why hack and slash sales are low

[Chancey289]

No matter how well it's classification is dressed up, The Musou games (Dynasty Warriors, Hyrule Warriors, Samurai Warriors, Warriors Orochi) and Sengoku Basara are Hack/Slash titles there's no shame in that.
They have an audience, many gamers love those games & want their sequels.
If they didn't then they wouldn't be made.

I think it's as i said the gaming industry takes something that's popular & runs with it.
And COD. FPS is what getting run into the ground at the moment.

Dynasty Warriors is just the CoD of Hack n slash.

 

[Pale Rider]

.

There was a time, after gorging myself on games like Devil May Cry, Onimusha, God of War, and Ninja Gaiden where I was utterly convinced that this was true. Almost every hack-n'-slash game has absolutely no plot to speak of, and even less character development.

I literally thought that this genre would stand unopposed as the single subsidiary of gaming that would remain completely devoid of an engaging story or fleshed-out characters, and be given the effort and attention to detail as other story-driven games.

And then Lords of Shadow came along...with Hollywood actors for voice talent, nice narrative themes and undertones, and some of the best development for a H&S protagonist. It was proof that not every game in this genre had to be some over-the-top power-fantasy or tongue-and-cheek fever dream.

My point is, for a VIDEOGAME, PLOT should exist to support the GAMEPLAY, NOT the other way around. It's kinda clear through your post that you need bullsh!t like "character-development" and "relateable and fleshed-out characters" in your game, but for me, a simple plot with a good gameplay is far and much better than story-driven games with fleshed out characters but sub-par gameplay.

You could have a legitimate story and characters,

Honestly, I don't understand what exactly you mean by "legitimate" story and characters, but I am gonna say one thing- legitimacy may shorten the limit of your creativity.

even if the gameplay or logic seemed implausible at times.

I might sound aggressive while saying this but I am not- wtf is wrong with gamers nowadays?? Logic? What kinda logic are you talking about? Wtf is the need to explain and think about logic? Running low on health? drink/eat potions/health giving items and get insta-healded. You died? No problems, got 3 extra lives and plenty of saves. Yep, LOGIC. For crying out loud, you are playing a ****ing video game. The most LOGICAL thing would be to leave your IQ of 560 behind and ****ing enjoy the game.

I'm all up for jokes on 'logic of games', but when it comes to consider it seriously, it really makes me *headdesk*



With all that said, it is quite clear that we want different things in games. So, before we start trying to slit one another's throat, let's agree to disagree.

 

[WolfOD64]

My point is, for a VIDEOGAME, PLOT should exist to support the GAMEPLAY, NOT the other way around. It's kinda clear through your post that you need bullsh!t like "character-development" and "relateable and fleshed-out characters" in your game, but for me, a simple plot with a good gameplay is far and much better than story-driven games with fleshed out characters but sub-par gameplay.

Honestly, I don't understand what exactly you mean by "legitimate" story and characters, but I am gonna say one thing- legitimacy may shorten the limit of your creativity.



I might sound aggressive while saying this but I am not- wtf is wrong with gamers nowadays?? Logic? What kinda logic are you talking about? Wtf is the need to explain and think about logic? Running low on health? drink/eat potions/health giving items and get insta-healded. You died? No problems, got 3 extra lives and plenty of saves. Yep, LOGIC. For crying out loud, you are playing a ****ing video game. The most LOGICAL thing would be to leave your IQ of 560 behind and ****ing enjoy the game.

I'm all up for jokes on 'logic of games', but when it comes to consider it seriously, it really makes me *headdesk*



With all that said, it is quite clear that we want different things in games. So, before we start trying to slit one another's throat, let's agree to disagree.

Whoa, whoa, I didn't have a knife poised in hand when I posted that...cool it. I wasn't denouncing what you were saying, I was just offering some input.

Maybe you're right---maybe we do have different tastes. After all, you stated above how you thought Lords of Shadow had "sub-par gameplay to support a story", whereas I didn't find the gameplay to be sub-par at all. The only time I think a game has "sub-par gameplay to support a story" is when the overall product turns out to be a pointless video-game equivalent of Simon Says, such as Heavy Rain or Asura's Wrath.

