Revise Mundus Boss Fight; My Thoughts.

[Ether0]

I kind of get the feeling that the original idea NT were striking at with Mundas's True Form was that the very city itself becomes a giant monster; an avatar of the society which denies a social outcast like Dante. It could have ended up being a demonic version of Jack Hawksmoor from Stormwatch when he absorbed Tokyo so he could beat up a giant monster version of Kansas City in a huge Kaiju battle.

No really, that happened.

Go read Stormwatch, it's awesome.

Unfortunately the ambition exceeded ability and resources, so Mundas had to have most of his final form just appear to be a mass of tar. It's funny that people compare it to Megatron when I was hoping it would look more like Metroplex.

That would have been really cool and was actually what I was expecting but like most of the boss fights in the game it was just kinda meh. Seems like a missed opportunity and I think NT could look to God of War series if this get's a sequel on how to make truly, epic cinematic boss fights. Say what you want about that series but they do have some truly epic boss fights with 50 foot bad guys.

 

[Zato-OW]

The Mundus boss fight was very bad imo. He was suppose to be the main bad guy and when you fight him its a very lackluster fight. Nothing special about that boss at all. To be 100% honest, the bosses were the worst part about this game. I don't understand how they could screw up boss fights in this game when you have other really good boss fights in the DMC series they could have studied and took notes from. The parry system doesn't help either because you can easily parry an attack and get free hits because of it.

 

[EvilX-81]

I kind of get the feeling that the original idea NT were striking at with Mundas's True Form was that the very city itself becomes a giant monster; an avatar of the society which denies a social outcast like Dante. It could have ended up being a demonic version of Jack Hawksmoor from Stormwatch when he absorbed Tokyo so he could beat up a giant monster version of Kansas City in a huge Kaiju battle.

You know, I was kinda thinking that myself, or that Mundus was going to be throwing the entire city at you somehow. Figured the gigantic wings on the city were going to lead to something.

 

[EvilX-81]

Those are some damned good points, although I personally would avoid reminding people of Spardazilla.

Why is there so much hate for the Savior battle anyway? Not quite clear on it.

Remember the original reveal trailer, when Dante was using Ophion to smack demons about with cars? That could have been so cool, like Hulk: Ultimate Destruction meets Castlevania...

When I saw him do that in the trailer, I liked it. Gave a different feel to him over the past DmCs, being able to throw an opponent or outside objects. Also it looked like he had a trident as well.

 

[Macabre]

You know, I was kinda thinking that myself, or that Mundus was going to be throwing the entire city at you somehow. Figured the gigantic wings on the city were going to lead to something.

And the screams of thousands of people howling hateful insults at Dante, and the other half begging him to save them. A million hands grasping in unison, both in rage and desperation, from beneath a shell that represents their master's dominance over them.

They could have looked at goofy old Mundas, take some simple inspiration from his design and create a Lovecraftian abomination beyond the imagination of Giger.

Ah, I can dream.

Why is there so much hate for the Savior battle anyway? Not quite clear on it.

It's mostly because it's seen as the place-holder villian we got instead of the originally intended storyline, with the climactic rematch with Vergil and all the other things that the devs have alluded to.

When I saw him do that in the trailer, I liked it. Gave a different feel to him over the past DmCs, being able to throw an opponent or outside objects. Also it looked like he had a trident as well.

Now I think about it though, the Ophion kind of looks like Mercer's hook arm from Prototype.

 

[EvilX-81]

And the screams of thousands of people howling hateful insults at Dante, and the other half begging him to save them. A million hands grasping in unison, both in rage and desperation, from beneath a shell that represents their master's dominance over them.

They could have looked at goofy old Mundas, take some simple inspiration from his design and create a Lovecraftian abomination beyond the imagination of Giger.

Ah, I can dream.

I kinda liked that Mundus, at least concept-wise; it's a boring design at first, but then you see all the eyes and lava gore blood whatever coming out of him, so it's kinda like he was hiding his true self inside this fashioned up angelic god statue to give himself a more idealistic look than being err... like, lava and eyes.

Do agree they could have also used some tips from that Mundus for the Mundus we got.

It's mostly because it's seen as the place-holder villian we got instead of the originally intended storyline, with the climactic rematch with Vergil and all the other things that the devs have alluded to.

:blink:Ahh, I see. So you mean Vergil was supposed to actually come back? Is there any websites that detail this abstract information? I know some fan must've cobbled together this pre-DMC4 final product info.

 

[Macabre]

I kinda liked that Mundus, at least concept-wise; it's a boring design at first, but then you see all the eyes and lava gore blood whatever coming out of him, so it's kinda like he was hiding his true self inside this fashioned up angelic god statue to give himself a more idealistic look than being err... like, lava and eyes.

