So after almost a year...

[Nessy]

And having completed the game from literally the start (Nephilim) all the way through DMD 3 times and having completed hell or hell, I am still annoyed about the stuff that I was annoyed about on day 1.

Ignoring some problems binding buttons (I think having to go into the config so I can bind a DT or gun special is obviously stupid) I still hate some things just as much now as ever.

For me no matter how much people argue, I find that not having lock-on limits the number of combos, and means that no matter how good I am at this game there are always times when my character will just not target the thing I want it to target (lets say there are 6 enemies within a 60 degree angle, at least with lock on I'd know which one I was planning on attacking). This leads to having to double tap the analog stick towards enemies, which takes slightly longer, and leaves you far less certain of which enemy you will hit.

The angel enemies will always take longer to kill because the scythe is simply a much weaker weapon than the others. If DMC didn't have a style system, and it didn't have blue/red enemies then I am pretty such my damage with the scythe would be somewhere in the range of my damage with the grenades (which are still way more than the other guns). It isn't a useful weapon, and ALMOST everytime I use it I know I am doing it just because I want it to look better or to score points, not because it is actually useful.

It would be interesting to see the damage stats from all weapons from people.

This being said, I stand by my prediction that I made about half an hour after I started playing this game, that it is the best game I was going to play that will be released in 2013. Developers don't make games that are designed to take much skill/have any replayability very often.

What other GAMEPLAY issues do people that otherwise enjoy the game, that they can't reconcile with?

 

[OppressedWriter]

First, about the binding this is a non-issue, the game lts you rebind keys in regular menu in console release, it was a small flaw in an otherwise amazing port. You are free to feel the way that you do, but please go through the multiple threads about this topic that have been brought up a thousand times. The game is about crowd control, the enemies purposefully bunch up together, you are required to use the vast number of moves at Dante's disposal to spread them apart, use center camera, and it will center directly onto the target that Dante is aiming at. IT is indeed lock on, Angel Weapons are incredibly powerful, it's called Feed, when you charge it up it does more damage than almost any other weapon, and also regenerates Devil Trigger. Anyway, I don't know how many times I can put this stuff up with actual detail and effort only for it to be ignored.

How am I choosing the proper target in this sequence?

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

go sam

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

I have thousands of hours put into dmc1 dmc3 and dmc4 not so much dmc2 ha and when I took up playing the reboot I surprisingly found absoloutely no obstruction to its combat or jc or anything without the lock on reticule I was used to as sam stated centre camera is the way to go

 

[VOLPE]

And having completed the game from literally the start (Nephilim) all the way through DMD 3 times and having completed hell or hell, I am still annoyed about the stuff that I was annoyed about on day 1.

Ignoring some problems binding buttons (I think having to go into the config so I can bind a DT or gun special is obviously stupid) I still hate some things just as much now as ever.

For me no matter how much people argue, I find that not having lock-on limits the number of combos, and means that no matter how good I am at this game there are always times when my character will just not target the thing I want it to target (lets say there are 6 enemies within a 60 degree angle, at least with lock on I'd know which one I was planning on attacking). This leads to having to double tap the analog stick towards enemies, which takes slightly longer, and leaves you far less certain of which enemy you will hit.

The angel enemies will always take longer to kill because the scythe is simply a much weaker weapon than the others. If DMC didn't have a style system, and it didn't have blue/red enemies then I am pretty such my damage with the scythe would be somewhere in the range of my damage with the grenades (which are still way more than the other guns). It isn't a useful weapon, and ALMOST everytime I use it I know I am doing it just because I want it to look better or to score points, not because it is actually useful.

It would be interesting to see the damage stats from all weapons from people.

This being said, I stand by my prediction that I made about half an hour after I started playing this game, that it is the best game I was going to play that will be released in 2013. Developers don't make games that are designed to take much skill/have any replayability very often.

What other GAMEPLAY issues do people that otherwise enjoy the game, that they can't reconcile with?