As for "legitimacy limiting creativity"---I assume you're talking about serious or down-to-earth writing and characters limiting the scope and imagination of the game in question---but I've found that in H&S games, it's the opposite. Lords of Shadow, at least in my opinion, has some nice mythology and sprawling landscapes, to say nothing of its sinister and often-grotesque monster designs. You can be as imaginative and vibrant with gameplay and design as you want...but you can still salvage a good story in the midst of it all. I'm not saying every game has to, but if a game is using a lot of cinematics, they should at least try to make the characters and story more engaging than the run-of-the-mill action-fest. Such is the case with Devil May Cry, where the developers inject over an hour's worth of cutscenes. For DMC4's development, Kobayashi even stated that he wanted the cutscenes and story to be so good, that anyone could cutt them out of the game and stringing them together to seamlessly make an 1-hour long film with it. For so much ambition, it doesn't seem a lot to ask for the cutscenes and writing within said cutscenes to be good. That's all I'm saying.

And when I mentioned "logic" before, I was mostly talking about gameplay elements that contradict with something the story is attempting to do, not overall logic in games in general. An example would be the recent Tomb Raider reboot, where Lara is supposed to be a petrified amateur who's completely shocked by the violence and killing around her, but has no problem with shoving an arrow into someone's eye-socket once the gameplay starts.

I wasn't trying to crucify anyone on their opinion----heck, I wasn't even blatantly disagreeing with you. I just made a comment. Calm down.

 

[Erian1Mortal]

I know many people don't like Tameem from Ninja Theory but I think this : http://www.hellblade.com/?p=16972
was quite a good read. He brings up a few very good points about the AAA games and where the problems with developing these types of games are. I recommend reading it.

 

[Pale Rider]

If I wasn't so ugly, I'd gladly share a pic to show you how calm I was. Anyway, that's not the point. So let's go ahead.

Whoa, whoa, I didn't have a knife poised in hand when I posted that...cool it. I wasn't denouncing what you were saying, I was just offering some input.

Maybe you're right---maybe we do have different tastes. After all, you stated above how you thought Lords of Shadow had "sub-par gameplay to support a story", whereas I didn't find the gameplay to be sub-par at all. The only time I think a game has "sub-par gameplay to support a story" is when the overall product turns out to be a pointless video-game equivalent of Simon Says, such as Heavy Rain or Asura's Wrath.

I never spoke of any games in particular, let alone LoS. Never even implied anything about it. I was just speaking in general. We differ in tastes as in you want your games to have a balance between gameplay and everything else whereas I am happy to play games with decent or somewhat bad plot but good gameplay. Of course, there are exceptions, LoS as in this case, but even that wouldn't deter me from playing games with garbage plots.

As for "legitimacy limiting creativity"---I assume you're talking about serious or down-to-earth writing and characters limiting the scope and imagination of the game in question---but I've found that in H&S games, it's the opposite. Lords of Shadow, at least in my opinion, has some nice mythology and sprawling landscapes, to say nothing of its sinister and often-grotesque monster designs. You can be as imaginative and vibrant with gameplay and design as you want...but you can still salvage a good story in the midst of it all. I'm not saying every game has to, but if a game is using a lot of cinematics, they should at least try to make the characters and story more engaging than the run-of-the-mill action-fest. Such is the case with Devil May Cry, where the developers inject over an hour's worth of cutscenes. For DMC4's development, Kobayashi even stated that he wanted the cutscenes and story to be so good, that anyone could cutt them out of the game and stringing them together to seamlessly make an 1-hour long film with it. For so much ambition, it doesn't seem a lot to ask for the cutscenes and writing within said cutscenes to be good. That's all I'm saying.

I kinda agree with that it is not too much to ask to try to make story and characters interesting if the developers are going to include hourly long of cut-scenes, but you answered that yourself -- not everygame has to -- and that's what creates diversity which is good, IMHO. Say, like DMC4 for over-the-top cheesy action and LoS for other stuff.

