Was Style Switching a Good Idea?

[DarkSlayer54]

And I guess L1 is Devil Trigger.

So do we have to hold L2 and R2 to use the other weapons like DmC or just press them once to use it?

I can't think of a reason why you couldn't have both. If it was toggle, then tapping L2 would go into the L2 stance... and tapping R2 would switch to the R2 stance. Tapping R2 again goes back to the default stance.

More confusing than Hold, but hey... Hold isn't great for everyone. It hurts some players to continuously hold down buttons.

So if Lock-On is now toggle won't that eliminate directional inputs and make it more like DmC?

Nope - it's as it normally is, except you simply don't hold down the button. You tap it once, and you lock onto an enemy with directional inputs, you tap it again, and you go back into your limited moveset. It would be as though an invisible finger was holding down Lock-on for you.

This sounds a lot like the DmC system but dodge is now replaced with blocking. Doesnt that lock dodging behind a style. Before dodging was a separate function and style function tied to Trickster and even in DmC Dodging was giving its own button.

How do you perform teleport with this function?

Yeah, dodging would very much be locked behind L2. Not ideal for new players, but... not as bad as the style system, either. I see it as a middle ground between DmC and DMC4.

Teleporting would be done by L2 + Forward + Cross.

Yes but in DMC4 Gilgamesh Lock-On + Back + Attack/Triangle was Kick 13 and not a launcher. Cerberus in DMC3 didn't had a launcher on that input either.

I see. Well, if they change up rebellion to keep those behaviours consistent, then it wouldn't be too painful for me. Maybe Rebellion's launcher could just be put onto Back + Circle. Would still require some re-learning, since I'm used to DMC1... but consistency is everything for me. If I have to re-learn it, then it's a smooth experience if they set up "rules" to what I should expect. And heck, Back + Circle would kind of fit with DmC, with the launcher being on Circle.

Although, I would honestly prefer Triangle + Circle to be the state change input.

Isn't that the problem of DMC4 designing the game around Nero and his mechanics thus giving Dante set/limited tactics to defeat DMC4 enemies which functions more as puzzles that meant to be solved using set methods using the Devil Bringer as the key whereas DMC3 despite having a 4 style system designed enemies and bosses to work with all 4 styles in mind. Even pro DMC4 players who advocate for keeping the style system admits that the problem with DMC4 is the enemy design is more tailored to Nero versus Dante.

It sure seems like it, yeah. I don't believe the style / weapon switching is related to the quality of attacks / enemies as a result. It's merely a container that helps deliver those attacks.

So how would Release work? With Royal Guard being tied to a face button it granted it at least 3 Royal Guard actions: Guard, Release, and Ultimate/Dreadnaught/whatever 5 decides to do there. Would that be possible with this set up?

For sure. As long as you're locked on, you just input the direction along with R2 + Square, then you'll be able to perform Release and Dreadnaught.

This is a nice attempt but there is a lot functionally wrong with this set up or at the very least a lot of more advance (and a couple tech becomes less viable or possible. Will get to this later. Kind of busy at the moment?

The only thing I can agree with, is that there would definitely be techs that become less viable... but on the flip side, other strategies become more viable as well. Lock-on being toggle in particular would impact high-level play, but I'd argue that it helps a lot for casual play. Switching from Rebellion to Gilgamesh to Rebellion becomes more viable as well, from all skill ranges. It's merely a attack -> Hold R2 -> attack -> Release R2 -> Attack... instead of attack -> tap R2 -> attack -> tap R2 -> tap R2 -> attack.

I'll likely go to sleep. At the very latest, I would reply again tomorrow night, worst case scenario.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

Here's a test of a modified control scheme:

L2 + Square = Gunslinger
L2 + Cross = Trickster
L2 = Lucifer
R2 = Gilgamesh
R1 = Royale Guard
Default = Swordsmaster, Rebellion
DPad Down = Cycle Guns
DPad Up = Toggle Lock-on

I modified the inputs of DS4Windows, and so there are some limitations... but overall it's a good proof of concept, if you want to take it as that. Dark Slayer wasn't bound to anything, and whenever you see it selected then that's just the game dropping inputs and desyncing from what the script expects. Likewise, dropped inputs also make it easy for the weapons to desync as well, expecially since the weapon cycling is so slow.

I played through that mission 3 times to get a rough idea of how Dante plays, and I uploaded the third recording.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Excellent work, Darkslayer.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I can't think of a reason why you couldn't have both. If it was toggle, then tapping L2 would go into the L2 stance... and tapping R2 would switch to the R2 stance. Tapping R2 again goes back to the default stance.

More confusing than Hold, but hey... Hold isn't great for everyone. It hurts some players to continuously hold down buttons.