For starters the controller config takes me forever to set up lol and i miss my lock on and i dont like the enemies they look idk weird not like demons but more like idk comic monsters and i find some of dantes combos annoying -edit- i didnt know about centering the camera to basically lock on so i take that back i still think im going to have problems seeting my controller up to fit my play style comfortably and i still dont like the way the enemies look

 

[Nessy]

@OppressedWriter On the PC, the rebinding the controls requires you to go into a config file and change them, and even then changing them is less than intuitive.

And secondly, are you honestly trying to argue that when a group of enemies are clustered, it doesn't sometimes go for the wrong one, because not only is that not believable, it simply doesn't make sense. The analog on a controller is limited, and without lock on depending on the position of your sometimes from where you are standing it is literally impossible for it to select the correct target, whereas if you had lock on you would toggle to him instantly.

Firstly, in that sequence it basically doesn't matter which you pick in the first place. You could jump to virtually any area in that scenario and be fine, secondly, there are 6 enemies spread around you all great distances from each other. Please, try and post non-biased arguments.

If you respond, please answer my questions as to:

Does it every target an enemy you didn't want it to target causing you to do the move towards the wrong enemy?
How would you go about targeting (or even being certain of which one was being targeted) the middle enemy of 3 enemies that are standing away from you in a straight line?

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

nice vids sam love the stinger prop shreeder move myself too usually high time into a couple of rave jc's from it then Aquila grab move jc a few stygians in the air do a shuffle with Osiris a rain storm and an arbiter slam or just angel doge and glide back and forth between them and smack en off the grond with eryx and sream slam dunk ha

 

[OppressedWriter]

@OppressedWriter On the PC, the rebinding the controls requires you to go into a config file and change them, and even then changing them is less than intuitive.

And secondly, are you honestly trying to argue that when a group of enemies are clustered, it doesn't sometimes go for the wrong one, because not only is that not believable, it simply doesn't make sense. The analog on a controller is limited, and without lock on depending on the position of your sometimes from where you are standing it is literally impossible for it to select the correct target, whereas if you had lock on you would toggle to him instantly.

Firstly, in that sequence it basically doesn't matter which you pick in the first place. You could jump to virtually any area in that scenario and be fine, secondly, there are 6 enemies spread around you all great distances from each other. Please, try and post non-biased arguments.

If you respond, please answer my questions as to:

Does it every target an enemy you didn't want it to target causing you to do the move towards the wrong enemy?
How would you go about targeting (or even being certain of which one was being targeted) the middle enemy of 3 enemies that are standing away from you in a straight line?

First of all I play on the PC version, second whats your steam ID, just out of curiosity... because I'd have no problem discussing mechanics with you regarding this game, because you obviously don't seem to understand what's going on in that video. The reason I"m able to switch targets and choose the right one without being interupted is because I'm using skilled ricoshot releases, you're the one that is not able to understand the mechanics of a new game, and is bothered by having to go to an .ini file. Really is it that hard, almost every pc gamer scours the .ini from time to time.

If YOU DO not spread out targets using Dante's varied moveset, you will get hit, think of it this way, if there was a lock ON, you would not be allowed to lock on to the enemy behind a flank of enemies, why because the game would auto repel your reticule. That is essentially what is happening, I mean how do you expect the demon pull to go around a flank of enemies who are literally creating a phalanx to interrupt your pull. They're creating COVER so that the other enemy can hit you without being interrupted.

Also, do you play on keybord or controller? Because DmC is not suited for keyboard, I don't care that some people can star rave and do other stuff in DMC4 with a keyboard, DmC is all about using the pressure sensitive triggers to seamlessly switch between weapons. If you are not using something that has pressure sensitive triggers that are recognized that would probably explain some of the latency or input delay issues you think you might be having. Try turning off VSYNC.

