What is Gilver?

[Dante Redgrave]

DMC the anime directly referenced the Novel, and the anime was overseen by DMC4's director as well as had a number of episodes penned by him, Episode 8 outright references when Dante went by the name "Tony", the Novel's background and setting info is STILL canon. Where do you think his penchent for strawberry sundaes came from?

 

[Morgan]

Those were Discontinuity Nods. The fact remains that the general plot and specific details of the novel (what Gilver did and who Dante knew during that time) are completely ignored, so you're leaving more things of the novel out than in when trying to attach it to the main series. Whether or not Dante likes sundaes has no impact on continuity, while the fact that Vergil had no problem using a gun and killed people deliberately to antagonize Dante does. Episode 8 of the anime was a trainwreck anyway, and that the anime series was overseen by Kobayashi isn't really a point in its favor. The anime itself barely had a plot aside from three episodes.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Those were Discontinuity Nods. The fact remains that the general plot and specific details of the novel (what Gilver did and who Dante knew during that time) are completely ignored, so you're leaving more things of the novel out than in when trying to attach it to the main series. Whether or not Dante likes sundaes has no impact on continuity, while the fact that Vergil had no problem using a gun and killed people deliberately to antagonize Dante does. Episode 8 of the anime was a trainwreck anyway, and that the anime series was overseen by Kobayashi isn't really a point in its favor. The anime itself barely had a plot aside from three episodes.

Considering that the general plot and a lot of specifics give in DMC1 were IGNORED when DMC3 essentially rebooted the entire franchise anyway(even coming out the same year as another influencial reboot, Batman Begins), that's a weak arguement. Capcom has still reference character and setting information that was established in the novel, such as Dante once going by Tony Redgrave, the guns were made for him, ect ect, therefor, it's information is still canon.

 

[Morgan]

Episode 8 never confirmed that he went by "Tony Redgrave" when he was younger, simply that he went by "Tony", which doesn't make the novel any more canon than it already isn't, nor do they actually mention that his guns were made by someone other than himself, or anything that was definitely in the novel in any substantial way (that the Force Edge could talk to him, that he could change its shape, that Nell was his mother figure, that he had a partner before Trish, that he opened bank accounts for his partner's remaining two daughters after the man died and Dante had to mercy kill the eldest girl, that Gilver was responsible for the deaths of all of those people, that apparently the key to opening the Underworld is killing a bunch of people and sacrificing one to a giant demonic tree, etc.). That DMC3 revised content from DMC1 is irrelevant; they're both in the same media, and the games are more canon than the supplementary material. Any references to the supplementary material are simply references, and in no way make the status of the disowned continuity suddenly exist again in its entirety.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

I'd love to know then what makes you an authority certified by CAPCOM to decide what is canon and in continuity and what is not. Do you work for them, were you part of staff for DMC3, did you work on the anime, do you work for them in any capacity that allows you to state what is canon to the series bible(if there even is one anymore) or not? Hm?

No?

Then please stop stating that it's "disconitunity" when it in fact as so far by Capcom has never been deemed so. DMC3 was a reboot, the information on Dante's back ground given in the novel still is canon and in continuity with DMC1, as was intended. DMC3 is what conflicted even with the series' own internal continuity.

 

[Morgan]

And you think you're certified to say that "the entire DMC1 novel is canon" despite it contradicting major events because of a first name and because Dante eats sundaes, while the DMC4 Novel that covers events in the same game it was for is "an out of continuity AU version"? Oh please. Nothing in the main series confirms that the first novel happened in the timeline despite multiple opportunities for them to do just that.

Here's the point you don't seem to be getting. With DMC3 and the manga in the story, the novel does not fit. With the novel, DMC3 and the manga do not fit. They are mutually exclusive versions of Dante's origin. You cannot just say "everything is canon" and try to jam the novel before the manga and 3 as if it works. It doesn't. Gilver's and Vergil's characters (and essentially Dante's and Dante's) are too different, and neither character recognizes their "past" as you say it happened.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Deadly Fortune is an entirely different situation from the DMC1 prequel novel, and you know it. THAT novel was written AFTER the fact of DMC4 and went out of it's way to directly conflict with many portrayal and storypoints of the game because it was written as Morihashi Bingo's version of DMC4, not the final canon version. the first DMC novel was written to align with DMC1 which it does. DMC3 rebooted the story, which actually by technicallity makes it, in of itself, a seperate continuity from Kamiya's DMC universe which included Viewtiful Joe. Capcom has never deemed the novel to be out of canon, while Deadly Fortune makes itself out of continuity with how many liberties and contridictions to DMC4 it took.