Do agree they could have also used some tips from that Mundus for the Mundus we got.

The hands were my favourite detail. The crawling, chaotic form, that was pure Nylarthotep. Despite being orange.

Sorry but I'm short on linkage at the moment. I'll browse for it later.

 

[Ether0]

Pretty much the only boss battle worth anything in this game was Vergil and even that did not come close to the final Vergil vs Dante fight in 3 in terms of difficulty and just shear enjoyment from beating him. This one was way more visually appealing but could have had a more epic scale or sense of gratitude.

I usually only really like the one on one fights with character like Credo from DMC games but the bigger bosses compared to this giant bosses were a lot better. Shame the creativity in the level design was not carried over into the big boss battles.

 

[Ruisu]

I think we can all agree the boss fights just don't do the rest of this game justice.

 

[EvilX-81]

Pretty much the only boss battle worth anything in this game was Vergil and even that did not come close to the final Vergil vs Dante fight in 3 in terms of difficulty and just shear enjoyment from beating him. This one was way more visually appealing but could have had a more epic scale or sense of gratitude.

I usually only really like the one on one fights with character like Credo from DMC games but the bigger bosses compared to this giant bosses were a lot better. Shame the creativity in the level design was not carried over into the big boss battles.

I enjoyed the Hunter on mission 1. Wish there were more along those lines. Vergil for me is a pain in the ass, but I haven't really sussed out his attacks and openings fully just yet.

I think we can all agree the boss fights just don't do the rest of this game justice.

I can agree with that. Even the Bob Barbas fight could've been a little more than it was, even if it's supposed to be showing the battle from Dante's POV with the demons that people think are humans or whatever.

But in any case, this game shines with how you handle multiple various enemies at once.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

I would've just made it a rock off

 

[Macabre]

Shame the creativity in the level design was not carried over into the big boss battles.

Oh yes. If only we could beat up floating pieces of masonry as well as walk on them...

Sorry, I've never understood how DmC's level design is a redeeming factor. It's just as stock as it was when it showed up in Dishonoured...in fact now I think about it The Outsider looks just like Etnad...

Except more likeable.

The group fighting mechanics are certainly the game's redeeming feature, even if the goons seem apprehensive to hit you most of the time, and the rest of the time you can eternally Ophion juggle them to death without your feet touching the ground.

 

[Ruisu]

The level design was not the most original thing ever, okay. But it was fun as hell (for me at least), and if mundus fight could have the action we had on the stage just before you enter his tower, that would be awesome imo.

And I don't really think this game needs a redeeming feature, since it comes out as a great game overall, or at least, you know, as far as my opinion goes.

 

[Macabre]

The platforming was a massive improvement over the fiddly unintuitive bollocks we've had to put up with in the series so far, but you have to admit that it basically plays itself. There aren't any hazards to evade or use to harm enemies, you just use Ophion whenever the colour-coded blobs appear over bits of scenery and proceed to the next area. It might look nicer than Enslaved, but it's just as easy.

Do you remember after the Trade, when Etnad randomly gained the power to shift to-and-from Limbo whenever he wanted? They could have taken that concept and used it as a late-game mechanic, where you can shift between the two dimensions at will ala Soul Reaver. You could have had a final battle where you had to stop flying debris to use as platforms, then pull down buildings on Mundas's head to stun him.

 

[Ruisu]

The platforming was a massive improvement over the fiddly unintuitive bollocks we've had to put up with in the series so far, but you have to admit that it basically plays itself.

Yeah, mostly eye candy, I had noticed that since the demo. That said, is not essentially bad as it is something that "could be improved".

There aren't any hazards to evade or use to harm enemies, you just use Ophion whenever the colour-coded blobs appear over bits of scenery and proceed to the next area. It might look nicer than Enslaved, but it's just as easy.

I do agree that "environmental" kills should have room for more creativity than throwing demons in some hole on the stage. The first mission had this toy in the park where you could throw some enemies at, but that's about it for variety.

Do you remember after the Trade, when Etnad randomly gained the power to shift to-and-from Limbo whenever he wanted?

I'll have to play this mission again, since for me it looked more like he was in limbo all the time, and the "slow motion/fast motion", was really just an specific scene mechanic and such.

They could have taken that concept and used it as a late-game mechanic, where you can shift between the two dimensions at will ala Soul Reaver. You could have had a final battle where you had to stop flying debris to use as platforms, then pull down buildings on Mundas's head to stun him.

But I don't think he can go to-and-from limbo at any time he wants, since he was pretty much stuck in limbo when inside mundus tower just like always. Like when he and vergil go different ways after meeting up because the path was blocked from limbo.

