylines are used as the excuse to bring up controversial topics.
Don't you find it strange that there's more titles these days weaving in controversial topics in their storylines?
Honestly i don't mind controversial topics TO A POINT, but using a storyline to justify it is kinda week to me.

Oh no, sorry. Let me be more clear. When I say a "good reason," I don't mean conveniently create a story where you can easily fit those sorts of scenes into. What I mean is-

Spec-Ops: The Line has some pretty crazy stuff happen in it. There's some really disturbing scenes, but they serve a real purpose. The game's purpose of existing is to condemn games like Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, and Battlefield for how much they glorify war. The disturbing scenes are integral to the game's plot and very purpose for existing.

That's what I mean. You're absolutely right that stories shouldn't be used as an excuse. I'm saying that if extremely graphic stuff like rape and torture are going to be in a game, it should be because the story is making a point that can't be made without it.

 

[Meg]

@Meg
Oh no i understand.


I agree but excluding MetalGearSolid & other military type titles, how would we know.
How we know if characters could've been portrayed the same without said controversial topic ?

Assuming how the event took place, telling the story of the character's past instead of actually showing the details, wouldn't that be enough?

I agree. I personally don't want to see an increase in such graphic content. I think the best way for developers to figure that out is simply ask themselves if the story/character can remain the same without it. Is the graphic scene(s) that integral to the plot that the whole game would fall apart without it (like Spec-Ops and MGS5), or not? If not, then maybe reconsider using the scene.

 

[Meg]

@VampireWicked

That's a really good question.

I haven't played the game, but it sounds like the developers were justified. From what I understand, you play as a really powerful being and it can be easy to get lost in that power fancy. It sounds like the developers put that scene in to remind players of who they are playing as. On a side note, I don't see how a vampire biting a woman is rape-y. She sounds like a Tumblr feminist.

I think the conversation does change if the target is a supernatural monster or something. God of War has a lot of that stuff, and while I'm not a fan, I don't think it's the same as some of the other things we've talked about. There's a huge difference between dismembering a monster (of some sort) that's trying to kill you and raping/torturing/dismembering a helpless person.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

it won't be entertaining, but it will make one hell of an impact, drop jaws and open eyes.

The thing here is that the impact should have a direct correlation to the entertainment value of the piece. Like you say, if a character we are to sympathize with has been raped and revenge against their aggressors is their motivation, that could possibly serve to deepen the bond between the audience and the character.

However, at the same time, it's entirely possible to show something like that, which has the impact desired for empathy, without it being brutal. After a certain point, it stops becoming about the impact, and more about just showing something to drop jaws and widen eyes. I'd say, a scene that doesn't show the rape as brutal, but as something indecent, unwanted, and obstructed puts us in the point-of-view of our character, the victim. They don't want it to be happening, they don't want to see it, and the scene is shot in a way that emphasizes that. The moment you show a rape scene with steady cam, wide shots of a nude body, and dragging it out where there is no actual value - it stops being about the victim, either of the characters, or even about the scene's narrative value; it just turns into something shocking for the sake of shocking.

What would a rape scene in the The Last of Us truly give to the audience? One more piece of incidental evidence that the world sucks sweaty yeti taint? There's plenty of evidence of that, and there's already a discussion between bandits you can hear where they talk about a woman they had in captivity they were abusing, until she tried to escape and was shot. That's about enough needed.

The point of shocking someone in a story is for memorable effect, it has reason, and it serves the narrative in some way, helping the audience to understand or empathize with a character, or paint a specific element of the setting. Shocking the audience, however, isn't simply done with violence or gore, it's through awe and wonderment. The grand and majestic scale of things in Lord of the Rings' shocks the audience, and they remember places and incredible events because of it, it serves the narrative because it makes an impression. That in turn, makes it entertaining.

Wanting shocking violence of the sake of it is a little juvenile, like a child cussing because their parents aren't around. It serves very little purpose to anything, and is desired and done simply because it's something shied away from or restricted.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

Personally, in terms of gaming, I just want games that don't HAVE to be art. I mean, movies are art, cartoons are art, they still don't have to be ridiculously emotional. The only non-nintendo games I've seen get this right, are overshadowed by the games that get it completely wrong
Give me some gameplay, stop trying to make me have feels, don't force your worldbuilding. GIVE ME AN OPTION TO SKIP THE DAMN CUTSCENES!
Keep in mind, I can go pick up TF2 and get straight to the game right away without having to listen to this guy's monolog about his dead wife for 20 minutes straight.
And I'm not talking like Phoenix Wright or a visual novel where the story is part of the gameplay.
I'm talking action/shooters/stealth/RP games that think I give a **** about the parts of the game where I can't play

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Personally, in terms of gaming, I just want games that don't HAVE to be art.