 

[Morgan]

The DMC1 Novel was written after the fact of DMC1 as well and contradicted events within the game that it was for, specifically on the subject of Vergil. Dante doesn't recognize Nelo Angelo despite having seen him before as Gilver AND the fact that Gilver himself used black armor similar to what Nelo Angelo wears. He remembers the guy so little that his flashback after taking the amulet is of when they were children, not when they were both recently mercenaries. The fact that Gilver even existed as an antagonist with his own will when Kamiya's idea for him was that he was kidnapped at 8 and brainwashed into being Nelo Angelo is contradictory, and for some reason the novel says that Dante didn't make his own guns even though the description for them in every game including the first says that he made them himself. Your point? It took as many liberties with DMC1 as much as Deadly Fortune did for DMC4.

Here's the "entirely different situation" you're talking about: the first novel was written by a guy nowhere near involved with the game and overseen by someone who was and no longer is for every game after. While Capcom never deliberately stated in an interview that the novel was not canon, they instead created DMC3 to take its place in the timeline, and "the history of DMC" during DMC4's PS3 installation screen does not acknowledge that the novel happened at all in writing. The DMC4 novel was written by a scenario writer for the third and fourth games (so the writer there was more involved than the writer for the first one), and was acceptable enough that Capcom allowed it to be published with the writer claiming that it was the "complete" version of DMC4. They never said it wasn't canon, but they're not going out of their way to ignore what was on it.

Your only argument that the DMC4 novel isn't canon is BS that applies to the first, and your argument that the first novel is "still canon" is the assumption that Kobayashi somehow has the power to make the projects he wasn't even involved in legitimate through mentioning vague non-details in passing in an anime with a trainwreck plot that on its own gives absolutely no f**ks about the game it was set after either and ignores details from it too (Trish's personality is rewritten and she doesn't wield the Sparda sword, Dante's personality is also rewritten to suddenly be the depressed DMC2 version, and despite Dante needing massive help to defeat Mundus he somehow owns a Mundus-level devil with a one-second Devil Trigger and no Sparda sword).

DMC3 rebooted the story and in some way tried to align itself with DMC1. It has just about the same problems with the first game as the DMC1 novel did to the first game on the subject of Vergil, but because (and I keep saying this) the novels in general are supplementary material, the games that overwrite them take precedence and Capcom holds the games in higher regard than the novel(s) they deliberately wrote over in the game's making if any were written over at all.

If all it takes for the media to be canon is "Capcom never said they don't exist," then you should automatically include Viewtiful Joe and the Dreamwave Productions version of DMC1 into the timeline and try to fit all those details despite the part where Capcom deliberately ignores them by the time DMC4 rolls around or they contradict the games (Viewtiful Joe says DMC2 didn't happen, Capcom says "it happened, but in the far future"; the events in Dreamwave's DMC1 shows Trish betraying Dante in Mallet rather than the Underworld, the game shows it differently). Hell, throw in Bayonetta too-- there's mention there of a woman named Eva partnering with a Legendary Dark Knight to fight off the forces of Hell, and Capcom didn't say it wasn't canon.

The hell are you even saying anymore? If DMC3 rebooted the story, making it separate from the Kamiya canon, it means the novel (which is part of Kamiya's continuity) can't attach itself to it at all, and whether or not the anime references it is irrelevant because the continuity is still rebooted by that point so the novel doesn't "exist" to be referenced. That either is or is not the case. Pick one.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

The DMC1 Novel was written after the fact of DMC1 as well and contradicted events within the game that it was for, specifically on the subject of Vergil. Dante doesn't recognize Nelo Angelo despite having seen him before as Gilver AND the fact that Gilver himself used black armor similar to what Nelo Angelo wears. He remembers the guy so little that his flashback after taking the amulet is of when they were children, not when they were both recently mercenaries. The fact that Gilver even existed as an antagonist with his own will when Kamiya's idea for him was that he was kidnapped at 8 and brainwashed into being Nelo Angelo is contradictory, and for some reason the novel says that Dante didn't make his own guns even though the description for them in every game including the first says that he made them himself. Your point? It took as many liberties with DMC1 as much as Deadly Fortune did for DMC4.

