Was Style Switching a Good Idea?

[Demi-fiend]

Spoiler: Styles

Triangle/Y = Melee

Circle/B = Swordmaster

Square/X = Ranged/Gunslinger (Press D-Pad Down to switch between Ranged and Gunslinger.)

X/A = Jump
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R1/Right Bumper = Lock-on (There should be a hold or toggle option in the menu by now.)

R2/Right Trigger = DT (It looks like DT Distortion's gone, so there's no need to map it to L1 anymore. Even if it wasn't, it's not too big of a hassle to hold one of Balrog's punches and time it with R2/RT.)

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L1/Left Bumper = Trickster

L2/Left Trigger = Royalguard (If anyone can perform Ex-Act on a regular basis, then it should be no problem for RG to be remapped to this button.)

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D-Pad Up= Switch Ranged

D-Pad Left/Right = Switch Melee

D-Pad Down = Toggle Ranged/Gunslinger

Felix Allmark in the comment section said:

Spoiler

To the esteemed experienced pro level dante players out there.

This video is talking about game design. Its true that there are ways to play dante as how it is in DMC4 but talking about design choices doesnt make you a scrub. There is a different between talking about designing the environment, enemy placement and its relation to the character's toolbox than just about ranting how one is suck at playing things.

And besides, not everyone are as good as you are probably. There are casual gamers that do find dante's level designs troublesome.

Just chill and be open to opinions kay.

 

[Carlos]

Yes it was. Initially, you had to press start just to change weapons.

Ninja Gaiden didn't adapt by adding this, it stayed the same way.

 

[DarkSlayerVergil]

In my honest opinion not really as most if not all of Dante style locked moves could be integrated into his base moveset.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

For me, the style system and weapon switching are a mess. It's just so difficult to keep track of the style and weapon selection mid-combo, let alone the mechanical complexity of it.

DMC4 could have easily used a variant of DmC's control scheme, so I just see it as needless complexity.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

HA, we know my thoughts on this already. It worked at the time, but it really shouldn't still work that way.

 

[Stylish Nero]

 

[DarkSlayer54]

"Is jump cancelling even going to be necessary?"

I sure as heck hope not. That was easily the best thing DmC changed - you can stay in the air purely with aerial attacks alone.

 

[Goldsickle]

That was easily the best thing DmC changed - you can stay in the air purely with aerial attacks alone.

Bayonetta also made air-combos easy, because a lot of the long ground combos can be done on air.
Normally, action games will make it so that the ground and air attacks are different.

 

[DDutchguy]

I think it depends on what kind of player you are whether Style Switching is a good thing or not.

For very long-term players:
Generally, I feel like for people that play DMC4 for a very long period of time (at least a couple hundred hours just in Dante), style switching is one of the best things about the game. DMC4 Dante is one of the most complicated characters to play as in any game pretty much because of style switching. It:
- Gives you a very large moveset
- Allows you to tackle any situation at any time
- Gives combo opportunities that cannot be found in any other game (combining style switching with jump canceling)
- Can keep you playing for an extremely long time because of its complexity
Of course I can't speak for everyone, but generally, I think players that can sink a lot of hours into DMC4 Dante want to do so for style switching alone.

For a non-very-long-term-player like me:
For me personally, style switching feels like a burden. It requires legitimate training to switch styles and is extremely difficult to master. The problem for me is that if I'm not actively switching styles, Dante is very boring to play for me. If I'm just trying to go through the levels and not going for (again, in my opinion) unnecessarily fancy combos, I'm just going to stick with very basic attack that I can go through Dante Must Die mode with just fine. Style switching is a burden because for me, it's a large barrier preventing me from having fun with DMC4 Dante.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

- Gives you a very large moveset
- Allows you to tackle any situation at any time
- Gives combo opportunities that cannot be found in any other game (combining style switching with jump canceling)
- Can keep you playing for an extremely long time because of its complexity

I think the only thing i can agree with there is the complexity.

