So after almost a year...

[Nessy]

....so ive read this whole thread so far and my question is why does it matter why he wants to pick out the middle one? he wants to pick out the middle one or even target the middle one and he should be able to do so i think that makes sense i get seperating them then locking on but if id rather pick one out of the middle of the group that i can clearly "SEE" then why not

Exactly my point. It is supposed to be possible. It isn't. Simple.

 

[OppressedWriter]

....so ive read this whole thread so far and my question is why does it matter why he wants to pick out the middle one? he wants to pick out the middle one or even target the middle one and he should be able to do so i think that makes sense i get separating them then locking on but if id rather pick one out of the middle of the group that i can clearly "SEE" then why not

Because it does not work, it is called game design, you design to a system because it fits into the rest of the combat you've designed. You don't arbitrary throw it stuff because well you know you should. Lock on would NOT work with DmC, it would not solve the issues everyone seems to be whining about constantly. You are always holding Angel Trigger and Devil Trigger, it would not be something that is natural to be holding lock on + angel trigger + demon trigger. The game's AI would have to be completely redesigned if you were to legitimately design it around one on one lock on combat, because it would break the game if it worked as some people would wish it did.

Dante dominates enemies one by one, the only challenge during DmC's combat comes from managing environmental hazards, and mixed crowds, because you have to utilize various different tactics in order to keep your combo going. Once you get to the last enemy, the game does lock on to the final target, and now you can do your stylish combo finish in true DmC style.

I've said it before, here's what would happen if I gave lock on but kept the exact same AI rules, the lock on would say (sorry cannot target, enemy using disruptor ray to prevent demon pull, or I would make it so the enemy would 100% repel your demon pull.)

 

[VOLPE]

Because it does not work, it is called game design, you design to a system because it fits into the rest of the combat you've designed. You don't arbitrary throw it stuff because well you know you should. Lock on would NOT work with DmC, it would not solve the issues everyone seems to be whining about constantly. You are always holding Angel Trigger and Devil Trigger, it would not be something that is natural to be holding lock on + angel trigger + demon trigger. The game's AI would have to be completely redesigned if you were to legitimately design it around one on one lock on combat, because it would break the game if it worked as some people would wish it did.

Dante dominates enemies one by one, the only challenge during DmC's combat comes from managing environmental hazards, and mixed crowds, because you have to utilize various different tactics in order to keep your combo going. Once you get to the last enemy, the game does lock on to the final target, and now you can do your stylish combo finish in true DmC style.

I've said it before, here's what would happen if I gave lock on but kept the exact same AI rules, the lock on would say (sorry cannot target, enemy using disruptor ray to prevent demon pull, or I would make it so the enemy would 100% repel your demon pull.)

Why are you always holding angel and devil trigger dont you switch between the two and regular rebellion?

 

[Nessy]

Because it does not work, it is called game design, you design to a system because it fits into the rest of the combat you've designed. You don't arbitrary throw it stuff because well you know you should. Lock on would NOT work with DmC, it would not solve the issues everyone seems to be whining about constantly. You are always holding Angel Trigger and Devil Trigger, it would not be something that is natural to be holding lock on + angel trigger + demon trigger. The game's AI would have to be completely redesigned if you were to legitimately design it around one on one lock on combat, because it would break the game if it worked as some people would wish it did.

Dante dominates enemies one by one, the only challenge during DmC's combat comes from managing environmental hazards, and mixed crowds, because you have to utilize various different tactics in order to keep your combo going. Once you get to the last enemy, the game does lock on to the final target, and now you can do your stylish combo finish in true DmC style.

I've said it before, here's what would happen if I gave lock on but kept the exact same AI rules, the lock on would say (sorry cannot target, enemy using disruptor ray to prevent demon pull, or I would make it so the enemy would 100% repel your demon pull.)

You are making assertions without evidence. At the very least all I am claiming is that if there were lock-on it would solve the situations that I have outlined here, which you don't even seem to disagree with. You then go on to say it wouldn't solve other problems that I didn't mention. You are stating that the AI would have to be completely redesigned just because I am trying to selecting 1 enemy standing behind the other. This is clearly false because a lot of the time (at random it seems) it will pick the behind enemy, there isn't an invisible "disruptor ray" that stops you, it's just a flaw in the game mechanics.

I enjoyed the game, as I said it is my favourite game this year, but I don't have to lie to myself that it has problems. I can be honest and point out that it, like any other game out there, is not perfect. All I was hoping for is a logical argument on a DmC forum about what could be better about the game. It seems like you have decided in advance that anything that seems imperfect about the combat system isn't really imperfect at all, and has a reason behind it we need to discover.