All we know is that Vergil vanished when they were children, neither DMC1 nor Kamiya said that Mundus had him ever since. Also, the games only call Eb and Iv HOMEMADE guns, never that Dante built them himself. The second novel even goes on to detail that he's been modifying and enhancing them even since Nell built them for him. Also, the Novel does not detail exactly what Gilver's armor looked like, only that it was black armor. Considering that the novel did, at the time, vaguely suggest that Dante ended up killing Vergil, and DMC4 even stated that Vergil, as Nero Angelo, was already DEAD, those two are actually right in line with each other.

Here's the "entirely different situation" you're talking about: the first novel was written by a guy nowhere near involved with the game and overseen by someone who was and no longer is for every game after. While Capcom never deliberately stated in an interview that the novel was not canon, they instead created DMC3 to take its place in the timeline, and "the history of DMC" during DMC4's PS3 installation screen does not acknowledge that the novel happened at all in writing. The DMC4 novel was written by a scenario writer for the third and fourth games (so the writer there was more involved than the writer for the first one), and was acceptable enough that Capcom allowed it to be published with the writer claiming that it was the "complete" version of DMC4. They never said it wasn't canon, but they're not going out of their way to ignore what was on it.

DMC the first was written with information directly from Kamiya and a lot of direct imput from him, Deadly Fortune was written after Bingo had left Capcom and decided he wanted to tell HIS version of DMC4 as the "complete" version.

Your only argument that the DMC4 novel isn't canon is BS that applies to the first, and your argument that the first novel is "still canon" is the assumption that Kobayashi somehow has the power to make the projects he wasn't even involved in legitimate through mentioning vague non-details in passing in an anime with a trainwreck plot that on its own gives absolutely no f**ks about the game it was set after either and ignores details from it too (Trish's personality is rewritten and she doesn't wield the Sparda sword, Dante's personality is also rewritten to suddenly be the depressed DMC2 version, and despite Dante needing massive help to defeat Mundus he somehow owns a Mundus-level devil with a one-second Devil Trigger and no Sparda sword).

Which shows how much of an over stated joke Abigail*falls over laughing at that name* really was. Also, then never said Abigail was MUNDUS level, just "the devil king". they never state which one. Mundus? Argosax? SPARDA maybe even? Never said, never clarified. Alsok, considering that character details like Tony as dante's alias, the sundaes, and such reference directly the novel's character quircks, yes, that info is still canon.

DMC3 rebooted the story and in some way tried to align itself with DMC1. It has just about the same problems with the first game as the DMC1 novel did to the first game on the subject of Vergil, but because (and I keep saying this) the novels in general are supplementary material, the games that overwrite them take precedence and Capcom holds the games in higher regard than the novel(s) they deliberately wrote over in the game's making if any were written over at all.

So yeah, it's a retcon, and like every ****ing star wars never every published has to keep retconning but is still in teh greater canon because of changing writers and George Lucas is an idiot, you have to reevaluate how teh events of the novel work, you do not discount them out right

If all it takes for the media to be canon is "Capcom never said they don't exist," then you should automatically include Viewtiful Joe and the Dreamwave Productions version of DMC1 into the timeline and try to fit all those details despite the part where Capcom deliberately ignores them by the time DMC4 rolls around or they contradict the games (Viewtiful Joe says DMC2 didn't happen, Capcom says "it happened, but in the far future"; the events in Dreamwave's DMC1 shows Trish betraying Dante in Mallet rather than the Underworld, the game shows it differently). Hell, throw in Bayonetta too-- there's mention there of a woman named Eva partnering with a Legendary Dark Knight to fight off the forces of Hell, and Capcom didn't say it wasn't canon.

Well, if you wann'a fget into Kamiya's versiomn of DMC canon, then yeah, Joe happens, DMC2 didn't, DMC3 didn't DMC4 didn't, and Bayonetta is in the same universe, and Eva was an Umbran Witch who forged a contract witH Sparda...except that's his current rendition now, which will never apply offically.

The hell are you even saying anymore? If DMC3 rebooted the story, making it separate from the Kamiya canon, it means the novel (which is part of Kamiya's continuity) can't attach itself to it at all, and whether or not the anime references it is irrelevant because the continuity is still rebooted by that point so the novel doesn't "exist" to be referenced. That either is or is not the case. Pick one.

