Revise Mundus Boss Fight; My Thoughts.

[Macabre]

I think Dante and Vergil doing the fusion dance would be a bit too Japanese, which is apparently a bad thing now. Plus if they turned into DmC's Sparda that would probably be a significant power down, seeing as this universe's Sparda was a pansy.

One of the things I liked in 3 was that when Arkham took on the power of Sparda and became an immortal demonic abomination, Vergil and Dante were able to overcome him by working together, showing that by working together the two brothers could overcome a God. DmC has that too, but you don't actually fight alongside Vergil in gameplay, so the effect is slightly diminished.

 

[Ether0]

I think Dante and Vergil doing the fusion dance would be a bit too Japanese, which is apparently a bad thing now. Plus if they turned into DmC's Sparda that would probably be a significant power down, seeing as this universe's Sparda was a pansy.

One of the things I liked in 3 was that when Arkham took on the power of Sparda and became an immortal demonic abomination, Vergil and Dante were able to overcome him by working together, showing that by working together the two brothers could overcome a God. DmC has that too, but you don't actually fight alongside Vergil in gameplay, so the effect is slightly diminished.

Well, while things be "Japanese" is not a bad thing, something like that would be ultra cheesy. Works fine in the context of DBZ or Digimon, but would be awful and out of place in ANY DMC game to be honest. Japanese gaming tropes are no better or worse than western gaming tropes as far as plot is concerned. I do however think most western gaming industry development models are better than Japanese ones but that's besides the point. I think it's just that people have become tired of those same tropes being used over and over again to the point it just becomes predictable and it's just out of style, a lot of the stuff seen in western games like the obsession with buff, macho, white, space marines. I think western and japanese gaming developers just need to either think of new stories to tell, or if they are going to tell one that's been told 1000 times, do it in a new way.

Like FF13, it's story can be found in thousands of different Anime and manga, and what's worst in my opinion, almost every other FF game. They do it because it's familiar and is a proven plot that resonates but in the end how many times can you watch a group of rebels overthrow the church or government lol.

 

[DankestDarkness]

And even then Vergil is pretty inept compared to Dante. The game is meant to make the player powerful, and it does this at the expense of making everyone in the universe except for Dante seem kind of pathetic.

In NT's defence though Classic Mundas didn't have very diverse attacks either if I recall. He fired lasers with his face, smashed platforms with his fists, summoned Orbs to fire mini-lasers at you and summoned a massive dragon made of magma to incinerate you, created shockwaves, summoned homing orb turrets to attack at close range, several different types of plasma attacks AND dropping huge meteors on you, and all this was just one of his three forms. And he did all this while standing in the caldera of a volcano and the only way of hitting him at close range was by leaping over magma onto the fragile, constantly moving platforms.

...Okay nevermind.

It's pretty hard to compare all those moves to the new Mundus cause classic Mundus had a whole bunch of powers and used them and to kill him was no easy task

 

[DankestDarkness]

I think Dante and Vergil doing the fusion dance would be a bit too Japanese, which is apparently a bad thing now. Plus if they turned into DmC's Sparda that would probably be a significant power down, seeing as this universe's Sparda was a pansy.

One of the things I liked in 3 was that when Arkham took on the power of Sparda and became an immortal demonic abomination, Vergil and Dante were able to overcome him by working together, showing that by working together the two brothers could overcome a God. DmC has that too, but you don't actually fight alongside Vergil in gameplay, so the effect is slightly diminished.

In DmC reboot they make Dante a god even Sparda the legend is weak in this game which is a huge disappointment he makes up alot of the story for the DMC of how powerful and legendary he was now he just a lame all he did was run get captured and has no legend behind him

 

[ChaserTech]

In DmC reboot they make Dante a god even Sparda the legend is weak in this game which is a huge disappointment he makes up alot of the story for the DMC of how powerful and legendary he was now he just a lame all he did was run get captured and has no legend behind him

I'll admit, they did make Dante a legend compared to his father. I kinda don't like it because even Vergil, who was near Dante's level in DMC3, was a weakling compared to Dante in DmC. He doesn't do anything substantial other than shooting Lilith with a gun and organizing The Order. The boss battle at the end sorta shows how obvious the gap between Dante's and Vergil's power was.

 

[DankestDarkness]

I'll admit, they did make Dante a legend compared to his father. I kinda don't like it because even Vergil, who was near Dante's level in DMC3, was a weakling compared to Dante in DmC. He doesn't do anything substantial other than shooting Lilith with a gun and organizing The Order. The boss battle at the end sorta shows how obvious the gap between Dante's and Vergil's power was.