One more THING DmC is not meant to played so slowly, you're supposed to fight aggressively and switch from target to target. Dante gives highest priority to the next enemy that is about to interrupt his combo or hit him, if you start understanding the rhythm of the enemies attacking you, you will notice that you can always dodge, parry, or demon pull the right enemy. If two enemies are in a straight line, and one of them is about to attack you if you point your stick in the general direction of that enemy Dante WILL target the right Enemy 99% of the time. (OH yeah, click center camera, DANTE will center the camera on the target he his locked on to).


About your question, of course no system is perfect, does Dante occasionally not do what I want him to yes, but its like less than 1% of the time. DmC honestly has some of the best aim prioritization I've seen in an action game, the only game that even comes close is Batman Arkham City, the last one, not the terrible new one.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

how can people use a keyboard for dmc4 I have to use an xbox remote I played it on xbox long before I got it on pc I cant imagine a keyboard being easy

 

[OppressedWriter]

how can people use a keyboard for dmc4 I have to use an xbox remote I played it on xbox long before I got it on pc I cant imagine a keyboard being easy

Yeah some people do and to be honest, I think its unfair, some of the high level players use it and I think it makes macroing star raves and other tech much easier to do than it is on a controller. Someone star raving consistently on the controller has to put it in a lot of practice.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

ha don't I know too well I learned to star rave and guard fly and jc on xbox ha ha I still remember the blisters dear lord then I got it on pc two years ago and had the beautiful debug mode wish I had pc version first would have saved me the torture

 

[Nessy]

First of all I play on the PC version, second whats your steam ID, just out of curiosity... because I'd have no problem discussing mechanics with you regarding this game, because you obviously don't seem to understand what's going on in that video. The reason I"m able to switch targets and choose the right one without being interupted is because I'm using skilled ricoshot releases, you're the one that is not able to understand the mechanics of a new game, and is bothered by having to go to an .ini file. Really is it that hard, almost every pc gamer scours the .ini from time to time.

If YOU DO not spread out targets using Dante's varied moveset, you will get hit, think of it this way, if there was a lock ON, you would not be allowed to lock on to the enemy behind a flank of enemies, why because the game would auto repel your reticule. That is essentially what is happening, I mean how do you expect the demon pull to go around a flank of enemies who are literally creating a phalanx to interrupt your pull. They're creating COVER so that the other enemy can hit you without being interrupted.

Also, do you play on keybord or controller? Because DmC is not suited for keyboard, I don't care that some people can star rave and do other stuff in DMC4 with a keyboard, DmC is all about using the pressure sensitive triggers to seamlessly switch between weapons. If you are not using something that has pressure sensitive triggers that are recognized that would probably explain some of the latency or input delay issues you think you might be having. Try turning off VSYNC.

One more THING DmC is not meant to played so slowly, you're supposed to fight aggressively and switch from target to target. Dante gives highest priority to the next enemy that is about to interrupt his combo or hit him, if you start understanding the rhythm of the enemies attacking you, you will notice that you can always dodge, parry, or demon pull the right enemy. If two enemies are in a straight line, and one of them is about to attack you if you point your stick in the general direction of that enemy Dante WILL target the right Enemy 99% of the time. (OH yeah, click center camera, DANTE will center the camera on the target he his locked on to).

My steams are killa_kev and jambonessy

I play with vsync off already, and editing the config file is not intuitive because of the ****ty logic used in it as to how to bind keys, I am well versed in using computers and am fairly certain that someone who isn't would have problems.

Also, instead of dealing with the issue, you are giving an alternative. Instead of saying "this is how I would do it" you are saying "I wouldn't do it". What about if there are 5 enemies on the ground in a straight line from you, and you are in the air and want to pull a middle one? You can't, with lock on you could easily toggle between them, and when moving you could make sure dante focussed on the correct one for stuff such as ranged weapons.

I use a controller to play the game, same with DMC4. Also, I would like to point out that I have no problem with "getting hit", and if you read my posts back when this game was released, I was one of the first players to systematically go around and complete the game on DMD with no damage (which for some reason the creators thought wasn't worth a bonus).

You still didn't answer my question as to how you could select an enemy, when there are a group of enemies in a straight line.