It is very confusing since you want have to Lock-On toggle too. So you're players will have to keep toggling 3 different functions especially when styles and (basic) abilities like dodging and jumping are locked behind these toggle functions and lets not forget you want to have them cycle through weapons too using the D-pad. Its not like Lock-On is just a basic lock-on it has moves tied behind it too. So its basically a style in of itself you have to keep toggling on and on. Honestly just having Lock-On be hold just be way better. It takes the mental taxing off of the fact you need to switch

Nope - it's as it normally is, except you simply don't hold down the button. You tap it once, and you lock onto an enemy with directional inputs, you tap it again, and you go back into your limited moveset. It would be as though an invisible finger was holding down Lock-on for you.

Yeah, dodging would very much be locked behind L2. Not ideal for new players, but... not as bad as the style system, either. I see it as a middle ground between DmC and DMC4.

Teleporting would be done by L2 + Forward + Cross.

Is Lock-On required to teleport? Dante only teleports with Trickster when locked on. It allows players to freely dash in any direction allowing for good evasive maneuvers. While the purpose of teleporting is to close gap very quickly.

I see. Well, if they change up rebellion to keep those behaviours consistent, then it wouldn't be too painful for me. Maybe Rebellion's launcher could just be put onto Back + Circle. Would still require some re-learning, since I'm used to DMC1... but consistency is everything for me. If I have to re-learn it, then it's a smooth experience if they set up "rules" to what I should expect. And heck, Back + Circle would kind of fit with DmC, with the launcher being on Circle.

Although, I would honestly prefer Triangle + Circle to be the state change input.

Hmmm I don't see that alternative much better. We're used to performing launchers so where used to performing the back + triangle input and now with Nero and Cavaliere having directional inputs in the air we are more conditioned to using that input then Triangle + Circle. Plus like I said Cerberus in DMC3 and Gilgamesh in DMC4 didn't have launchers in its back + triangle input so this isn't the first time in the series for 1 weapon to differ from the norm. Not every weapon in past DMC games operated exactly the same and besides there is a training mode now. You can like you know practice until you get the action down.

It sure seems like it, yeah. I don't believe the style / weapon switching is related to the quality of attacks / enemies as a result. It's merely a container that helps deliver those attacks.

I don't get this. The quality of attacks are determined by how the attack itself is designed. Enemies are designed around a character's moveset that is basic game design. Bayonetta's enemies are far more aggressive and fast paced and break attacks because your meant to dodge/parry and utilize witch time to gain any combos out. DMC4 enemies are designed to be more ranged and have gimmicks that utilize the Buster. And the video in the OP even states the enemies and bosses in DMC3 (minus the fallen) are designed so all Styles are equally viable options as well as elemental weaknesses so certain weapons are more adventageous rather than necessary. DmC has color coded enemies and enemies you can only launch/affect with certain weapons under certain conditions because you have access to all weapons at all times.

DMC4's problem was the fact it was half finished game where all the enemies and bosses where designed around Nero and his mechanics and not Dante. So the game was more of a hassle to play as Dante when you have enemies like the Gladious Blades, Faust, Mephisto, Blitz, the goddamn fish blades, the Chimera Seeds, and etc which required specific strategies to beat them.

DMC5 seems to be alleviating that issue by having more general enemy designs that work with Nero and Dante (+ V).

For sure. As long as you're locked on, you just input the direction along with R2 + Square, then you'll be able to perform Release and Dreadnaught.

Just to clarify Lock-On and using Royal Guard style requires to toggle to those modes right?

The only thing I can agree with, is that there would definitely be techs that become less viable... but on the flip side, other strategies become more viable as well. Lock-on being toggle in particular would impact high-level play, but I'd argue that it helps a lot for casual play. Switching from Rebellion to Gilgamesh to Rebellion becomes more viable as well, from all skill ranges. It's merely a attack -> Hold R2 -> attack -> Release R2 -> Attack... instead of attack -> tap R2 -> attack -> tap R2 -> tap R2 -> attack.

I'll likely go to sleep. At the very latest, I would reply again tomorrow night, worst case scenario.

Other strategies such as?

Hey you know what works for casual play? Just using Rebellion and Gilgamesh which we can do now in DMC5.

This isn't a very ideal system if it hinders one party over the other. Yeah you make weapon cycling 6 melee weapons easier but you also...

Jump Cancelling will either nearly be impossible or even more difficult to pull off using L2 weapons since you cant jump while in L2 mode.

Have basic dodging and jumping tied to styles/modes (even DmC knew better than that).

In the context of DMC4 if Darkslayer be tied to Triangle + Circle how do you perform Yamato's basic combo and Aerial Rave?

 

[DarkSlayer54]

It is very confusing since you want have to Lock-On toggle too. So you're players will have to keep toggling 3 different functions especially when styles and (basic) abilities like dodging and jumping are locked behind these toggle functions and lets not forget you want to have them cycle through weapons too using the D-pad. Its not like Lock-On is just a basic lock-on it has moves tied behind it too. So its basically a style in of itself you have to keep toggling on and on. Honestly just having Lock-On be hold just be way better. It takes the mental taxing off of the fact you need to switch

I didn't find it confusing at all. It was actually the opposite for me - a toggle lock-on made the experience much less cognitively taxing. You just toggle it before a fight, and I just forget about it.