I think Kojima said it best with "Video games themselves are not art, but certain games are art," much in the same way that certain movies aren't art. Like for instance, Shadow of the Colossus is very much a work of art with how it's crafted. Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, though? Not so much, it's just a game to play.

 

[The Final Offer]

Whether a game is art or not, depends on the person perceiving the game.

Whether the lewd scenes are appropriate or not, depends on the setting. There are alot of games you can expect horrific scenes from and you know that the moment immersion takes place. You just hope that it isn't your character or anyone you'd grow attached to.

When it comes to things that AREN'T HUMAN being dismembered, disemboweled, or both; the bigger picture is that naturally humans don't feel anything when it comes to life outside of the natural order. That's why the word alien is thrown about in games today. They will never be human and thus, what relativity is there? You know it's not real because you haven't seen an alien in your life.

Any fictional being is just that, fictional. There are alot of stories out there that go into detail with those who are IMO "foolish enough" to try and save what genetics proved couldn't be saved. Usually, they get the sharp end of the blade and that teaches people a lesson about outer species sympathy. You wouldn't sit in a room with a bear, tiger, and an wolf pack for some therapy would you? No! Why? Because you know they're unpredictable and unreasonable.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

When it comes to things that AREN'T HUMAN being dismembered, disemboweled, or both; the bigger picture is that naturally humans don't feel anything when it comes to life outside of the natural order.

Interestingly, I recently watched a movie with my girlfriend that I remembered from my childhood - Short Circuit 2. It was about a military robot that had been struck by lightning and basically ended up with a mind of its own. The second movie left a bigger impression on me, and it took a page from the "naive guy in the big city" playbook. Johnny 5 (the robot, obviously), comes to help a friend from the first movie in New York City manufacture toys, but because he loves to learn, he wanders off and makes friends in the city, some of which who essentially trick him into stealing some diamonds. Once his "friends" have the diamonds, they actually go about attempting to kill Johnny 5, because they feel he's nothing more than a robot, and won't be missed.

I don't know why, but that scene was one of the most impactful things I've ever seen. I know it's a robot, but they spend the entire movie making Johnny 5 such a sympathetic and likable character. Watching him plead for his life as he's getting smashed up was so sad, it was sort of chilling. It's also really interesting because if Johnny 5 was a flesh and blood human, it would have been very different, it might have been shot differently. It would have been much more brutal and bloody if he were. It's interesting that it showed the brutality of Johnny 5's assault, but without any gore, the violence shines through in a different way. The impact of the violence is shown much more in the actions, the brutality taken against Johnny 5, and not in displaying gore to drive the point of it.

I always felt that was such an impactful scene, or really just group of scenes, since the one right after it is him in an alleyway, all destroyed, writing short sentences on a wall with chalk because his voice system was damage. Watching him slowly writing out "need help" and "dying" to his friend was...just...:'(

Then, it also makes you feel so much better when he gets mostly fixed up, and goes out for retribution on the "friends" who tried to kill him, even while he's still technically dying. Watching him nearly die in such an impactful way made giving his assailants their comeuppance all the more satisfying to watch

It's really silly to talk like that about a movie from 1988 starring a robot, but...holy sh!t, Johnny 5 was a better character than what some actors portray.

 

[The Final Offer]

Interestingly, I recently watched a movie with my girlfriend that I remembered from my childhood - Short Circuit 2. It was about a military robot that had been struck by lightning and basically ended up with a mind of its own. The second movie left a bigger impression on me, and it took a page from the "naive guy in the big city" playbook. Johnny 5 (the robot, obviously), comes to help a friend from the first movie in New York City manufacture toys, but because he loves to learn, he wanders off and makes friends in the city, some of which who essentially trick him into stealing some diamonds. Once his "friends" have the diamonds, they actually go about attempting to kill Johnny 5, because they feel he's nothing more than a robot, and won't be missed.