 

[Ether0]

The platforming was a massive improvement over the fiddly unintuitive bollocks we've had to put up with in the series so far, but you have to admit that it basically plays itself. There aren't any hazards to evade or use to harm enemies, you just use Ophion whenever the colour-coded blobs appear over bits of scenery and proceed to the next area. It might look nicer than Enslaved, but it's just as easy.

Do you remember after the Trade, when Etnad randomly gained the power to shift to-and-from Limbo whenever he wanted? They could have taken that concept and used it as a late-game mechanic, where you can shift between the two dimensions at will ala Soul Reaver. You could have had a final battle where you had to stop flying debris to use as platforms, then pull down buildings on Mundas's head to stun him.

I agree, I think the levels were a lot more fun to play through than the typical Gothic castles and I enjoy the fact they got rid of those resident evil puzzle fetch quest. I think they could have pushed this mechanic a step further or two steps further by making the levels less linear. Even though they have secret stuff off the normal path there is usually only one way to reach your destination. And also by having more hazards to deal with. I think the Trade level showed what could be done with these mechanics to a small degree but could have been elaborated on.

My one issues with that is that this is still a hack and slash game so I am not sure how wise it would be to focus too hard on that stuff.Perhaps on a next gen platform they would have more technology to do more of that kind of stuff without it impacting further development of the fighting mechanics.

 

[Macabre]

I'll have to play this mission again, since for me it looked more like he was in limbo all the time, and the "slow motion/fast motion", was really just an specific scene mechanic and such.

Watch from 4.15 onwards. Dante spontaniously shifts between Limbo and Reality with time dilating back and forth throughout the scene. He doesn't engage Devil Trigger, and it's not a Nephilim power because Vergil is locked into Reality as it happens.

You can't just call a case of characters getting abilities for no reason a "specific scene mechanic". It's traditionally referred to as Awful Writing.

I agree, I think the levels were a lot more fun to play through than the typical Gothic castles and I enjoy the fact they got rid of those resident evil puzzle fetch quest.

Sometimes they did interesting things with that to diversify the gameplay in classic DMC. Remember when you got the imperfect power core in 3, and it drained your health constantly but gave you constant Devil Trigger as a pay off? It took existing mechanics and an environment you had already explored and put a new twist on it to keep things interesting.

Fetch quests can be frustrating, but like escort missions and QTE, it's a question of how the game designer approaches and employs the concept in order to enrich the gameplay experience and even deliver something new occasionally. Just look at RE4.

I think the Trade level showed what could be done with these mechanics to a small degree but could have been elaborated on.

My one issues with that is that this is still a hack and slash game so I am not sure how wise it would be to focus too hard on that stuff.Perhaps on a next gen platform they would have more technology to do more of that kind of stuff without it impacting further development of the fighting mechanics.

Dude, did you play Soul Reaver? Crystal Dynamics was pulling this mechanic off fourteen years ago on the PS1. Tech is no excuse whatsoever, and if you think reality-shifting would inhibit "hack'n'slash" gameplay:

Defiance is basically a DMC game with actual Shakespearean acting. You should play all of Legacy of Kain, it's really good stuff. Except Blood Omen 2, that was kind of mediocre.

 

[Ether0]

Watch from 4.15 onwards. Dante spontaniously shifts between Limbo and Reality with time dilating back and forth throughout the scene. He doesn't engage Devil Trigger, and it's not a Nephilim power because Vergil is locked into Reality as it happens.

You can't just call a case of characters getting abilities for no reason a "specific scene mechanic". It's traditionally referred to as Awful Writing.



Sometimes they did interesting things with that to diversify the gameplay in classic DMC. Remember when you got the imperfect power core in 3, and it drained your health constantly but gave you constant Devil Trigger as a pay off? It took existing mechanics and an environment you had already explored and put a new twist on it to keep things interesting.

Fetch quests can be frustrating, but like escort missions and QTE, it's a question of how the game designer approaches and employs the concept in order to enrich the gameplay experience and even deliver something new occasionally. Just look at RE4.



Dude, did you play Soul Reaver? Crystal Dynamics was pulling this mechanic off fourteen years ago on the PS1. Tech is no excuse whatsoever, and if you think reality-shifting would inhibit "hack'n'slash" gameplay:

Defiance is basically a DMC game with actual Shakespearean acting. You should play all of Legacy of Kain, it's really good stuff. Except Blood Omen 2, that was kind of mediocre.

Oh i've played the Legacy of Kain series, awesome games, some of the best voice acting I have ever heard in a game and a really unique interesting story. Shame that the series has sort of vanished since Defiance. I know that game completed the story but I would have loved to see it return or at least get an HD remake pack or something like that. I will say that Defiance definitely had the best combat in that series but it was nothing to write home about. Still loved the game though, Kain is one of the best "villians" in video game history imo.

