DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
That's because you need to dodge at the right time. If the player is bad at dodging you can't blame the game for that. Just practice dodging.
So, photorealism...
- Thread starter Innsmouth
- Start date
Innsmouth
Sleeping DMC Fan
Erm, it has nothing to do with dodging. It's has more to do with simple input lag. Because when I press the button I expect character to react and not just show how uber realistic his moves are.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
It's difficult to take your criticism of God of War seriously when it seems you put the game down fairly early on. Turning is entirely dependent on your camera speed (which I turned up), and there's a 180 turn key too, plus the lock-on that keeps things in view. While the combat starts out slow, boy howdy does it ramp up. The last Valkyrie battle in particular is some of the most white-knuckle combat you can experience.
God of War is slower and a bit more methodical, but it's leagues ahead of something like Dark Souls, and feels a helluva lot like a God of War game, just with the camera over the shoulder. It sucks you fell off of it so early, you may have liked it when they finally give you enough stuff to work with.
It's interesting to see a divide in action game tastes based around both twitch gameplay and methodical gameplay; they provide different challenges, but can be just as exciting when you're in the thick of it.
On the photorealism - it seems like they are just mentioning that they don't want the animations to look janky as hell because of the new style they're using. Although I wonder how many people would really care for basic animation canceling on photorealistic models, like...it's still a game, we know what we're getting into
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
More on topic - I think we can even see a bit of how they are handling getting actions in without canceling out of animations. If you look at 1:55 of the announcement trailer and slow the video down, when Nero avoids the giant fireball, he shoots, but then rolls with the Blue Rose is still in his hand, pointing to the enemy when he comes out of the roll. There's also a curiosity at 1:33 with Nero still holding the Red Queen in his hand while running at the enemy he uses the Time Stop ability on.
I don't know if they'll go for the gusto and literally make transitional animations for every single possible action from every other kind, but...well...that'd be a crazy attention to detail.
However, there's also a curiosity that watching the trailer in slow-motion, they made A LOT of frame cuts between different actions, sometimes it was a slightly different camera angle, but the very first bit of gameplay we see of Nero doing that "shock push" is the same camera angle, but they just cut some frames between him putting on that arm, and then doing the action. At first I thought it was just on Nero himself, but no the enemies and the background skips too. Perhaps they really are going for full transitional animations and they don't have a lot of them done yet.
Should look at the other little interview one.
I don't know if they'll go for the gusto and literally make transitional animations for every single possible action from every other kind, but...well...that'd be a crazy attention to detail.
However, there's also a curiosity that watching the trailer in slow-motion, they made A LOT of frame cuts between different actions, sometimes it was a slightly different camera angle, but the very first bit of gameplay we see of Nero doing that "shock push" is the same camera angle, but they just cut some frames between him putting on that arm, and then doing the action. At first I thought it was just on Nero himself, but no the enemies and the background skips too. Perhaps they really are going for full transitional animations and they don't have a lot of them done yet.
Should look at the other little interview one.
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Innsmouth
Sleeping DMC Fan
Here's a thing, I literally finished GoW last sunday on normal difficulty :wink:.It's difficult to take your criticism of God of War seriously when it seems you put the game down fairly early on. Turning is entirely dependent on your camera speed (which I turned up), and there's a 180 turn key too, plus the lock-on that keeps things in view. While the combat starts out slow, boy howdy does it ramp up. The last Valkyrie battle in particular is some of the most white-knuckle combat you can experience.
God of War is slower and a bit more methodical, but it's leagues ahead of something like Dark Souls, and feels a helluva lot like a God of War game, just with the camera over the shoulder. It sucks you fell off of it so early, you may have liked it when they finally give you enough stuff to work with.
It's interesting to see a divide in action game tastes based around both twitch gameplay and methodical gameplay; they provide different challenges, but can be just as exciting when you're in the thick of it.
On the photorealism - it seems like they are just mentioning that they don't want the animations to look janky as hell because of the new style they're using. Although I wonder how many people would really care for basic animation canceling on photorealistic models, like...it's still a game, we know what we're getting into
New GoW has nothing to do with original GoW games. There isn't much methodical combat in new GoW. It's pretty much very low tier buttonmasher with some very unwelcome clunky RPG elements out of which about half completely useless, because how minimal damage output is and by the time you increase equipment to make them usefull, you already found better ones. Overall I really wonder if all praise for GoW coming from bunch of people who don't really want to play action game, and want to just watch fancy story about ragged dad and his baby kid with ocasional buttonmashing hordes of the same copy-paste enemy. (probably forgot to mention that that troll fight in the very first trailer is literally repeated up to twelve times in the game, with different mob around.