I'm making a point on reboots with that. People bitch about DmC as a reboot, forgetting that DMC already was rebooted at least ONCE.
Here's something also for you; Japanese writing tends not to care about continuity or consistency like western writing tries to, and pretty much doesn't go "well, that's old info, so it's no longer canon", they tend to just leave it there because it's information already established, even if it's not updated. japanese writing doesn't often to retcons, they just do whatever the current head writer wants and balls on it if it's not matching up quite right. In Deadly Fortune's case, it was essentially like, say....El Hazard the animated series vs El Hazard the OAV series; two different versions of the same story with a number of major differences. DF is what Bingo wanted, so it's his "pocket" canon, but is not the canon of DMC4. In the case of the DMC1 novel...it was written specifically to give that background info for DMC1, from both the writer AND from Kamiya. That's a whole lot different from "Ex employee writing and publishing after he left and has no say anymore."

 

[Judgement]

I can break this argument up real fast by a quote by Kamiya a year after DMC3 was released:

"I acknowledge all of the games in this series to be a part of the timeline. Even Devil May Cry 2, which we do not see fit still does fit into the series. The novel however, does also fit into the timeline as well. The first novel as I see it was based just before the actions of Devil May Cry 3. I also understand there are several character inequalities from the original games storyline however we still view it as part of the series regardless. You may debate amongst yourselves as you please but that is how it is and it is official. You the fans are truly what decides the fate of the series so whatever you believe so be it. That being said no matter what we the creators say in the matter will not change your view. Take it as you will I have said enough. Don't expect anything more."

He goes on about the second book and what not too, I'll find the link for you all once I can. This was just what I had saved in a word file from years ago.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

*brofists Judgement* THANK YOU. And that did clear up a misconception then that Kamiya did not include everything after DMC1 in his view of canon, thank you much!

 

[Morgan]

Here's something also for you; Japanese writing tends not to care about continuity or consistency like western writing tries to, and pretty much doesn't go "well, that's old info, so it's no longer canon", they tend to just leave it there because it's information already established, even if it's not updated. japanese writing doesn't often to retcons, they just do whatever the current head writer wants and balls on it if it's not matching up quite right. In Deadly Fortune's case, it was essentially like, say....El Hazard the animated series vs El Hazard the OAV series; two different versions of the same story with a number of major differences. DF is what Bingo wanted, so it's his "pocket" canon, but is not the canon of DMC4. In the case of the DMC1 novel...it was written specifically to give that background info for DMC1, from both the writer AND from Kamiya. That's a whole lot different from "Ex employee writing and publishing after he left and has no say anymore."

Except for some reason Kamiya is still allowed to "expand" a series he has no say in ever since the second game came out? No, he doesn't. He has about as much say in what happens as Bingo did for DMC4 in his novel.

Kamiya's idea was that Vergil was kidnapped when Eva was killed (hence, Dante "lost a mother and brother to evil twenty years ago"). The novel outright ignores just when Dante is supposed to meet Vergil after the fact, and has him understandably not recognize the guy due to bandages, only to later not recognize the guy even though he bares his face for the entirety of the last battle, and he doesn't recall the events in the novel whatsoever. DMC4 states that Vergil as Nelo Angelo was already dead, but that his death took place when he encountered Mundus at the end of DMC3 in which his body was destroyed and his soul put into a demonic construct. Gilver is not a demonic construct.

Here's what the files in each game say for Ebony and Ivory:

Devil May Cry, Guns — Ebony & Ivory: "Dante's hand-made guns."
Devil May Cry 2, Weapon File — Handguns: "Dante’s hand-made twin pistols. They fire bullets with magic power."
Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Guns File — Ebony & Ivory: "Dante's personally designed handguns made for rapid fire action."
Devil May Cry 4, Dante's Arms File — Ebony & Ivory: "Personally designed by Dante, these pistols are the weapons of choice when rapid-fire is a necessity."

The novel contradicts this simple fact: Dante made the guns himself. Someone else did not make them for him, he did not merely assemble them himself, he built them on his own and customized them as he needed. The second novel is also wrong about that.

Abigail was explicitly stated to have power that rivaled Mundus, the only Demon King mentioned thus far, and even if it wasn't Mundus and he rivaled Sparda or Argosax or whoever, that doesn't excuse Dante beating him with a one-second DT and no Sparda sword. The anime does not give a flying crap about the game it's set after. The specific quirk of Dante eating sundaes and whatever else does not make the novel "entirely" canon, simply whatever its referencing. For all intents and purposes the anime is the "official" debut of the various quirks. And again you completely ignored what I said; they never state that Dante is 'Tony Redgrave', simply that he is 'Tony', last name unknown. Never said, never clarified, as you say.