Sure, in theory the style system can have a ton of stuff shoe horned in... But with DMC4, Dante only has 3 weapons, and the 4 styles only modify 1 single button.

 

[Innsmouth]

I still think style system works perfectly fine, since it allows to modify different moves. And with easy switching between styles, I dunno where the problem lies. I love game that give you possiblity to experiment without beating you for it. So I really enjoy style system. But than again. Haters gonna hate.

 

[Goldsickle]

It's not good for muscle memory and in the heat of battle, it's easy to lose track of what weapon/Style you're currently equipped.

Capcom kinda acknowledges this issue, which is why they made it so that you can carry only 1-2 weapons with Dante this time around, instead of hoarding 3-4 at a time, complicating toggling.
But they still left in the Style system...

It's not just the Style but it's the lock-on-dependency of the moves, where every little thing needs you to lock-on and slow down.
You press R1 and you will have no clue who you will be locked on to.
If you locked on to a super-fast enemy hovering around the field, instead of the intended target right in front of you, that enemy is going to "drag around" your lock-on and focus, making you lose your bearing in the battlefield.
The few seconds you take to "toggle lock-on" until you get the right enemy is all it takes for an enemy to get a free hit at you.

DmC's combat system was a good reboot of the whole mess.
I wish they'd implement more of DmC's mechanics, more than just "slow motion at the last enemy".

Japanese developers are good at coming up creative ideas for a game but they always fall flat with the controls.
Devil May Cry started with "press Triangle to Jump" and they're still building up their control scheme around the "rejected Resident Evil 4 controls" up to this day.


EDIT: How cute, the Balrog weapon has a "Kick Mode" and "Blow Mode", which gives you another layer of "mode change" to keep track of.

 

[DarkSlayerVergil]

It's not good for muscle memory and in the heat of battle, it's easy to lose track of what weapon/Style you're currently equipped.

Capcom kinda acknowledges this issue, which is why they made it so that you can carry only 1-2 weapons with Dante this time around, instead of hoarding 3-4 at a time, complicating toggling.
But they still left in the Style system...

It's not just the Style but it's the lock-on-dependency of the moves, where every little thing needs you to lock-on and slow down.
You press R1 and you will have no clue who you will be locked on to.
If you locked on to a super-fast enemy hovering around the field, instead of the intended target right in front of you, that enemy is going to "drag around" your lock-on and focus, making you lose your bearing in the battlefield.
The few seconds you take to "toggle lock-on" until you get the right enemy is all it takes for an enemy to get a free hit at you.

DmC's combat system was a good reboot of the whole mess.
I wish they'd implement more of DmC's mechanics, more than just "slow motion at the last enemy".

Japanese developers are good at coming up creative ideas for a game but they always fall flat with the controls.
Devil May Cry started with "press Triangle to Jump" and they're still building up their control scheme around the "rejected Resident Evil 4 controls" up to this day.


EDIT: How cute, the Balrog weapon has a "Kick Mode" and "Blow Mode", which gives you another layer of "mode change" to keep track of.

Like integrating all of Dante styles into his moveset wouldn't even be all that hard and would actually feel organic to the character himself.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I think the only thing i can agree with there is the complexity.

Sure, in theory the style system can have a ton of stuff shoe horned in... But with DMC4, Dante only has 3 weapons, and the 4 styles only modify 1 single button.

Isn't that the fault of DMC4's underdevelopment. DMC5 has 4 years (the most of any game in the series) in development and Itsuno decided to keep the Style System but now Dante is granted a larger set of arsenal than DMC4.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

Isn't that the fault of DMC4's underdevelopment. DMC5 has 4 years (the most of any game in the series) in development and Itsuno decided to keep the Style System but now Dante is granted a larger set of arsenal than DMC4.

I'm not following DMC5 too closely, but the style system is still exactly the same, isn't it? It merely modifies the behaviour of Circle?

From a screenshot I saw, the maximum number of weapons at once will be 4, unless they'll increase it. Whereas DmC could comfortably sit at 5 weapons, so it still seems to be behind.