Like I said before, if it's only animation that won't get in a way of combat speed, I don't care about it much. I just not seeing a point to do photorealism for sake of it, when it gets in the way of gameplay.
ShiningTempest
Well-known Member
Can someone tell me how Uncharted and TLOU are real and realistic and grounded?
ROCKMAN X
Keyser Söze
its simple! The more boring&slow your game is, the more realistic it is! Its just so unrealistic to see Dante going around killing demons without going on a long winded speech about his inner demons.
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
That's character developing; something Devil May Cry as a series is in desperate need of.
Foxtrot94
Elite Hunter
Possibly in a sequence where all you can do is walking while listening to said speech. Gotta have walking and talking segments.
Goldsickle
Well-known Member
They can go with the photorealism all the way.
But don't make the running animation "realistic" where the characters will overshoot and run in semi-circles like in Witcher III, RE6 & MGSV.
I don't care if it makes the characters look jerky or awkward but I want them to run where I tilt my analog stick the millisecond I tilt the stick to a direction I want.
No "braking animation", no running in a semi-circle pattern "for realism" or anything like that.
That "realistic running" bulls*** doesn't belong here.
But don't make the running animation "realistic" where the characters will overshoot and run in semi-circles like in Witcher III, RE6 & MGSV.
I don't care if it makes the characters look jerky or awkward but I want them to run where I tilt my analog stick the millisecond I tilt the stick to a direction I want.
No "braking animation", no running in a semi-circle pattern "for realism" or anything like that.
That "realistic running" bulls*** doesn't belong here.
berto
I Saw the Devil
I don't think the issue is whether or not the game should be photorealistic but rather how it is affecting the development of the game and the gameplay.
Capcom is getting out of a rot and they are, to their credit, putting a good deal of effort into a comeback, if you will. DMC4, although never confirmed, was infamous for having its budget cut half way through to have its resources allocated to RE5's production which for a long time told me where DMC stood in Capcom’s eyes. DmC, however, had a polarizing effect on me because it both reinstated and challenges that believe. Enigmatic, I know, it's part of my charm, children. Seriously, though, in one aspect the production value and cost tell me that they put the money and effort into DmC; hiring a foreign studio, paying them for an entire year just to develop concept, flying staff from Japan to England to Japan every week just to check on the progress. That is both time and effort so it's not like they were dismissive of the project. At the same time, though, this project was so far from all the things that I associate from DMC, and intentionally so, that I most definitely felt that Capcom didn't want anything to do with what made DMC DMC. Both 4 and DmC were huge leaps from the motifs and the spirit of the other games. In the last 3 games staff members always made a point of talking about how they wanted to make a game that new players would get into without having to have prior knowledge of the series and that's why the game is what it is. That's the reason 3 is a prequel, 4 has an entirely new protagonist and DmC is a reboot. 1, 2 and 3 have a visual uniformity, by looks alone I'd buy that they're the same franchise, but 4 doesn't and DmC really doesn't, which, while it doesn't tell me that Capcom isn't half assing the productions of the games it does tell me that they are not interested in trying to make any new potential DMC game resemble the original three.
Tirade about the visual resemblance to the original 3 games aside, here's a little something from more than 15 years ago that's very relevant to this topic. The one thing that people either forget or don't know is that DMC1 was a very realistic game in its time. In fact it was praised for that realism, not just for its visual realism but for Dante's animations and attacks. The way Dante moved was not particularly outlandish, nor were the things he could do. In fact, demon powers aside, the only action that Dante could perform that no real person could was how high he could jump. Yeah, there were fireballs, flying, electrical swords and so on, but the way he shot his guns, the sword moves and the kicking and punching were not something that no mortal man could do. In fact, they were pretty average stuff for it's time considering that most other games of its like had way more over the top action and gameplay than DMC1, though they were not as polished.
Going for a photorealistic look might not be as bad as all that and it's not the first time the series has gone in that direction. The issue is going to be how this approach will conflict with the series' over the top nature it adopted back in DMC3. Yuji Shimomura has made live action movies with his signature action style so it's not impossible to have both, but if it makes the action ingame suffer, that's where concerns should be raised. It's already meant that some aspects that were prominent in the last 3 games have to be removed but that might not be as terrible as all that. If they manage to have a working demo at GamesCom, which is only 3 weeks away, we'll have a better grasp of how the game has changed with this uncanny valley of action in place. Just a little patience.