A retcon by its nature discounts the events that it's taking the place of in the order that it happened in, in order to fit whatever the writers want. You may not want to, but the writers did anyway.

I don't care about your point about reboots. I am not one of the people you'd best be making that point to. Take it up with someone who actually does bitch about DmC not fitting in with continuity and "wah wah NT ruined the canon".

Not caring about continuity or consistency is what causes retcons. The best retcon is actually a "revision" which doesn't majorly contradict events and expands the universe without raising more questions about what happened or reshape events to fit demand. "Japanese writing" is all over the previous games, hence why DMC3 seems to not care about the legend of Sparda when it's centered around the legend of Sparda (among other things). You're basically saying "the Japanese don't do retcons, they just don't recognize when the writing doesn't match up and fail to acknowledge that their plot is a mess", which is the least flattering point to make about the difference between Eastern and Western plots. If you're gonna say the Japanese are incompetent, just say so.

Re: Kamiya's quote: Wow. So he says that "You the fans are truly what decides the fate of the series so whatever you believe so be it. That being said no matter what we the creators say in the matter will not change your view", yet a page before you said that "the communities ideals are not part of the series, only the creators and those who work along side the creators decide what is part of it and what is not"? Talk about convenient. Either you go with Kamiya accepting that fans believe what they want (and you should too), or you don't. Pick one.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

...so what Kamiya commented on while he was still with Capcom right after DMC3 has no bearing, or did you miss that point entirely?

You know what, you're not listening at this point to anyone, so you know what? Like your claim about the novels that are canon...you don't exist.

 

[Judgement]

Morgan I'm not here to disagree with all of the very valid points you have listen but I specifically posted that quote out of a handful I had to in fact show it doesn't matter what anyone says if it is specified as official or not, there are too many differences throughout every game, book and lore so no one can take much of it as all true to the original storyline BUT if you want to be technical like that it still is seen that way for all of Capcom and Canon (since the quote I posted was not actually his words but those of the companies given to him to express in his choosing) even if you wish to deny it. Just as Kamiya said, there is so much inequalities it is up to us to decide even if what they say goes. So it has been decided by them and now it's just our opinions even if they make more sense.

The anime and Abigail part; all I have to say about that is Sid, the crappy little lesser demon, was controlling her powers so he didn't know how to use them right and just out right failed at them and that is why he was so weak compared to a DT from Dante.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Well, regarding Kamiya as well, he was saying "you fans can choose to accept it or not, doesn't change that this is what we set while working on this game"

 

[Morgan]

Which goes completely against the idea that a fan community's opinion about the novels not fitting in with 3 should be shot down and disregarded on the mere basis of it being fan opinion. What part of "You the fans are truly what decides the fate of the series so whatever you believe so be it" is hard to get?

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Actually, it pretty much says "we know there are inconsistencies due to different writers and changing of ideas, but this stuff still counts here. The novel still counts, even if some of you think otherwise now. You can accept it or not, but it is canon." So, it says exactly that; "Fan opinion doesn't matter, this still counts."

 

[Judgement]

Which goes completely against the idea that a fan community's opinion about the novels not fitting in with 3 should be shot down on the mere basis of it being fan opinion.

Well all I can say now is that is what they believed and saw as part of the series they created but due to so many differences they understand the fan community will have their doubts and they understand that and will let us decide the rest, just as everything you mentioned before. Everything you said had valid points and that is also what they were looking forward to, people recognizing the flaws in plot-line and distinguishing them. It doesn't change the fact that they made it, and they have the say in what they want to be part of it. I never said I agreed with their logic lol.

 

[Morgan]

So you two can't even get your facts straight on just what exactly Kamiya said. Either he said "fan opinion doesn't matter at all" or he recognizes that the story is heavily flawed in terms of continuity (I guess this makes him no longer Japanese) and is content letting fans settle it and gives them all validity in a Death of the Author way.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

So you two can't even get your facts straight on just what exactly Kamiya said. Either he said "fan opinion doesn't matter at all" or he recognizes that the story is heavily flawed in terms of continuity (I guess this makes him no longer Japanese) and is content letting fans settle it and gives them all validity in a Death of the Author way.

No, it's saying "we recognize the flaws due to so many different writers, but this is the canon." You haven't really listened, so whatever, you don't exist either now.