And when I mentioned "logic" before, I was mostly talking about gameplay elements that contradict with something the story is attempting to do, not overall logic in games in general. An example would be the recent Tomb Raider reboot, where Lara is supposed to be a petrified amateur who's completely shocked by the violence and killing around her, but has no problem with shoving an arrow into someone's eye-socket once the gameplay starts.

Damn! I misinterpreted your post. Heck, I would say I completely missed your point. Apologies for that. To give another example, played Dragon Age: Origins? It's kinda stupid how the game's lore and setting tells you how much the Blood Mages are feared, but when you use it blood magic, no one seems to bat an eye.

 

[WolfOD64]

I never spoke of any games in particular, let alone LoS. Never even implied anything about it. I was just speaking in general. We differ in tastes as in you want your games to have a balance between gameplay and everything else whereas I am happy to play games with decent or somewhat bad plot but good gameplay. Of course, there are exceptions, LoS as in this case, but even that wouldn't deter me from playing games with garbage plots.

Good gameplay doesn't deter me from terrible plots either, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to overcome the mediocre stories in games like Resident Evil without abandoning the controller. The problem is where a game flaunts a developers' emphasis and effort on crafting an adequate, even exceptional story, in the player's face to the point where it becomes overtly noticeable. Which brings me to my response below...

I kinda agree with that it is not too much to ask to try to make story and characters interesting if the developers are going to include hourly long of cut-scenes, but you answered that yourself -- not everygame has to -- and that's what creates diversity which is good, IMHO. Say, like DMC4 for over-the-top cheesy action and LoS for other stuff.

See, the problem with games like Devil May Cry 4, is that they aren't trying to be cheesy or over-the-top---they are trying to be serious to some degree. If you went to the story and scenario writers for the game, the people who handled the motion capture and wrote the dialogue, and you tried to laugh along with them about how "cheesy and over-the-top" it was....they'd be confused, surprised even. Itsuno, Morihashi and the rest who worked on the game constantly stated in their developer videos on how they wanted to change DMC's tendency to overlook the story, and have things like "character relationships" and a "dynamic, engaging plot." They put just as much emphasis on the story as they did the gameplay, and attempted, in their own words, to make a plot with more density and narrative significance "than the past three games combined."

Characters like Dante are cheesy and over-the-top---but the scenarios and dilemmas they find themselves in are meant to be taken seriously. If you won't believe me when it comes to the games, cast your doubtful gaze on the DMC Animated Series that's..."remembered so fondly" by the DMC fanbase. That series was the one instance where there was no gameplay to serve as the diversion or priority, and their attempts to craft a serious plot with actual suspense and narrative weight were blatantly obvious. In fact, the writers of the show stated that they intended the show to be a sample of what DMC4 would be like, and that they referred to it many times when handling the story of the game.

It's one thing for a game to be cheesy and over-the-top, and another thing for a game to try to be serious and shove a competent story in the audience's face---and fail to deliver. If you have some assumptions that the series is comfortably seated in a state of blissful cheesiness and tongue-in-cheek scenarios, you may want to inform the developers of them....because they sure aren't sharing the same agenda.

Damn! I misinterpreted your post. Heck, I would say I completely missed your point. Apologies for that. To give another example, played Dragon Age: Origins? It's kinda stupid how the game's lore and setting tells you how much the Blood Mages are feared, but when you use it blood magic, no one seems to bat an eye.

I've only just started playing Dragon Age: Origins, and yeah...I have noticed that. It's extremely weird---it's one thing for any other developer to let something like this slide, but Bioware? In a story-driven RPG of all things? You'd think they wouldn't let such a massive in-game plot-hole to get by...

Oh, well.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Dynasty Warriors is just the CoD of Hack n slash.

It's better than nothing.

And believe me, we're very close to having nothing.

 

[The Final Offer]

It's better than nothing.

And believe me, we're very close to having nothing.

Cool your jets. Lookie what I've been playing for free.

That aside, @VampireWicked those videos are really informative and I've become a fan of him.

It's alright for any of us to have a negative perspective on the hack and slash genre when DMC 1 was it's forerunner. I felt that I needed an expectation of the hack and slash games lifespan and I came up with around ten years.