... not to mention, cycling between 4 weapons sounds like hell.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I'm not following DMC5 too closely, but the style system is still exactly the same, isn't it? It merely modifies the behaviour of Circle?

From a screenshot I saw, the maximum number of weapons at once will be 4, unless they'll increase it. Whereas DmC could comfortably sit at 5 weapons, so it still seems to be behind.

... not to mention, cycling between 4 weapons sounds like hell.

Number count of weapons really don't matter if the weapons have smaller movepools which covers far less uses. Also you left out Guns. DmC Dante had 3 guns while DMC5 Dante so far has 4 guns so 4 melee weapons and 4 guns equal to the same amount of weapons as DmC. Not to count to the fact Balrog basically counts as 2 weapons (its Blow Mode is just a more expanded Eryx/Ifrit and its Kick Mode is a more expanded Vergil's Beowulf).

The game hasn't shown off everything so far and we have custom weapon loadout so they can go above the maximum weapon hold limit if they want to. (Nero has 8 Breakers....12 if you count the DLC but he can only hold 4 at a time).

Plus with DmC's initial release Dante was the only playable character with 8 weapons and Vergil was added later in as DLC (and his gameplay system didn't vary from Dante's much). DMC5 has 3 playable characters with drastically different playstyles from the get go and the fact Matt Walker stated that there are some missions where you can choose which character you can play as. Just with Nero and Dante alone there are more gameplay options than DmC even if you count the DE.

Also you can determine how many weapons you can set at anytime in any order so you can have 2 or go all the way up to 4 or mix up the number count like 3 guns and 2 melee weapons.

While DmC does still have the highest on the fly weapon count in any action game I can think of and that is quite the good feat. There is a thing of quality versus quantity if you can get the same amount of mileage out of 3 weapons versus 5 it doesn't matter much and the fact moves that used to be present in certain weapons had to be allocated to other weapons like Round Trip and Prop/Shredder thus giving that weapon a smaller move-pool than its previous version so therefore that version of that weapon covers less base than its previous version.

DmC still has the honor of saying you can perform a combo using 8 different weapons at once but visual DMC5 could emphasize that same feeling since you have weapons like Cerberus, Balrog, and Cavaliere that can change forms and be another weapon that occupy that same slot.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

Number count of weapons really don't matter if the weapons have smaller movepools which covers far less uses.

True, but we're not talking about a smaller move pool. All the DMC4 moves could be fit into just two styles. I don't see why the same wouldn't be true for DMC5.

Also you left out Guns. DmC Dante had 3 guns while DMC5 Dante so far has 4 guns so 4 melee weapons and 4 guns equal to the same amount of weapons as DmC.

There's no reason you couldn't bump up the number of guns with a 2-style system. When I say "weapons", I'm just talking about devil arms (had to google what DMC calls them).

Not to count to the fact Balrog basically counts as 2 weapons (its Blow Mode is just a more expanded Eryx/Ifrit and its Kick Mode is a more expanded Vergil's Beowulf).

Without knowing any details about the alt. weapon modes, that just seems like even more needless complexity thrown in. Hopefully I'm wrong, and it proves to be equally as complex as weapon switching in DmC, but we'll see.

Plus with DmC's initial release Dante was the only playable character with 8 weapons and Vergil was added later in as DLC (and his gameplay system didn't vary from Dante's much). DMC5 has 3 playable characters with drastically different playstyles from the get go and the fact Matt Walker stated that there are some missions where you can choose which character you can play as. Just with Nero and Dante alone there are more gameplay options than DmC even if you count the DE.

I don't see that as relevant. More characters doesn't impact Dante's complexity, or the complexity of his style system / weapon switching

Also you can determine how many weapons you can set at anytime in any order so you can have 2 or go all the way up to 4 or mix up the number count like 3 guns and 2 melee weapons.

I can easily imagine a 6-slot weapon system. 2 slots on L2, 2 slots on default, and 2 slots on R2. It's up to you whether you want to equip all 6 at the same time, or restrict yourself to just 2-3... but the key difference, is that it scales up incredibly well in comparison to the weapon cycle system. Any weapon is at most 2 inputs away, with 6 total weapons you can use at once.