Yes that was also a let down vergil was always a little bit ahead of Dante and there battle in DMC 3 was really hard compared to the new DmC Vergil looked to weak they brothers I thought it would at least give a decent close battle but the difference is too much

 

[EvilX-81]

They do it because it's familiar and is a proven plot that resonates but in the end how many times can you watch a group of rebels overthrow the church or government lol.

Maybe just one more time. Sweet Jesus, Breath of Fire 2 was such an awesome kick in the balls.

One of the things I liked in 3 was that when Arkham took on the power of Sparda and became an immortal demonic abomination, Vergil and Dante were able to overcome him by working together, showing that by working together the two brothers could overcome a God. DmC has that too, but you don't actually fight alongside Vergil in gameplay, so the effect is slightly diminished.

Now if they could have looked like they were actually in danger. Even Dante before Vergil appeared was just breathing hard. Which brings me to a side point; I really think P* has forgotten about drama and tension. Dante, Nero, Bayonetta, in the context of their stories, never feel like they're behind the eightball or have to struggle to do anything, and do everything with so much style and flair it becomes sickeningly cheesy to watch over time. And I fear Raiden might even be following down this path. The last villain out of these I think they did particularly well was DMC1 Mundus, who at least got in a few good shots in cutscenes, and Dante wouldn't have had the ability to overcome him if it wasn't for perhaps some luck in getting the complete amulet and releasing the power of his father's sword.

This Mundus was built up well enough n the new DmC; Dante and Vergil made it flat out apparent that they couldn't beat Mundus as is. it just... falls short when the time to actually take down Mundus comes. But atleast they didn't completely undermine everything with Dante casually lulzing about against the game's big bad (DMC4). This Dante actually took the situation rather seriously which gave a little weight to the spectacle of the cutscenes, so I have to give points for that much.

 

[Macabre]

Well, while things be "Japanese" is not a bad thing, something like that would be ultra cheesy.

If you look at what most of DmC's fans say, the game is betterer than the old games because it's not as "anime", whatever that's supposed to mean.

Works fine in the context of DBZ or Digimon, but would be awful and out of place in ANY DMC game to be honest.

I think most ideas can be incorporated into fantasy, it's just a question of execution. Remember in DMC4, where Nero discovers that the Order has been empowering their officers and making those autonomous Angel Armor soldiers by taking demonic souls and forming them into gestalts? That's basically souls fused together to become more powerful, which isn't too far removed from two characters fusing together for power.

...In fact, Nero and Dante getting outraged at the Order using the souls of demons to acquire power smacks of hypocrisy. What about all those Red and Proud souls you twats pinch in order to become more powerful? Pot meet kettle.

I'm not saying that I'd condone the Fusion Dance in DMC by the way, just playing Devil's May Advocate.

Like FF13, it's story can be found in thousands of different Anime and manga, and what's worst in my opinion, almost every other FF game. They do it because it's familiar and is a proven plot that resonates but in the end how many times can you watch a group of rebels overthrow the church or government lol.

It's the story every Final Fantasy tells, but it's a difference of execution that makes 6 a timeless masterpiece and 13 a putrescent mass of sparkling baby vomit.

It's pretty hard to compare all those moves to the new Mundus cause classic Mundus had a whole bunch of powers and used them and to kill him was no easy task

But Donte has access to new powers as well, like Ophion. They could have had Mundas summon meteors, then you lasso them, swing them around your head and smash his face in with them. That would've been badass.

 

[DankestDarkness]

That's would have been badass

 

[Macabre]

Now if they could have looked like they were actually in danger. Even Dante before Vergil appeared was just breathing hard. Which brings me to a side point; I really think P* has forgotten about drama and tension. Dante, Nero, Bayonetta, in the context of their stories, never feel like they're behind the eightball or have to struggle to do anything, and do everything with so much style and flair it becomes sickeningly cheesy to watch over time.

(For context: The tall dude, Max, is being hunted by Leo, the short dude, on suspicion of killing his wife, Ondine and dereliction of duty. Max is a mentor and father figure to Leo)

I know, out of context, but it's impressive that Anarchy Reigns (Which is a pretty flawed game, don't get me wrong) can pull off scenes with some simplistic tragic gravitas occasionally.

BAYONETTA SPOILERS

I don't know how much of Bayonetta you played (And I heartily suggest you complete it rather than listen to a twat like me exposit about it), but at the end of the game Bayonetta loses the final battle and is enslaved by the main villian, Balder, despite trouncing him multiple times in single combat. It is only by virtue of the clemency she granted Jeane and their remembered friendship that Jeane rescued her and averted the eternal rule of a corrupted God.