So really, it's an input I was able to eliminate during engagements.

Is Lock-On required to teleport? Dante only teleports with Trickster when locked on. It allows players to freely dash in any direction allowing for good evasive maneuvers. While the purpose of teleporting is to close gap very quickly.

You can still dash left, right, and backwards. Not to mention, you can jump, as well as roll left / right.

Hmmm I don't see that alternative much better. We're used to performing launchers so where used to performing the back + triangle input and now with Nero and Cavaliere having directional inputs in the air we are more conditioned to using that input then Triangle + Circle. Plus like I said Cerberus in DMC3 and Gilgamesh in DMC4 didn't have launchers in its back + triangle input so this isn't the first time in the series for 1 weapon to differ from the norm. Not every weapon in past DMC games operated exactly the same and besides there is a training mode now.

DMC3 and DMC4 were easily the worst installments in the series for me. I can't exactly get on board with "they did it, so it's okay".

DMC1 had launchers for both Alastor and Ifrit, and they kept it consistent with Triangle + Back. Gilgamesh also has a launcher, and I would have found it less confusing if it was also set to Triangle + Back.

You can like you know practice until you get the action down

I can literally say the exact same thing for any other control scheme.

I don't get this. The quality of attacks are determined by how the attack itself is designed. Enemies are designed around a character's moveset that is basic game design. Bayonetta's enemies are far more aggressive and fast paced and break attacks because your meant to dodge/parry and utilize witch time to gain any combos out. DMC4 enemies are designed to be more ranged and have gimmicks that utilize the Buster. And the video in the OP even states the enemies and bosses in DMC3 (minus the fallen) are designed so all Styles are equally viable options as well as elemental weaknesses so certain weapons are more adventageous rather than necessary. DmC has color coded enemies and enemies you can only launch/affect with certain weapons under certain conditions because you have access to all weapons at all times.

DMC4's problem was the fact it was half finished game where all the enemies and bosses where designed around Nero and his mechanics and not Dante. So the game was more of a hassle to play as Dante when you have enemies like the Gladious Blades, Faust, Mephisto, Blitz, the goddamn fish blades, the Chimera Seeds, and etc which required specific strategies to beat them.

A new control scheme has nothing to do with the design of the attacks or enemy designs. It's literally just a container for said move sets, that's all.

Just to clarify Lock-On and using Royal Guard style requires to toggle to those modes right?

Yup, naturally. There's no such thing as a backwards input without a lock-on... at least, not that I can think of. Maybe if the analog stick direction is always relative to the camera direction? Forward always being forward. Can't imagine that going well.

Other strategies such as?

Anything that would have required a style switch can be done easier.

Hey you know what works for casual play? Just using Rebellion and Gilgamesh which we can do now in DMC5.

You could do that with my suggested system as well.

Jump Cancelling will either nearly be impossible or even more difficult to pull off using L2 weapons since you cant jump while in L2 mode.

You could make it so that L2 + Cross is Trickster, only when a directional input is provided. It's a non-issue.

Have basic dodging and jumping tied to styles/modes (even DmC knew better than that).

The fact that you're referring to it as "basic dodging" means that I'm on the right track.

DMC4 has one entire style devoted to movement (Trickster). With my suggested system, you still have jumping as well as roll dodging ( the basic movement ). The only thing that's changed, is that Trickster is easier to perform. That's it.

In the context of DMC4 if Darkslayer be tied to Triangle + Circle how do you perform Yamato's basic combo and Aerial Rave?

You just mash Triangle + Circle. Not ideal, but that whole style from the get-go wasn't ideal.

 

[Goldsickle]

Theoretically, I think it's possible to compact Dash + signature attacks.

R1 or R2 could be dash.
Assuming R1 is dash, then to perform Stinger, you press R1 + Any direction + Sword.

A lot of the signature moves, like Stinger, Streak, Reverb Shock and Jet-Stream always involves Dante charging forward, so dashing into a Stinger or Jet Stream would feel very natural.

 

[BrawlMan]

Yes. I am not the best with style switching, but I have seen many a creative videos. Not to mention, it lead to the style switch mod on emulated versions of DMC3. So, no complaints here.

>

 

[Dio Brando]

honestly the only thing that i have a problem with in terms of style switching is dante seems broken ( wich means overpowered.) in dmc3 it was intense because you were limited to one style and were forced for that style to become your best style you could focus in either attack or defense and you didnt have to worry about having to swritch styles mid combo you had to use what you have to think outside the box. but i love style switching it makes it more complexed since iv been playing dmc for years.