I don't know why, but that scene was one of the most impactful things I've ever seen. I know it's a robot, but they spend the entire movie making Johnny 5 such a sympathetic and likable character. Watching him plead for his life as he's getting smashed up was so sad, it was sort of chilling. It's also really interesting because if Johnny 5 was a flesh and blood human, it would have been very different, it might have been shot differently. It would have been much more brutal and bloody if he were. It's interesting that it showed the brutality of Johnny 5's assault, but without any gore, the violence shines through in a different way. The impact of the violence is shown much more in the actions, the brutality taken against Johnny 5, and not in displaying gore to drive the point of it.

I always felt that was such an impactful scene, or really just group of scenes, since the one right after it is him in an alleyway, all destroyed, writing short sentences on a wall with chalk because his voice system was damage. Watching him slowly writing out "need help" and "dying" to his friend was...just...:'(

Then, it also makes you feel so much better when he gets mostly fixed up, and goes out for retribution on the "friends" who tried to kill him, even while he's still technically dying. Watching him nearly die in such an impactful way made giving his assailants their comeuppance all the more satisfying to watch

It's really silly to talk like that about a movie from 1988 starring a robot, but...holy sh!t, Johnny 5 was a better character than what some actors portray.

 

[Meg]

@VampireWicked The difference is that one of them is an enemy trying to kill you and one of them is an innocent bystander. It's a simple self defense vs. being evil thing. Whether or not the target is human has nothing to do with it. It's a matter of are they trying to kill you.

 

[LordOfDarkness]

I know that video games already get blamed for being an apparent 'cause' for different types of violence. My point was that if that is already the case and we hear about it now, how much more exaggerated would it come to be if you increased the extremities of video game violence etc

 

[ROCKMAN X]

If gaming can deliver stuff like that then game stories might actually stop being so boring and predictable and could even make gameplay better.

I think its safe to say that violence in video games is as realistic&gruesome as it can get,its just that developers shy away from taking the artistic liberty to expand their conventional storytelling&gameplay,in other words we need more games like silent hill 2! not typical generic sci-fi shooters with story as deep&new as a rat's follicle.

We're just kind of so sensitized to mindless violence that only thing which can shock us is interactive torture scenes and some other excessive forms of violence.

What's wrong with that.

Its because it will just be a wasted potential,R-rated content thrown in as a gimmick would just be pointless.

Developers better put their efforts into utilizing that R-rated content to progress the story Or else we'll just end up pointless garbage like this :-

YET this is the same gaming industry that can't give female characters the main role out of some unproven fear.

Well to be honest.. gaming is just sexist&racist to both sexes men are just your typical steroid bound generic hunks.

. i can't blame the japanese to distance themselves from west they're so blatantly racist and content with it.

 

[Chancey289]

Duke Nukem Forever was very juvenile and tried too hard with some things that also come up as just rather offensive.

You pick up a pack of cigs and it has a guy dressed in a gimp outfit and it's labeled F@gs.

Also I remember a scene where these chicks are getting held captive by aliens and are practically getting raped and she's like, "Duke, what's going on?" He then just responds "Well, it looks like you're f#cked." Like, wtf dude? This isn't the cheese I remembered.

 

[The Final Offer]

This entire thread is about OP playing South Park Stick of Truth and wanting more of that bs.

 

[xMobilemux]

This entire thread is about OP playing South Park Stick of Truth and wanting more of that bs.

I haven't played that South Park game and I don't even like South Park.

The thing is, games today aren't getting any better, art or no, story focused or no, they're all predictable and just boring.
Last of Us was meant to deliver an intense survival gameplay experience with a great dark story, but the gameplay part was a flat out lie and the story was predictable, never once did I doubt that Joel and Ellie would walk off into the sunset happily ever after and the violence was so safe I can't believe people consider it extreme.
GTA5 was pretty much boring and I expected another same old crime story with the same old crap, but when I got to the torture segment I realized that this game is going all out to make its point and it made an impact, it wasn't just shock value.
I want games to take the risks of tackling stories where things like extreme violence, extreme gore, rape, torture and such are relevant points.
The industry is full of games that are about War, yet the only games that I know of that are showing how "War is hell" are Spec Ops The Line and MGS5, but I never finished Spec Ops The Line because it was just so boring to play, I'm over and done with generic cover shooters.
Also I said before, do you really think Telltale's Game of Thrones is going to bring along all the extreme stuff from the TV series?