Capcom is getting out of a rot and they are, to their credit, putting a good deal of effort into a comeback, if you will. DMC4, although never confirmed, was infamous for having its budget cut half way through to have its resources allocated to RE5's production which for a long time told me where DMC stood in Capcom’s eyes. DmC, however, had a polarizing effect on me because it both reinstated and challenges that believe. Enigmatic, I know, it's part of my charm, children. Seriously, though, in one aspect the production value and cost tell me that they put the money and effort into DmC; hiring a foreign studio, paying them for an entire year just to develop concept, flying staff from Japan to England to Japan every week just to check on the progress. That is both time and effort so it's not like they were dismissive of the project. At the same time, though, this project was so far from all the things that I associate from DMC, and intentionally so, that I most definitely felt that Capcom didn't want anything to do with what made DMC DMC. Both 4 and DmC were huge leaps from the motifs and the spirit of the other games. In the last 3 games staff members always made a point of talking about how they wanted to make a game that new players would get into without having to have prior knowledge of the series and that's why the game is what it is. That's the reason 3 is a prequel, 4 has an entirely new protagonist and DmC is a reboot. 1, 2 and 3 have a visual uniformity, by looks alone I'd buy that they're the same franchise, but 4 doesn't and DmC really doesn't, which, while it doesn't tell me that Capcom isn't half assing the productions of the games it does tell me that they are not interested in trying to make any new potential DMC game resemble the original three.
Tirade about the visual resemblance to the original 3 games aside, here's a little something from more than 15 years ago that's very relevant to this topic. The one thing that people either forget or don't know is that DMC1 was a very realistic game in its time. In fact it was praised for that realism, not just for its visual realism but for Dante's animations and attacks. The way Dante moved was not particularly outlandish, nor were the things he could do. In fact, demon powers aside, the only action that Dante could perform that no real person could was how high he could jump. Yeah, there were fireballs, flying, electrical swords and so on, but the way he shot his guns, the sword moves and the kicking and punching were not something that no mortal man could do. In fact, they were pretty average stuff for it's time considering that most other games of its like had way more over the top action and gameplay than DMC1, though they were not as polished.
Going for a photorealistic look might not be as bad as all that and it's not the first time the series has gone in that direction. The issue is going to be how this approach will conflict with the series' over the top nature it adopted back in DMC3. Yuji Shimomura has made live action movies with his signature action style so it's not impossible to have both, but if it makes the action ingame suffer, that's where concerns should be raised. It's already meant that some aspects that were prominent in the last 3 games have to be removed but that might not be as terrible as all that. If they manage to have a working demo at GamesCom, which is only 3 weeks away, we'll have a better grasp of how the game has changed with this uncanny valley of action in place. Just a little patience.
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ROCKMAN X
Keyser Söze
I was being sarcastic. This whole "Walk and Talk" trend in gaming is awful, gaming is a different medium and there are better ways to do storytelling via-gameplay rather than restricting the gameplay itself to tell a story. Silent Hill 2 is the best example in-game storytelling and hell even old Resident Evil games had bits&pieces storytelling via its notes&documents you find throughout the game.
Modern developers are stuck between trying to tell a story&develop characters but they are forced to do so with Action games which are usually fast paced(because these games sell a lot) so there's this jarring transition between "Slow walkie talkie" and then heart pounding action. It just never blends, they feel like 2 different parts of the game rather than one&the same. The type of gameplay where this dialogue dump works is in slow paced RPG's or point'n'click style Adventure games.
I still remember the "would you kindly" quote from Bioshock and how it makes a philosophical statement which can't be recreated by books or movies. I want more of those kind of "stories", that use gameplay in creative ways to tell a story. Video game stories should be conveyed through experience rather than dialogue because games are an interactive medium. DmC has more fleshed out story&characters but i still feel more connected with DMC dante because i feel like dante when playing DMC3, the gameplay feels every bit as crazy&insane as the dante in cut-scenes.
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UncannyGarlic
Well-known Member
I was disappointed that DMC3 went so over the top with what Dante did because it was so different from the original game. I enjoyed it for what it was but I always hoped they would make a sequel that was more similar to the original's tone. That said, I don't ever remember thinking that DMC was realistic. It was more like the action movies of the time, like a more fluid wire-foo in a way. Every cutscene was not highlighting the resiculous things that Dante could do in an attempt to top the previous cutscene, they actually had a decent amount of talking.
I think the setting was huge in making it feel more real since it was so well designed. DMC drew from Resident Evil in the right ways to make the island and mansion almost another character. There were a lot of quirky creepy things in it and the reveal of the first marionette was a great moment. It also evolved and became more twisted as the game went on, mirroring the developing plot.