SPOILERS END

I can see why someone might find the audaciousness of Bayonetta a bit overstimulating and kind of insufferable, but I found it quite artful in a weird way. Bayonetta is a game in which a woman uses her sexuality as a form of empowerment, using her very beauty as a source of ultimate power to destroy a patriarchal, sexless autocracy. While men in fiction become more empowered when they have less clothing...

...women traditionally become more submissive and vulnerable. Bayonetta is the antithesis of that cliche; the woman can kick the everloving crap out of divine stewards when she's wearing less clothing, and can lay out GOD while naked.

And I fear Raiden might even be following down this path.

METAL GEAR RISING SPOILERS

At the end of the prologue in Rising, Raiden is completely trounced and mutilated by Sam, the Desperado Units Iaijutsu specialist. This is what necessitates his cybernetic overhaul, and why he looks so different from how he did at the end of 4. Also the devs have let slip that the game focusses on how this event and the constant battles with the Desperadoes are breaking down Raiden's personality, causing him to revert to the Ripper Persona he had as a child soldier. This is emphasized when his aura turns red and he starts giggling maniacally as he rips people into gory vapour.

SPOILERS END

It's still entirely possible that Platinum could screw it all up completely, but I've a little faith.

You are correct though; Platinum tend to be lousy story tellers. It's not their main focus though.

 

[Ether0]

If you look at what most of DmC's fans say, the game is betterer than the old games because it's not as "anime", whatever that's supposed to mean.

Well DMC only got Super "anime" with DMC4, it's not that it being more anime was a bad thing, it's just that it was super cheesy, generic anime that makes no sense. Being influenced by anime is not a bad thing, bad storytelling is a bad thing.


I think most ideas can be incorporated into fantasy, it's just a question of execution. Remember in DMC4, where Nero discovers that the Order has been empowering their officers and making those autonomous Angel Armor soldiers by taking demonic souls and forming them into gestalts? That's basically souls fused together to become more powerful, which isn't too far removed from two characters fusing together for power.

...In fact, Nero and Dante getting outraged at the Order using the souls of demons to acquire power smacks of hypocrisy. What about all those Red and Proud souls you twats pinch in order to become more powerful? Pot meet kettle.

I'm not saying that I'd condone the Fusion Dance in DMC by the way, just playing Devil's May Advocate.

DMC4 has the weakest, most absurdly dumb story in the original series for a reason



It's the story every Final Fantasy tells, but it's a difference of execution that makes 6 a timeless masterpiece and 13 a putrescent mass of sparkling baby vomit.

Yeah Six took the established plot of young rebels beating the evil empire and perfected by having likeable characters, an excellent story, and new and innovative takes on that concept. FF13 just restated the same story with horribly dumb design choices that covers up all the good stuff the game had going for it.


But Donte has access to new powers as well, like Ophion. They could have had Mundas summon meteors, then you lasso them, swing them around your head and smash his face in with them. That would've been badass.

 

[Sieghart]

Well DMC only got Super "anime" with DMC4, it's not that it being more anime was a bad thing, it's just that it was super cheesy, generic anime that makes no sense. Being influenced by anime is not a bad thing, bad storytelling is a bad thing.

This is exactly what i have been telling to people. I think people should blame the writers instead of the anime that was influenced by it.

 

[Macabre]

Well DMC only got Super "anime" with DMC4, it's not that it being more anime was a bad thing, it's just that it was super cheesy, generic anime that makes no sense. Being influenced by anime is not a bad thing, bad storytelling is a bad thing.

Sorry, it really rubs a cheese grater on by bollocks when people describe things thematically as being like "anime". You can say that something has a cinematic visual style because that implies a certain directorial method, you can't apply "anime" as a descriptive in the same way. Can you even point to an element in DMC4 you'd define as "anime" any more so than the rest of the series? Or am I to presume the adventures of Nero in Fortuna City are reminiscent of Barefoot Gen?

It's horrible, rushed writing that betrays a what could otherwise have been the definitive Devil May Cry game, I...legitimately don't know how to end this sentence without seeming incredibly angry. It's cool.