I know a lot of people don't mind that there is no lock-on, but I can't see any logic in not arguing that you can clearly be more accurate with it than without it. You even conceded that not all the time will the right enemy be selected even if they aren't in a straight line (you say 99% which I'm sure is just a figure of speech as I doubt you've done the ground work for that), which is still worse than the certainty you would have if there was a target surrounding the enemy.

PS. It's needlessly insulting to say that i "obviously don't understand what is going on in that video", and is a needless ad hominem attack. What you do in that video looks pretty, but in no way addresses the points I brought across. If the issues I brought up aren't true it would be trivially easy for you to disprove me by posting a short video showing me why I am wrong, such as doing any of the things I asked you to answer. Secondly, I don't see why someone should have to understand that video to be able to address why there is no lock-on. Someone that had only played 10 hours of the game or even 10 minutes could bring up these points. What you did here is attacking my credibility instead of my arguments.

 

[OppressedWriter]

You should really check out my posts in the other thread, if I sound overtly aggressive its because I've said this stuff a million times and with great effort and detail. Anyway, here's some of the things you can do so that you can separate the targets for easy target selection.

Did you try placing center camera on R1 like I said? Also, mechanics, like I've said certain mechanics would have to be changed which would go against the way the whole moveset is designed for this particular version.

Also, you like playing practically so I'm telling you the techniques to isolate targets for you to dispatch one by one:

Use fireworks, it sends all the enemies around you in nice 45 degree cones so you can easily pick out the right target.

Launch the target and use calibur till you have them further away than the rest of the enemies.

Use a perfect charged ricoshot, this also spreads enemies around a great distance from each other, allowing you to easily keep the heat on a particular target.

If you use all the skills Dante has you'll see that DmC offers you actual tactics to deal with crowds instead of it being a manipulation of the camera to some degree.


Can you better explain what lock on would do in DmC? Do you want it so you can stinger an enemy into a corner, and isolate it from the pack. Or do you want to attack one target while surrounded by several others? And why exactly is that important?

Just keep in mind, DmC wants you to imagine its encounters as one long battle, and not something where you're picking off targets one by one. They want you to go with flow the adapt on the fly while fighting groups of enemies.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Wait, you don't even own the game and you've been playing it all year? Seriously... Anyway, sigh. You are asking to do something that the game didn't design its combat around, Dante has a bunch of attacks to control crowds, so when enemies are in a phalanx, you should you know try to break it up so you can isolate the target you want for additional punishment. This obsession with wanting to just grab a target one by one without breaking the phalanx makes no sense to me. That is how the AI is programmed, I mean if you had LOCK ON, it would auto REPEL the target you always tried to lock on on to when they were in a group. The reason you struggle to grab one out of a group is because as a group the enemies defenses are theoretically higher.

You can use kabloeey, makes enemies fly all over place.
You can use fireworks, 45 degree separation.
You can use Stomp.
You can Slam.
You can use Skilled Ricoshot.
You can use skilled shotgun bomb.
You can use osiris and aquilas to damage multiple enemies.

Also, you didn't answer my question are you even using a controller with your "copy" of the game.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

This reminds me of my rant on DMC4's gameplay. I didn't know all the secret mechanics at the time and was playing it with unintrest. But once I learned the smaller moves and started doing combos, I was enjoying the gameplay. DMC4 as a whole still sucked, but the gameplay was better when I knew how to jump cancel and such.

 

[Nessy]

Firstly, if you read my post I did answer your question, I do use a controller. Secondly, I already use techniques to disperse enemies, I have to, because there is no lock-on. As i have said and as everyone knows, there are clearly situation where you may want to for whatever reason select a single enemy from a group, maybe you want to pull a certain enemy into the air or stinger an enemy. Whatever the reason is, you may want to do it, and you simply as you have now admitted, can not.

And the reason I struggle to pick one out isn't because of some "theoretical defense", it is because there is no lock-on.