While DmC does still have the highest on the fly weapon count in any action game I can think of and that is quite the good feat. There is a thing of quality versus quantity if you can get the same amount of mileage out of 3 weapons versus 5 it doesn't matter much and the fact moves that used to be present in certain weapons had to be allocated to other weapons like Round Trip and Prop/Shredder thus giving that weapon a smaller move-pool than its previous version so therefore that version of that weapon covers less base than its previous version.

That's more an issue with DmC's lack of a lock-on, and their poor utilization of the Circle button. You can fit DMC4's control scheme into a 2-style system, with a couple of buttons to spare.

 

[Stylish Nero]

True, but we're not talking about a smaller move pool. All the DMC4 moves could be fit into just two styles. I don't see why the same wouldn't be true for DMC5.

Debatable. If it was as easily as possible you guys claim it is wouldn't Itsuno and his combat designers with decades worth of experience in action and fighting games have tried it already or any other action game would've attempted it. Even the video in the OP believes there is no effective way to streamline DMC4 Dante's controls in a way that keeps the possibilities present (and keep the game balanced) while maintaining DMC4 high skill appeal. Dante will have to operate on a completely new control scheme to get the same mileage as the DMC4 style system. Any other control scheme you can think of will probably complicate another aspect of the game. You won't know if it works unless you played that control scheme. So mental gymnastics and hypothetics won't do much good.

There's no reason you couldn't bump up the number of guns with a 2-style system. When I say "weapons", I'm just talking about devil arms (had to google what DMC calls them).

Regardless with Balrog it still keeps DMC5 Dante weapon count as 5 since it functions as 2 weapons (with each form still having more moves than the average DmC weapon).

Without knowing any details about the alt. weapon modes, that just seems like even more needless complexity thrown in. Hopefully I'm wrong, and it proves to be equally as complex as weapon switching in DmC, but we'll see.

For now we know Balrog only changes modes by performing the usual motion for Launchers (Lock On + Back + Attack). It sounds unorthodox but if you're used to performing launchers it should be second nature once you change your mindset when using Balrog that the typical launcher changes stances (like stance based character in Tekken where an input for another character would be offensive this is a different purpose). Plus now we have aerial directional input moves or a bigger emphasis on it (Nero's Split is now Lock-On + Back + Attack and has a new move on Lock-On + Forward + Attack as well as Cavaliere having an aerial launcher and Cavaliere R because money having its own aerial Stinger....wish Rebellion/Sparda had an aerial Stinger) so performing those inputs to change stances. Cerberus don't know yet and Cavaliere the chainsaws are tied to the basic attack while the Motorcycle is tied to the Style button in SwordMaster and Cavaliere has a lot of moves for both forms

I don't see that as relevant. More characters doesn't impact Dante's complexity, or the complexity of his style system / weapon switching

We weren't arguing complexity we are arguing weapon count and resources. Resources for DmC are spent on just Dante and his 8 weapons and base skills while DMC5 has Dante which has 8 (so far confirmed) weapons (each possessing movesets that basically doubles most of DmC's weapons), Nero and his Red Queen, 8 Breakers, and Blue Rose and whatever V is going to use. While there are some missions tied to specific characters the 3 make the whole DMC5 combat system that all the enemies and bosses must follow thus each character is just another set of tools at a player disposal. A mark of a good or great action game isn't tied to how much weapons you can use at once on the fly but how those weapons and its moveset are tailored to game as well as player expression. To this day Ninja Gaiden Black, DMC3, and Bayonetta are herald as the best of the genre in the community despite those games not allowing a high on the fly weapon hold count. A high on the fly weapon count mean each weapon or most of the weapons don't have much to stand on their own.