It's quite simple as to why Bayonetta 2 is succeeding in critic reviews and with fans. It's the content. Multiplayer, different pacing to gameplay, and it's feeling of open world without being open world.

Think about what DmC, the latest from the Devil May Cry team, has actually done differently than it's predecessor......that's right the story and visuals. Anything else? Nope. In my hands the gameplay feels perfected in combat. There's nothing different. DmC is like a demonstration of what the Devil May Cry team is capable of and what a sensible story can do to compliment that.

That's it. No extra content, just combat heavy focus and that DOES NOT sell games anymore. It's so evident now, that it's scaring gamers. Platinum Games saw that and pushed Bayonetta 2 back until the end of this year to add this missing content. The story isn't too much to talk about and that's not why you're playing Bayonetta 2, you're here to find the fun in it's combat and what you got was much more than you expected from a hack and slash. Actually, everything a hack and slash needs to become relevant in the gaming world.

All I'm hoping and praying for is that SOMEONE *cough*Capcom*cough* capitalizes on these ideas and make a content rich Devil May Cry game. The gameplay has been perfected Capcom, all you need to focus on is the replay value and the player count.

I can't find not ONE OF YOU, who wouldn't love Dante and Vergil Cooperative missions or the ability to play as Trish or Mary.

 

[Pale Rider]

OMG YOU ARE SO AWESOME!
That's what i think at times when gamers say they need absolute logic or true & true realism.
You're playing a video game, if you want realism why are you playing a video game.
It's like watching LoonyToons & complaining about how loony they are.

Well, can't say I'm not blushing xD
But yeah, on a serious note, LOGIC talk sometimes really riles me up. I mean, people moan about how there always a haystack next to high point to perform the "leap of faith" in AC, and people here, on this forum, have spoken on DmC being more "logical" because there is a reason behind spawning of demons! You might not believe it, but one of the reviews of one of the games in Hitman series had a snark on how it was illogical and unrealistic that every clothes fit Agent 47 perfectly, he had time to fold and unfold every cloth, and clothes had no blood stains even of he hit enemies on the chest.

 

[The Final Offer]

There's a reason I claim that Spawn: Enter the Demon's Hand is one of Capcom's best games. It has so much content and by content I mean Weapons (actual gameplay strategies) that until this day I do not know the full list. It's like what Destiny has, the random loot. This game had this already. Hours and hours of fun and unlocking things was not kept to just campaign, it's for every game mode available.

I'm not trying to get any of you to play the game. It's just the experience I had with it and what I'm receiving in gaming today makes me upset. Right now, seriously, we should have games that keep us glued to them until their sequel comes out. So much power in these systems and you're still making content light games? What is going on? Why is this STILL happening?

I rarely get excited, like extremely excited about video games and it's just NOW that the masses are getting games like The Division and Destiny. Hell, even Call of Duty has a loot system now.

I'm going to say this and I'm sure alot of you are gonna flip but...........Indie games are the best thing that's ever happened to the gaming industry.

For those of you who don't know why I would say such a thing, here it comes; CREATIVE FREEDOM. If you go Indie, you guys would be surprised SURPRISED at what games they take inspiration from and capitalize on.

I got my Megaman X fix off of Azure Striker Gunvolt.
I'm getting my Muramasa Demon Blade fix (A game I didn't get to play) from Dust: A Elysian Tail.
I scratched my Defender itch with Resogun.
I wanted a Wii so I got Braid for that Mario nostalgia.
For those of you who don't know, Minecraft was an Indie game.
Now here's a kicker....Ninja Theory went Independent with Hellblade.

If anyone has any naysay to Indie games..

"These games cost less to make than a triple A title, works like a triple A title, rates like a triple A title, looks like a triple A title, costs consumers less than a triple A title, it's digital, and it's content rich."

-Drops mic-

 

[Demi-fiend]

Alright, let's stop being elitists now.

 

[V's patron]

I don't think having better stories in 'Hack n slash' games is a bad thing, I just dont see it as "the great savior" people claim it to be since it comes with its own set of difficulties (storytelling is more intangible/subjective making it harder to course correct than game-play.)