Just because the idea of picking one target out of a group without dispersing them makes no sense to you (even though there are countless reasons why a player may want to do this) is not an argument. What you are essentially saying has now changed from "you aren't missing anything with lock-on" to "you shouldn't care about you are missing without lock-on".

In the thousands of enemies you have killed (maybe hundreds of thousands) while playing the game, are you trying to say that you have never been in a position where being able to lock-on would be useful? I know that you don't seem to enjoy directly answering questions, but this one seems like a no-brainer.

 

[OppressedWriter]

...

You seem to be misunderstanding how the game is designed. I already told you, if their was a lock on, it would auto repel the target if it was in middle of an enemy phalanx. That's just how it is, the game is about dispatching crowds of enemies by utilizing the various crowd control moves that Dante has. It is not very hard to disperse and isolate by centering the camera. You can disperse, launch, calibur and center camera, and voila you have isolated a target. Instead of the game letting you isolate targets via something that has no mechanical purpose, its just a system called lock on, you have to use actual tactics and moves to isolate targets. This is in fact a much more natural and logical way for the combat system of an action game to be.

If you honestly think that having a set of moves created to disperse crowds is too much work or somehow limits your combat possibilities, because you can't just sit in the air and cherry pick targets to pull well I'm not sure there's is anything I can say to change your mind. You want a game that is not about crowd control , but something more like Zelda or Dark Souls.

 

[Nessy]

You seem to be misunderstanding how the game is designed. I already told you, if their was a lock on, it would auto repel the target if it was in middle of an enemy phalanx. That's just how it is, the game is about dispatching crowds of enemies by utilizing the various crowd control moves that Dante has. It is not very hard to disperse and isolate by centering the camera. You can disperse, launch, calibur and center camera, and voila you have isolated a target. Instead of the game letting you isolate targets via something that has no mechanical purpose, its just a system called lock on, you have to use actual tactics and moves to isolate targets. This is in fact a much more natural and logical way for the combat system of an action game to be.

If you honestly think that having a set of moves created to disperse crowds is too much work or somehow limits your combat possibilities, because you can't just sit in the air and cherry pick targets to pull well I'm not sure there's is anything I can say to change your mind. You want a game that is not about crowd control , but something more like Zelda or Dark Souls.

Again you are avoided my question, and then you said that if I think there is a problem with the game, it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with me.

Again, I will ask a simple question. There are 3 enemies, a reasonable distance from you all on the ground away from you in a straight line. By a straight line I mean that one is behind the other. You are in the air and want to grab the one in the middle. You can't because there is no lock-on. Why is this a good thing?

This question has nothing to do with dispersing enemies, I am in the situation where I want to do something that should be well within the game mechanics, and it would be possible if the front enemy were in a different place. Here it is clearly demonstrable that you CAN NOT do something you otherwise could do because they left a simple mechanic out of the game.

 

[OppressedWriter]

The thing is why DO you need to grab the target in the middle? Why would anyone want to do combat like that? Here's what you do, you use one out of the countless skills dante has to separate the targets and then go after the one you want. You are not giving a good reason as to why you arbitrarly want to be able to pull a target in the middle. LOCK on disrupts the flow of seamless fluid combat, that is what DmC is all about, seamlessly fighting a group of enemies in one single continuous combo string. What you want is one on one pick enemies apart Zelda style combat.

 

[VOLPE]

The thing is why DO you need to grab the target in the middle? Why would anyone want to do combat like that? Here's what you do, you use one out of the countless skills dante has to separate the targets and then go after the one you want. You are not giving a good reason as to why you arbitrarly want to be able to pull a target in the middle. LOCK on disrupts the flow of seamless fluid combat, that is what DmC is all about, seamlessly fighting a group of enemies in one single continuous combo string. What you want is one on one pick enemies apart Zelda style combat.

....so ive read this whole thread so far and my question is why does it matter why he wants to pick out the middle one? he wants to pick out the middle one or even target the middle one and he should be able to do so i think that makes sense i get seperating them then locking on but if id rather pick one out of the middle of the group that i can clearly "SEE" then why not