DMC4 has the weakest, most absurdly dumb story in the original series for a reason

The thing is, claiming the souls of demons is a running theme throughout the series. Practically every new weapon and power in each game comes from something that used to be alive, so it's really aggravating they didn't do anything more intelligent with the idea. It could be that the Order just want to proliferate Devil Arms throughout the world so that mankind can defend themselves against demonic invasions properly without having to rely on one flippant, goofy prankster like Dante, while Dante wants to stop them because he believes it's too risky to world peace.

There was so much missed potential in 4 it makes my teeth hurt.

Yeah Six took the established plot of young rebels beating the evil empire and perfected by having likeable characters, an excellent story, and new and innovative takes on that concept. FF13 just restated the same story with horribly dumb design choices that covers up all the good stuff the game had going for it.

That feel when Final Fantasy may have been incurably ruined forever, and we'll be thirty before Versus 13 comes out, and it'll probably be crap when it does.

 

[EvilX-81]

I don't know how much of Bayonetta you played (And I heartily suggest you complete it rather than listen to a twat like me exposit about it), but at the end of the game Bayonetta loses the final battle and is enslaved by the main villian, Balder, despite trouncing him multiple times in single combat. It is only by virtue of the clemency she granted Jeane and their remembered friendship that Jeane rescued her and averted the eternal rule of a corrupted God.

INCOMING POTENTIAL TL;DR's

Yup, I've played it through. 90% of the time I wanted something to smack the **** out of Bayonetta. The leftover 10% of the time, I wanted to be the one that slapped her.

Yea, Bayonetta technically lost her fight with Balder, but it doesn't look like it's because of what she did, but the whole "right eye of the world" thing kicking in when she sent her younger self back in time. Points to Balder for coming back from her assault though. I guess it could be argued that Balder threw the fight as part of his overall plan, so I guess that's all up toe debate and I will give you this.

Still, then you go on to eventually kick god's ass without seemingly breaking a sweat, and throughout most of the game most of the cinematics imply comfortable amount of ease with max wit to most of the journey.

I can see why someone might find the audaciousness of Bayonetta a bit overstimulating and kind of insufferable, but I found it quite artful in a weird way. Bayonetta is a game in which a woman uses her sexuality as a form of empowerment, using her very beauty as a source of ultimate power to destroy a patriarchal, sexless autocracy. While men in fiction become more empowered when they have less clothing...

...women traditionally become more submissive and vulnerable. Bayonetta is the antithesis of that cliche; the woman can kick the everloving crap out of divine stewards when she's wearing less clothing, and can lay out GOD while naked.

I don't disagree with your premise, but I think in the area of heroic character, they did it in a less than satisfactory way (this actually goes for several of P*'s characters actually in DMC and Bayonetta alike.)

Kicking a god's ass is not going to make me admire you, it's going to make me think the antagonist was a chump or the writers are busy fapping themselves to care about making a character that doesn't come off as Sueish. For me, it's not about how easily they overcome, it's about how TOUGH the goal is to overcome. Asura's Wrath for instance, the Seven Deities, particularly Deus, are established as tough muthafuckers, defeating or putting Asura to his limits several times, to the point that he has to throw caution to the wind and *break himself* in order to defeat them. Taking lumps is not a bad thing, but these games I noted seem to be in love with the Superman paradigm and maximum avatar strength.

Basically, if Bayonetta was put through trials and have to take a lump or two, I wouldn't mind her surly attitude at all. Infact it might have wound up being a plus, a character flaw I could respect. She'd have truly *earned* being an asshole. She would've sweat, she would've bleed, she would've overcome, she would've KICK REAL ASS. Like a *good* male protagonist.

METAL GEAR RISING SPOILERS

At the end of the prologue in Rising, Raiden is completely trounced and mutilated by Sam, the Desperado Units Iaijutsu specialist. This is what necessitates his cybernetic overhaul, and why he looks so different from how he did at the end of 4. Also the devs have let slip that the game focusses on how this event and the constant battles with the Desperadoes are breaking down Raiden's personality, causing him to revert to the Ripper Persona he had as a child soldier. This is emphasized when his aura turns red and he starts giggling maniacally as he rips people into gory vapour.

SPOILERS END

It's still entirely possible that Platinum could screw it all up completely, but I've a little faith.

You are correct though; Platinum tend to be lousy story tellers. It's not their main focus though.

While I wasn't fully aware of those spoilers (thx btw), I have almost no doubt that the overarching plot itself should be well, pretty Metal Gear-ish. However what I'm concerned with is how they're going to handle it. In MGS, there's always this strong tension in most any situation you get into, and when confronting a boss, it just gets DAMNED WORST. They handle this in such a particular way; the Snakes for instance are usually not cracking dry wit, outside of occasional jabber in Codecs, when they confront a boss. They're tense, ready to act or react, and you get the feeling they are taking the situation damn serious, which gives further gravitas to the boss characters, that they will **** YOU UP.