I can easily imagine a 6-slot weapon system. 2 slots on L2, 2 slots on default, and 2 slots on R2. It's up to you whether you want to equip all 6 at the same time, or restrict yourself to just 2-3... but the key difference, is that it scales up incredibly well in comparison to the weapon cycle system. Any weapon is at most 2 inputs away, with 6 total weapons you can use at once.

This is a rather puzzling weapon cycling system. How do you change your weapon on default? Does this count guns as one of those 3 options? How do you change between the 3 weapon types? How do you cycle between each weapon set?

That's more an issue with DmC's lack of a lock-on, and their poor utilization of the Circle button. You can fit DMC4's control scheme into a 2-style system, with a couple of buttons to spare.

Will you really be able to maintain all the mechanics present in DMC4 with just 2 styles?

 

[DarkSlayer54]

Debatable. If it was as easily as possible you guys claim it is wouldn't Itsuno and his combat designers with decades worth of experience in action and fighting games have tried it already or any other action game would've attempted it. Even the video in the OP believes there is no effective way to streamline DMC4 Dante's controls in a way that keeps the possibilities present (and keep the game balanced) while maintaining DMC4 high skill appeal. Dante will have to operate on a completely new control scheme to get the same mileage as the DMC4 style system. Any other control scheme you can think of will probably complicate another aspect of the game. You won't know if it works unless you played that control scheme. So mental gymnastics and hypothetics won't do much good.

There's really not much to it.

L2 + Cross = Trickster
L2 + Square = Gunslinger
L2 = Lucifer
Default = Rebellion, Swordsmaster
R2 = Gilgamesh
R1 = Royal Guard
D-Pad Up = Lock-on (Toggle)
Triangle + Circle = Dark Slayer

And like that... you've just simplified the style system. It does indeed have it's own drawbacks, as with literally any solution... but I'd argue the drawbacks are far smaller in comparison to the 4-style system.

For now we know Balrog only changes modes by performing the usual motion for Launchers (Lock On + Back + Attack). It sounds unorthodox but if you're used to performing launchers it should be second nature once you change your mindset when using Balrog that the typical launcher changes stances (like stance based character in Tekken where an input for another character would be offensive this is a different purpose). Plus now we have aerial directional input moves or a bigger emphasis on it (Nero's Split is now Lock-On + Back + Attack and has a new move on Lock-On + Forward + Attack as well as Cavaliere having an aerial launcher and Cavaliere R because money having its own aerial Stinger....wish Rebellion/Sparda had an aerial Stinger) so performing those inputs to change stances. Cerberus don't know yet and Cavaliere the chainsaws are tied to the basic attack while the Motorcycle is tied to the Style button in SwordMaster and Cavaliere has a lot of moves for both forms

I know I'll dislike that a ton. If the launcher is used to transform it, then... my gosh, it'll be incredibly annoying to launch with Rebellion and then the Ifrit version having a completely different input for the equivalent move. More needless complexity right there. Unless of course, they actually changed Rebellion's moveset so that Back + Triangle is no longer the launcher... then, I would still find it odd, but the transition would at least be easier.

We weren't arguing complexity we are arguing weapon count and resources. Resources for DmC are spent on just Dante and his 8 weapons and base skills while DMC5 has Dante which has 8 (so far confirmed) weapons (each possessing movesets that basically doubles most of DmC's weapons), Nero and his Red Queen, 8 Breakers, and Blue Rose and whatever V is going to use. While there are some missions tied to specific characters the 3 make the whole DMC5 combat system that all the enemies and bosses must follow thus each character is just another set of tools at a player disposal. A mark of a good or great action game isn't tied to how much weapons you can use at once on the fly but how those weapons and its moveset are tailored to game as well as player expression. To this day Ninja Gaiden Black, DMC3, and Bayonetta are herald as the best of the genre in the community despite those games not allowing a high on the fly weapon hold count. A high on the fly weapon count mean each weapon or most of the weapons don't have much to stand on their own.

I'm arguing about the complexity of the style / weapon cycle system, and it's poor impact on my experience... and not to mention, how much better my experience would be with a 2-style system.