And either way, I am not even talking about a large group of enemies, again you are evading the question of how do I grab 1 of 2 enemies that are in a straight line away from me when I am in the air. Don't question why I want to do it because (apart from the fact that there are clearly situations where this is useful) it doesn't matter why, I just want to. Why is it better not to be able to select the enemies here, and instead just have the game pseudo randomly pick which enemy it feels is the better choice.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Why are you always holding angel and devil trigger dont you switch between the two and regular rebellion?

But I'm constantly switching between the two rapidly, I mean you can see the recent combo I put up, if the camera was on my fingers you'd see the complex elegance of the trigger system, of holding and letting go, the lock on would not be something that would work against crowds, because it would break the flow of combat. And like I said DmC locks on to the final enemy by default. The enemies you fight more in one on one type battles tend to usually be big and spread apart, their are certain enemies like stygians that are in large crowds, where you're supposed to grind them up using crowd control weapons.

 

[OppressedWriter]

You are making assertions without evidence. At the very least all I am claiming is that if there were lock-on it would solve the situations that I have outlined here, which you don't even seem to disagree with. You then go on to say it wouldn't solve other problems that I didn't mention. You are stating that the AI would have to be completely redesigned just because I am trying to selecting 1 enemy standing behind the other. This is clearly false because a lot of the time (at random it seems) it will pick the behind enemy, there isn't an invisible "disruptor ray" that stops you, it's just a flaw in the game mechanics.

I enjoyed the game, as I said it is my favourite game this year, but I don't have to lie to myself that it has problems. I can be honest and point out that it, like any other game out there, is not perfect. All I was hoping for is a logical argument on a DmC forum about what could be better about the game. It seems like you have decided in advance that anything that seems imperfect about the combat system isn't really imperfect at all, and has a reason behind it we need to discover.

Your argument is flawed, and I don't think you seem to actually understand the way game design works. My only guess is that DmC is too fast for you, and that's why you wish you could arbitrarily slow down combat and ruin all the fluidity by having an unnecessary lock-on. Also, I am not making assertions, Dante will choose the target that is about to attack him next if you do not input a direction, so its not as random as you might feel it is.

 

[VOLPE]

But I'm constantly switching between the two rapidly, I mean you can see the recent combo I put up, if the camera was on my fingers you'd see the complex elegance of the trigger system, of holding and letting go, the lock on would not be something that would work against crowds, because it would break the flow of combat. And like I said DmC locks on to the final enemy by default. The enemies you fight more in one on one type battles tend to usually be big and spread apart, their are certain enemies like stygians that are in large crowds, where you're supposed to grind them up using crowd control weapons.

Ok what about making clicking down on the right or left analog the lock on button? and clicking it again to switch targets that wouldnt interupt the triggers or buttons right?

 

[OppressedWriter]

Ok what about making clicking down on the right or left analog the lock on button? and clicking it again to switch targets that wouldnt interupt the triggers or buttons right?

Volpe, it's not even about that it literally has no purpose in this game, I'm not just making up the **** aobut the AI, if you could simply pick enemies apart one by one slowly from a distance, their would be no challenge. The most challenging battles in DmC are 2 dreamrunners + witch, or the changing dance floors + tank drone + stygians, or the harpies + chainsaw guys, its these mix ups where you have to control the crowd fast and on the fly that the fun where the challenge in DmC comes from. When you do isolate an enemy though, Dante can obliterate them and that's your reward for tactically dividing them up, you get to conquer them with style.

Also, Volpe, I've said it before Dante does lock on, just click center camera and it doesn't just center, but it centers on the target Dante is locked on to as well, and if you combine ebony/ivory with left click he does toggle targets that he is locked onto. Still, its really easy to use one of the various crowd spreading skills, stinger or launch into the target you want, than while inputing that move press center, voila you should be able to continue beating down that enemy.

 

[Nessy]

You're wrong, you don't seem to actually understand the way game design works, and obviously because DmC is too fast for you

Firstly, I completed the game on DMD with no damage on every level within the first month of it's release. It isn't that fast a game, I have played games that take a lot more thought and move a lot faster.

Dante will choose the target that is about to attack him next if you do not input a direction, so its not random he doesn't randomly choose targets

But if targets are standing in a straight line you can't always tell which one he will choose to grapple.

You can still combo on them after you separate them, and DmC has probably the most fun level runs where you can be creative than the previous games. The previous games most of the SS runs are very methodical and even more tactical based there's almost no styling compare this to DmC where you can do a good skilled run but also style in the process.