In MSG3 for example, Big Boss gets beat by his his mentor repeatedly (and kinda brutally, who herself is a pretty awesome female character), tortured and imprisoned, loses an eye, and still has to break out to continue the mission. Stuff like that makes me go "Damn! That guy has gone through a lot! He's incredible"

But Raiden on the otherhand in the demo is casually having a snarky conversation with that wolf mech and in the Ripper trailer, is taunting for some cyborg cops, and hurling Metal Gear Ray's. True, it is far too little to judge the pace of the entire game, but... well I'm hoping it'll be more than "I got up-GRAAAAADES! You suck! Woe is me I luv killing! CUT EVERYTHING!!" I mean, it is still Kojima.... Will he have somesort of awesome mental AND physical turmoil to eventually defeat and not merely steamroll? We'll see.

....Just please god don't let this be a Ruroni Kenshin storyline.

I just find it more interesting, a character who doesn't strut through every situation with barely a bruise, but striving through tough, mentally and/or physically demanding situations. Not a Superman, but a Gokou. You can pull off as many crazy stunts as you please, but it's not going to matter much for me if you're not doing it against an equally dangerous antagonist who's pushing you to your limits.

EDIT: Just watched the AR vid. God, that voice acting by the one playing "Max" had me smiling the whole time. May have to pick this up soon.

 

[Ether0]

Sorry, it really rubs a cheese grater on by bollocks when people describe things thematically as being like "anime". You can say that something has a cinematic visual style because that implies a certain directorial method, you can't apply "anime" as a descriptive in the same way. Can you even point to an element in DMC4 you'd define as "anime" any more so than the rest of the series? Or am I to presume the adventures of Nero in Fortuna City are reminiscent of Barefoot Gen?

It's horrible, rushed writing that betrays a what could otherwise have been the definitive Devil May Cry game, I...legitimately don't know how to end this sentence without seeming incredibly angry. It's cool.



The thing is, claiming the souls of demons is a running theme throughout the series. Practically every new weapon and power in each game comes from something that used to be alive, so it's really aggravating they didn't do anything more intelligent with the idea. It could be that the Order just want to proliferate Devil Arms throughout the world so that mankind can defend themselves against demonic invasions properly without having to rely on one flippant, goofy prankster like Dante, while Dante wants to stop them because he believes it's too risky to world peace.

There was so much missed potential in 4 it makes my teeth hurt.

That feel when Final Fantasy may have been incurably ruined forever, and we'll be thirty before Versus 13 comes out, and it'll probably be crap when it does.

Well when i say super cheesy anime, I mean the whole having this plucky rebel, effeminate teenager out on a magical quest to save his unrequited, ambiguous girlfriend, or friend who is a girl that he likes but both are unable to admit their feelings even when they are getting accosted by demons. It's really the same plot that I have seen in so many anime, read in so many manga, and played in so many anime inspired video games. I know I may seem like some random anime hater but trust me i'm not. Then of course you have the other ultra generic trope of the old guy, the veteran mentor type character played by Dante at the ripe old age of 29...

You could say that DMC3 had an "anime" plot line as well as it is essentially Inuyasha the Movie 3 in such a profound way. Not to suggest they copied from Inuyasha as the plot of that movie has been seen in several different forms or media both Japanese and Western, though it's more prevalent in Japanese media, In that game's case it was at least well though out and although the story was not some glorious epic, you could tell that it was at least given some degree of care and thought.

In DMC4 it was just a basic shell of a plot and it does have more to do with Bad writing and rushed production and it's unfortunate. The game had all the elements it needed to be the best action Hack&slash game ever made in terms of mechanics had it waited an extra year to work on everything else, make the game more robust give us different levels, make Dante's and Nero's playthough actually different, work on a better plot, and I have no doubt DmC would not even exist, we would be talking about what we wanted in DmC6 right now. But Capcom chose a different route...

As for FF series, well i don't think any series is beyond repair, I highly doubt Versus13 will make a difference if it ever see's the light of day, but I think Square Enix is at least aware now that they have been on a downward spiral and actually do seem to want to fix that. Though 13 may have been sub-par at best it did introduce a few cool elements and some of it;s characters were actually cool, just stuck in a bad game. I can also appreciate the fact that the 13 side series has given Square the freedom to try some really cool, risky elements with the series in terms of gameplay.