As for the old puzzle/ fetch quest stuff, your right, dmc3 did have some that kinda felt unique, like the power core mission but they to me at least felt all the same. They were never really awful or difficult or annoying in any way just kinda meh to me. I'm saying that they are not really missed at all. And it all really does depend on the developer, and I am not too sure NT has the ability to make any that are truly memorable. Enslaved had some of that stuff but it was not really anything special. I think building the combat and platforming pieces were their main focus this time around. Perhaps they could introduce it in a future sequel but I would not trust them to do it in a unique and memorable way, but i've been wrong before, who knows.

 

[Macabre]

Oh i've played the Legacy of Kain series, awesome games, some of the best voice acting I have ever heard in a game and a really unique interesting story. Shame that the series has sort of vanished since Defiance. I know that game completed the story but I would have loved to see it return or at least get an HD remake pack or something like that. I will say that Defiance definitely had the best combat in that series but it was nothing to write home about. Still loved the game though, Kain is one of the best "villians" in video game history imo.

Well the team disolved after Defiance, but the main reason we won't see anymore Legacy of Kain is because Amy Hennig went over to Naughty Dog. Yeah, the lady who wrote Soul Reaver 1/2 and Defiance wrote Jak 3, and I'll never forgive her for that asinine, contradictory plot twist at the very end. At least with Uncharted 3 she has the excuse that she was forced to write her script around really poor level design and event structure. I hear she's freelancing now, so hopefully some day she'll put her mind to something as whacked out and awesome as LoK again.
If you fancy a good read on the process behind Amy's work on Soul Reaver, give this guy a look, he's pretty good.
http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=sr

As for the old puzzle/fetch quest stuff, your right, dmc3 did have some that kinda felt unique, like the power core mission but they to me at least felt all the same. They were never really awful or difficult or annoying in any way just kinda meh to me. I'm saying that they are not really missed at all. And it all really does depend on the developer, and I am not too sure NT has the ability to make any that are truly memorable. Enslaved had some of that stuff but it was not really anything special. I think building the combat and platforming pieces were their main focus this time around. Perhaps they could introduce it in a future sequel but I would not trust them to do it in a unique and memorable way, but i've been wrong before, who knows.

Due to the way that the plot and cinematics were developed separately from the gameplay and mechanics by an entirely different team, you can see why the gameplay does such a poor job of complementing the narrative and telling the story concurrently. The way a good game works is that it establishes it's mechanics and then goes about introducing set-pieces and scenarios that require the player to use the skills they've learned in a new context and adapt. The easy way to do this is to keep adding new enemies with unique abilities and behaviours, but then you get the interesting scenarios like in Uncharted 2 where you had to run from Zoran like a frightened kitten after the entire game has had you basically dominate every enemy you encounter, or when DMC3 had Vergil fight alongside you against SpardArkham.

In DmC you never run from any of the bosses in gameplay, so you never feel intimidated or that Dante is the underdog, which is the whole premise of his character. You never play as or fight alongside Vergil, so you never get an impression of how their relationship is strengthening or that Vergil is a powerful warrior to be respected and feared. Without fully using the interactive medium to tell the story NT has neglected the responsibility of every game designer; to advance the medium and push back it's boundaries.

The thing that's especially bizarre is that NT have used the interactive medium to tell their story in the past. In Heaven Sword the very first scene is Nariko fighting an entire army and being hopelessly overwhelmed, and her strength gradually fails her while you play, going from an unstoppable powerhouse into a frail weakling all within the span of the gameplay. It illustrated her power and vulnerability quite artfully.

 

[Ruisu]

Watch from 4.15 onwards. Dante spontaniously shifts between Limbo and Reality with time dilating back and forth throughout the scene. He doesn't engage Devil Trigger, and it's not a Nephilim power because Vergil is locked into Reality as it happens.

You can't just call a case of characters getting abilities for no reason a "specific scene mechanic". It's traditionally referred to as Awful Writing.

Thanks for the video. I can see clearly now, this is no power of dante, you got it wrong. This is in fact the Limbo shockwave that mundus was sending from his tower. You see, the hell gate has the power to manipulate the border between the real world and limbo, so mundus in this scene sends this shockwave that makes an entire section of the city completely merge with limbo. That effect makes objects and scenery as a whole suffer from a "slowmotion", just like during the stages where everything breaks around you but still some debri float in the air. We also know that things in limbo happens at the same time that in the real world and the same works the other way around, so that slowdown effect could not be Dante phasing into limbo.