It's why I think Lady is such a popular character, they had a reveal about her backstory, some depth, and some convincing emotional variety. DMC is pretty bad about having two dimensional characters with one dimensional character support. In the case of DMC2, one dimensional characters with a one dimensional supporting cast. Let's hope DMC5 breaks the tradition.
DarkSlayerVergil
Well-known Member
Could you really say a character like Trish was anymore dimensional than say Lucia? I'm sorry I just feel like you wouldn't be saying this if DMC2 was actually good (not trying to come off as offensive just or anything just what I got from your post).
UncannyGarlic
Well-known Member
No, the characters in the first game are pretty shallow too, Trish being the stand out. I actually think Lucia is a more fleshed out character in 2 than Dante is. I feel like they tried with Lucia, they just failed to execute. DMC benefits from a better structured and paced plot with trappings that are better executed. The writing is pretty cringeworthy. DMC2 had some solid character and environmental art design but falls flat everywhere else, making it an easier target.
ROCKMAN X
Keyser Söze
Is it just me or DMC writers have failed 3 times trying to write one type of character?
Lucia, Trish&Nero all have struggles with their demonic heritage and their place in the world. Trish just gets over being mundus's puppet way too easily in DMC1 and Lucia was just Trish 2.0 with more backstory and self-doubt but the problem i have with her is that we never get to see Lucia get out of control and kill things so her struggles would have more impact and make her character arc more compelling. And then there's that same problem with Nero, he just gets accepted by Kyrie and that's that. There's no real character arc for nero aside from saving kyrie like Mario.
berto
I Saw the Devil
@UncannyGarlic
Yeah, I mostly concur with that. I remember that the game was impressive looking, it was one of the first games I bought when I got my PS2, but the hands always really stuck out with their low polygon count, but I still remember reading reviews that talked about the game like that. 2001 was a very busy year with really good looking games so it was thing. Also, I think that at the time Capcom's best looking game was OniMusha so the improvement provably impressed a few.
As for the other topic, there is actually more to Dante and Trish's character than what we see in the game. There was some things said in the DVD Book that give more insight into the inner thoughts of Dante while he's on the island. Back in the day presenting the story played second fiddle to the actual game but that doesn't mean that they didn't actually think about those stories. For example, it's never stated in the game but in RE4 Leon panics over how the villagers' heads explode to expose those bladed tentacles because thinking that's what's going to happen to him.
Yeah, I mostly concur with that. I remember that the game was impressive looking, it was one of the first games I bought when I got my PS2, but the hands always really stuck out with their low polygon count, but I still remember reading reviews that talked about the game like that. 2001 was a very busy year with really good looking games so it was thing. Also, I think that at the time Capcom's best looking game was OniMusha so the improvement provably impressed a few.
As for the other topic, there is actually more to Dante and Trish's character than what we see in the game. There was some things said in the DVD Book that give more insight into the inner thoughts of Dante while he's on the island. Back in the day presenting the story played second fiddle to the actual game but that doesn't mean that they didn't actually think about those stories. For example, it's never stated in the game but in RE4 Leon panics over how the villagers' heads explode to expose those bladed tentacles because thinking that's what's going to happen to him.
UncannyGarlic
Well-known Member
@berto
It's so easy to forget about the time the game came out. I remember thinking how beautiful DMC was when it came out and you're right, the characters did look very realistic for the time. I'm trying to think of a better looking game at the time and can't come up with one.
I'm sure there was more story to the characters than made it into the game. You don't work on a project for that long and not have more detailed ideas about what is or could be going on around the island and with the characters. I think that's reflected in how well the game came together as a whole and with the involvement with the light novel. It's a shame that they never novelized the events of the game, it could have been an interesting deeper look at things.
It's so easy to forget about the time the game came out. I remember thinking how beautiful DMC was when it came out and you're right, the characters did look very realistic for the time. I'm trying to think of a better looking game at the time and can't come up with one.
I'm sure there was more story to the characters than made it into the game. You don't work on a project for that long and not have more detailed ideas about what is or could be going on around the island and with the characters. I think that's reflected in how well the game came together as a whole and with the involvement with the light novel. It's a shame that they never novelized the events of the game, it could have been an interesting deeper look at things.
Innsmouth
Sleeping DMC Fan
@UncannyGarlic
I think Onimusha looked at least just as good back at the day, when we talk about good looking games.
I think Onimusha looked at least just as good back at the day, when we talk about good looking games.
ShiningTempest
Well-known Member
So Capcom seems to be spending some cash on new projects. I guess its the money they made from MHWorld 8 milion sales.
Capcom can revive Onimusha very well, as Nioh and some samurai games are getting popular.
Capcom can revive Onimusha very well, as Nioh and some samurai games are getting popular.