So i think what Final offer was talking about with the content of a game and finding a way to make that expansive and marketable to appeal to people is the way to go.

Hack n slash games sales are low because their isn't an immediate need to go out and play them. That is bad because game companies still judge sales in a small window (I.E. 2 or 3 weeks etc). It is an archaic practice but not likely to change anytime soon.

The indie market could become the home of hack n slash games since your more likely to try more things when they arent 60$ a pop.

 

[Chancey289]

I don't think having better stories in 'Hack n slash' games is a bad thing, .

Of course it isn't a bad thing. Why knock something that would only bring more praise to an already good game?

Oh yea, because evidently a decent attempt at story telling means it was taking something away from gameplay despite this claim having no real evidence to back it up. It's just their arbitrary claims.

The only time I have seen story actually interrupt gameplay was during something like MGS 4. And yes, I do LOVE the MGS series and I'm a die hard fan, but even I can get annoyed by playing the game for like 5 minutes to then see a 15 minute cutscene, play for another 10 minutes, to then a 25 minute cutscene. And did that really bring down the gameplay? No. It still did all the MGS goodness I'd expect. It just had cutscene overload.

 

[WolfOD64]

The only time I have seen story actually interrupt gameplay was during something like MGS 4. And yes, I do LOVE the MGS series and I'm a die hard fan, but even I can get annoyed by playing the game for like 5 minutes to then see a 15 minute cutscene, play for another 10 minutes, to then a 25 minute cutscene. And did that really bring down the gameplay? No. It still did all the MGS goodness I'd expect. It just had cutscene overload.

It's the cutscenes, not the gameplay, that either makes or breaks the Metal Gear experience for some people.

It's a battle of extremes. You either love Metal Gear for its cinematic approach, or you utterly despise it.

 

[Demi-fiend]

It's a battle of extremes. You either love Metal Gear for its cinematic approach, or you utterly despise it.

... I'm in the latter category.

 

[Innsmouth]

The only way to pull HnS from it's current state is stop deliver half-made games. What happened to games that were 12 hours long to finish or at least made you retry so often that it took more than 10 hours to do so? They are rare nowadays. Also HnS tend to take lazy decisions like rehash bosses or even worse reskin same boss multiple times. When you only have like 5-6 bosses and already 2 of them is reskin it's pretty bad. HnS need level of polish that only bayo2 got recently. Without it they stuck with either games that are to short or reskinned stuff, which helps nobody. People really demand longer play times or multiplayer nowadays and since I think mp is more suitable for genres liek fightings or fps, at least playing times can improve.

 

[Innsmouth]

@Innsmouth
Maybe it's because of the western gaming industry's assumptions of what they think western gamers want.

I think it rather because of lazy developers who think rehashing and reskinning will do most work and they only gather cash

 

[Innsmouth]

Wouldn't the Hack/Slash genre fit that more then anything.

Developers can copy & paste a handful of character designs & multiple them to make hordes
Not much story needed, or motion capturing
Few voice actors needed
Level designs are more background then anything.
The developers can lock content away & sell it as downloadable content later.

Wouldn't this
Have a smaller budget than this

I mean look at this
I think the term rehashing and reskinning is more suitable towards Hack/Slash genre & the gaming market would be flooded with Hack/Sla

Actually i just speaking about overall trend in gaming. Just look at games like new Thief. NES games have more enemy variety thatn it

 

[Innsmouth]

For all of it
I blame the western gaming industry & the LACK of the japanese gaming industry's influence.

The western gaming industry has gotten to uptight & don't understand the meaning of the words FUN anymore.

That's very true. Sadly i dont think it gets better anytime soon

 

[TyrantWayne9999]

Has anyone played Legend of Korra?

The only reason I ask is because I saw it on steam and watched the 2 short gameplay videos it had....It looked interesting. Though I hold a lot of skepticism because of how....subpar past Avatar licensed games were. If it's any consolation, it's made by Platinum Games. Then again, it is a license.....

Iono man.