How the moves interact with the enemies / world as well as impacting the dynamics of combat is a whole other can of worms. You can have a variant of the DmC control scheme, with well thought out moves and enemy designs.

This is a rather puzzling weapon cycling system. How do you change your weapon on default? Does this count guns as one of those 3 options? How do you change between the 3 weapon types? How do you cycle between each weapon set?

D-pad Left = Cycle L2 weapon slot
D-Pad Up = Cycle default weapon slot
D-Pad Right = Cycle R2 weapon slot
D-Pad Down = Cycle Fire Arm weapon slot

R1 reverting back to Lock-on, either hold or toggle. R2 + Square being Royale Guard.

Will you really be able to maintain all the mechanics present in DMC4 with just 2 styles?

Definitely. The suggestion I made is but one of countless variants that you could use to reduce them to just 2 styles. Or now that I think of it, 3 styles... since the default stance would technically be it's own style.

 

[Stylish Nero]

There's really not much to it.

L2 + Cross = Trickster
L2 + Square = Gunslinger
L2 = Lucifer
Default = Rebellion, Swordsmaster
R2 = Gilgamesh
R1 = Royal Guard
D-Pad Up = Lock-on (Toggle)
Triangle + Circle = Dark Slayer

And like that... you've just simplified the style system. It does indeed have it's own drawbacks, as with literally any solution... but I'd argue the drawbacks are far smaller in comparison to the 4-style system.

And I guess L1 is Devil Trigger.

So do we have to hold L2 and R2 to use the other weapons like DmC or just press them once to use it?

So if Lock-On is now toggle won't that eliminate directional inputs and make it more like DmC?

This sounds a lot like the DmC system but dodge is now replaced with blocking. Doesnt that lock dodging behind a style. Before dodging was a separate function and style function tied to Trickster and even in DmC Dodging was giving its own button.

How do you perform teleport with this function?

I know I'll dislike that a ton. If the launcher is used to transform it, then... my gosh, it'll be incredibly annoying to launch with Rebellion and then the Ifrit version having a completely different input for the equivalent move. More needless complexity right there. Unless of course, they actually changed Rebellion's moveset so that Back + Triangle is no longer the launcher... then, I would still find it odd, but the transition would at least be easier.

Yes but in DMC4 Gilgamesh Lock-On + Back + Attack/Triangle was Kick 13 and not a launcher. Cerberus in DMC3 didn't had a launcher on that input either.

I'm arguing about the complexity of the style / weapon cycle system, and it's poor impact on my experience... and not to mention, how much better my experience would be with a 2-style system.

How the moves interact with the enemies / world as well as impacting the dynamics of combat is a whole other can of worms. You can have a variant of the DmC control scheme, with well thought out moves and enemy designs.

Isn't that the problem of DMC4 designing the game around Nero and his mechanics thus giving Dante set/limited tactics to defeat DMC4 enemies which functions more as puzzles that meant to be solved using set methods using the Devil Bringer as the key whereas DMC3 despite having a 4 style system designed enemies and bosses to work with all 4 styles in mind. Even pro DMC4 players who advocate for keeping the style system admits that the problem with DMC4 is the enemy design is more tailored to Nero versus Dante.

D-pad Left = Cycle L2 weapon slot
D-Pad Up = Cycle default weapon slot
D-Pad Right = Cycle R2 weapon slot
D-Pad Down = Cycle Fire Arm weapon slot

R1 reverting back to Lock-on, either hold or toggle. R2 + Square being Royale Guard.

So how would Release work? With Royal Guard being tied to a face button it granted it at least 3 Royal Guard actions: Guard, Release, and Ultimate/Dreadnaught/whatever 5 decides to do there. Would that be possible with this set up?

Definitely. The suggestion I made is but one of countless variants that you could use to reduce them to just 2 styles. Or now that I think of it, 3 styles... since the default stance would technically be it's own style.

This is a nice attempt but there is a lot functionally wrong with this set up or at the very least a lot of more advance (and a couple tech becomes less viable or possible. Will get to this later. Kind of busy at the moment?