So you are saying that this game you don't have to be tactical, the others you do, and yet you say that I can't just grab whichever enemy I want (which I could in other games) since I have to be tactical.

Your for the 6th time in this thread have not addressed the point of simply having 3 enemies in a straight line while you are in the air, and not being able to pick out one, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT NEAR EACH OTHER, no phalanx as you call it, no cluster, just 3 (or even 2) enemies standings in a straight line.

Believe me I am aware there are workarounds for groups, workarounds you are forced to use such as dispersing enemies at the start of every fight. I use them, because I have to, but that is worse than HAVING THE OPTION to do other things.

Stop dodging the argument and tell me that when I have 2 enemies in a straight line in front of me, why it is a good thing that I can't choose which one Dante locks on to.

 

[Nessy]

I would like to reiterate as you seem to be missing this:

Yourself and 2 enemies on a 2D plane. You are in the air, there is an enemy slightly infront of you and on the ground, another enemy behind him and on the ground and at maximum grab range. Why is it a good thing that I can't choose which one I grab?

I have made this it's own post just to get your attention as you seem to be ignoring it every single post.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

So here's something - I have no problems knowing who I'm locked onto. Why? Because I use the left stick to alter my lock-on target, and if enemies are bunched up and I want to single one out - I take a pot shot with E&I (my firearm of choice) and see where the bullets land. If I'm not diggin' where there flyin', I simply use the target change key to get them - from there, I'm golden.

Does it suck there's no Hard Lock? Not really. It'd be nice, but the game was not designed with it in mind so it's not a detrimental loss - you're given all the tools you need otherwise.

I think you could stand to stop expecting the game to play like one of the classics in regards to its lock-on system. It's one thing to be upset over hard lock's absence, but it's another to seemingly refuse to adjust to the mechanics the game does offer you. Plenty of people, myself and SamD here included, have no problem with the game, so all I can say is maybe the problem lies with how you address the game :x

--------------------------------

On-topic, what can't I reconcile with? Magic generates far too slow and is consumed far too quickly. Granted in DmC DT is an "Oh sh!t" ability, but for how quickly it's consumed I would have liked it to generate more quickly, it can literally take a Mission and a half's worth of time to build up what's gone in a matter of moments.

It's why I end up using Super Dante when I'm just goofing off.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

Chuck Norris doesn't use lock on for roundhouse kicks ha ha ha I can see both sides I would use priper lock on with a reticule if it had it but the method the game has doesn't impede me so I can work away with killing

 

[OppressedWriter]

.

I am not ignoring it. I'm saying because its pointless, their is no need, is the enemy a threat, are you going to do something with this particular enemy. For what reason would you want to target this enemy. Just because doesn't cut it, tell me why in that scenario YOU just have to at that precise moment grab that enemy. It is about to attack you, if so you will grab that enemy if you position the stick towards it right before it strikes you (timing matters).

 

[OppressedWriter]

On-topic, what can't I reconcile with? Magic generates far too slow and is consumed far too quickly. Granted in DmC DT is an "Oh sh!t" ability, but for how quickly it's consumed I would have liked it to generate more quickly, it can literally take a Mission and a half's worth of time to build up what's gone in a matter of moments.

It's why I end up using Super Dante when I'm just goofing off.

Use osiris feed, it sucks and regenerates demon energy much more than every other weapon, that's why before many challenging encounters you'll fight some blue enemies or a crapton of baby rages, if you're skilled enough, and can prop shredder the baby rages in a nice meat grinder you'll get a healthy amount of DT. Also, long aerial combos regenerate DT much faster than normal as well.

 

[Nessy]

So here's something - I have no problems knowing who I'm locked onto. Why? Because I use the left stick to alter my lock-on target, and if enemies are bunched up and I want to single one out - I take a pot shot with E&I (my firearm of choice) and see where the bullets land. If I'm not diggin' where there flyin', I simply use the target change key to get them - from there, I'm golden.

Does it suck there's no Hard Lock? Not really. It'd be nice, but the game was not designed with it in mind so it's not a detrimental loss - you're given all the tools you need otherwise.

I think you could stand to stop expecting the game to play like one of the classics in regards to its lock-on system. It's one thing to be upset over hard lock's absence, but it's another to seemingly refuse to adjust to the mechanics the game does offer you. Plenty of people, myself and SamD here included, have no problem with the game, so all I can say is maybe the problem lies with how you address the game :x

--------------------------------

On-topic, what can't I reconcile with? Magic generates far too slow and is consumed far too quickly. Granted in DmC DT is an "Oh sh!t" ability, but for how quickly it's consumed I would have liked it to generate more quickly, it can literally take a Mission and a half's worth of time to build up what's gone in a matter of moments.