I don't expect some extreme moment to happen in most games like say Uncharted 4, that's more or less a fun Indiana Jones adventure, but if games are going to keep on tackling dark stories about war and/or the apocalypse then make them show how extreme those worlds are, Last of Us was predictable and safe, all the extreme stuff was just implied, Call of Duty is, well, Call of Duty.

Also I'm one who's all for diversity in gaming and that means ALL kinds of diversity, offensive and sick included, being able to play as a strong female character? Bring it on. A juvenile sexist pig? Yup. A foul mouthed teenager or scared teenage girl? Sure, as long as they're original and not replacing other favorite characters of mine.
I liked DNF, mostly because I never expected it to be good, I just wanted to see Duke again and see what the devs did all those years, I was able to laugh at the toilet humor, poop throwing and even the wall boobs, all just because.
That part where Duke talks to the twins in the hive could have been removed or handled better, but still it didn't do anything to offend me, if anything I wanted to kill the aliens even more.
It's really simple in the end, if it's too much for you, no one is telling you to play it.

 

[The Final Offer]

I haven't played that South Park game and I don't even like South Park.

The thing is, games today aren't getting any better, art or no, story focused or no, they're all predictable and just boring.
Last of Us was meant to deliver an intense survival gameplay experience with a great dark story, but the gameplay part was a flat out lie and the story was predictable, never once did I doubt that Joel and Ellie would walk off into the sunset happily ever after and the violence was so safe I can't believe people consider it extreme.
GTA5 was pretty much boring and I expected another same old crime story with the same old crap, but when I got to the torture segment I realized that this game is going all out to make its point and it made an impact, it wasn't just shock value.
I want games to take the risks of tackling stories where things like extreme violence, extreme gore, rape, torture and such are relevant points.
The industry is full of games that are about War, yet the only games that I know of that are showing how "War is hell" are Spec Ops The Line and MGS5, but I never finished Spec Ops The Line because it was just so boring to play, I'm over and done with generic cover shooters.
Also I said before, do you really think Telltale's Game of Thrones is going to bring along all the extreme stuff from the TV series?

I don't expect some extreme moment to happen in most games like say Uncharted 4, that's more or less a fun Indiana Jones adventure, but if games are going to keep on tackling dark stories about war and/or the apocalypse then make them show how extreme those worlds are, Last of Us was predictable and safe, all the extreme stuff was just implied, Call of Duty is, well, Call of Duty.

Also I'm one who's all for diversity in gaming and that means ALL kinds of diversity, offensive and sick included, being able to play as a strong female character? Bring it on. A juvenile sexist pig? Yup. A foul mouthed teenager or scared teenage girl? Sure, as long as they're original and not replacing other favorite characters of mine.
I liked DNF, mostly because I never expected it to be good, I just wanted to see Duke again and see what the devs did all those years, I was able to laugh at the toilet humor, poop throwing and even the wall boobs, all just because.
That part where Duke talks to the twins in the hive could have been removed or handled better, but still it didn't do anything to offend me, if anything I wanted to kill the aliens even more.
It's really simple in the end, if it's too much for you, no one is telling you to play it.

Hey! There's a reason Deadpool is my avatar. I don't mind the carnage in video games either.

South Park crossed the line several times I didn't even flinch. Seems like the stories in the "news" has hardened my shell.

 

[Blue_Rose]

Well you can't really blame games for being like this. They've evolved from Pong or Mario or whatever and try to incorporate cinematic aspects to them. Game developers aren't trying to promote all this dark stuff. It's just realism and they're realists. And if all this torture, rape, murder, etc is not someone's cup of tea they can just go play something rated ESRB T or Pegi 13 or whatever the rating is for young teens, because most of those have toned down mature content and most of them are an adventure type thing and not so much as gritty.

 

[xMobilemux]

Hey! There's a reason Deadpool is my avatar. I don't mind the carnage in video games either.

South Park crossed the line several times I didn't even flinch. Seems like the stories in the "news" has hardened my shell.

I love Deadpool too, the leaked movie shots have me excited, here's hoping for maximum carnage.......and bewbs!!