It's why I end up using Super Dante when I'm just goofing off.

As I said, I have played the game enough to finish it several times, clearly it doesn't stop me playing the game. All I am saying is that it would be better with than it is without.

I'd say that the way the magic (is that what it's called) works sucks. You use it to basically instantly kill a wave of enemies, I'd rather have it usable more often, but not be an instant win for the wave you are on.

 

[Nessy]

I am not ignoring it. I'm saying because its pointless, their is no need, is the enemy a threat, are you going to do something with this particular enemy. For what reason would you want to target this enemy. Just because doesn't cut it, tell me why in that scenario YOU just have to at that precise moment grab that enemy. It is about to attack you, if so you will grab that enemy if you position the stick towards it right before it strikes you (timing matters).

Maybe I am trying to do something that will look cool or stylish, or one of the enemies has more hp so I'd rather not grab it or vice versa, whatever the reason, it is obviously better to be able to choose, rather than the game saying "sorry, one enemy is standing behind the other, you can't attack him".

 

[OppressedWriter]

I would like to reiterate as you seem to be missing this:

Yourself and 2 enemies on a 2D plane. You are in the air, there is an enemy slightly infront of you and on the ground, another enemy behind him and on the ground and at maximum grab range. Why is it a good thing that I can't choose which one I grab?

I have made this it's own post just to get your attention as you seem to be ignoring it every single post.

Yeah, let me add in this scenario, lets say there is lock on, how do you know that when you activate it that Dante will choose the furthest target instead of the closest one, most likely it will automatically lock on to the closer target, and you'd have to toggle to choose the other target.

So, okay, given you have to activate lock on and press toggle if there was lock on to choose the right target, you would agree this would take a second to actually do and not be ideal for fast combat scenarios.

Now, in DmC, you take the same scenario except replace lock on with ebony ivory, you fire ebony ivory and notice dante shoots the closest target so you press toggle, now dante is aiming at the farther target, now you demon pull, voila same thing, except one uses an active move/action for the same function vs something that is a technical system that exists by it self.

P.S. The toggle in the old games was random and not even direction based, DmC is at least 100% true aiming, when using the stick and much more dynamic than it ever was in the previous games.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

rather than the game saying "sorry, one enemy is standing behind the other, you can't attack him".

Not to start some sh!t, but how is this really any different than the classics, or any other game with a hard lock and enemies that can and like to bunch up? If I'm targeting the guy behind another, my stinger/bullets/whatever is still going to slam into the one ahead of him. Body blocking happens no matter what.

On the other hand, is there any particular reason why you aren't also wanting to use the tools at your disposal, like movement techniques that alter your position and vantage point on the enemies?

As I said, I have played the game enough to finish it several times, clearly it doesn't stop me playing the game. All I am saying is that it would be better with than it is without.

The game still works fine, and it is entirely possible to go through a game multiple times without making use of some tools available to you :tongue: I do it all the time in games that either give me dual pistols or a pistol with infinite ammo. Show me a game with one or both of those things and I'll show you a game I beat with mostly only those things, haha.

I'd say that the way the magic (is that what it's called) works sucks. You use it to basically instantly kill a wave of enemies, I'd rather have it usable more often, but not be an instant win for the wave you are on.

"Magic" was just a mainstay term I remember from back in the very first DMC that referenced what powered the Devil Trigger, so I sorta still use it >.<

The only way that I'm usually okay with DmC's Devil Trigger is because it's a wave killer (most of the time). I would have liked the DT to be a power amp like in the classics, but I do understand that since it's such a powerful ability the resource for it has to be something you genuinely covet. Something you know that when you use it, you're not going to have it again for a little while.

 

[OppressedWriter]

The only way that I'm usually okay with DmC's Devil Trigger is because it's a wave killer (most of the time). I would have liked the DT to be a power amp like in the classics, but I do understand that since it's such a powerful ability the resource for it has to be something you genuinely covet. Something you know that when you use it, you're not going to have it again for a little while.

Oh, I somewhat agree with you, I'm just saying that maybe its how I play but I usually have a pretty full bar fairly quickly and I assume its because I use osiris feed and lots of aerial combos, I also know that doing big combos and heavy damage during Devil Trigger significantly slows down the rate at which it decreases.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't I seen this 'jambonessy' on phantombabies?