Railazel's Ultimate DmC Control Scheme/Gameplay Idea!

[Railazel]

That's the point!!!
That is: How do you maximize deep combat and large instantly selectable weapon variety without limiting the number of weapons?
It may be a good combat system, who knows, but it misses the point of this one. It cannot replace it without creating a whole other set of serious issues.

Now, here's a question for you: Why have alot of weapons when at least 4 is enough?

The point of this scheme is to have a deep system of combat without being dependent on weaponry. Let me put it to you mathematically under these conditions:

3 weapons
1 Combo per weapon
2 Actions per weapon (Juggle and Distance attacks)
3 forms per weapon
Each Weapon is assigned to a Shape button (Triangle, Square, and Circle).

So, each has weapon has one combo. However, with form switching, there are 27 different variations of those individual combos. Now if we include weapon switching (just among those three in the form of combo mixing), then we have 27 different combos between them. Multiply that by the number of variations for each combo, and you have 729 different forms of combos at your disposal. Then if we add the actions as a part of it, there's a total of 18 different actions (6 per weapon/ 3 different juggles and Distance coverers per weapon as due to the three forms). That adds 18 more combos onto the list. And if we add a fourth weapon, that's another 261 combos to add. So 3 weapons total would allow 747 total combos. Four weapons would allow 990 total combos.

(I added the fourth because, initially, I wanted to do calculate each scheme with just three weapons, but I'm deciding to use the total number possible for each scheme.)


Now for DmC under these circumstances:

12 weapons
2 Combos per weapon
2 Actions per weapon

That's a total of 24 combos initially. Factor in weapon- switching mid- combo, that's about 144 combos. Now, add the two actions as a factor and you have a total of 576 combos.

By those numbers, having a total of four weapons with one combo each in my control scheme is almost twice as versatile as having a total of twelve weapons with two combos each, so having a large array of weaponry in my control scheme is unnecessary.

So which would you rather have: 12 weapons with only 576 combos or 4 weapons with almost a thousand?

I think the reason you have to pause is since not all the weapons have the same number of attacks for there basic combo the just used to the pause combo to enable u to switch and continue a combo since all weapons will have a pause combo. But they may find a way around this at some point be its released. You can switch weapons at anytime it seems but your combo will just reset to the 1st hit with the weapon you switched to if not done during a pause i think.

Yeah, someone else said the same thing, so I'm hoping that they could fix that and allow us to finish a basic combo with a different weapon.

 

[Tiran]

Now, here's a question for you: Why have alot of weapons when at least 4 is enough?

The point of this scheme is to have a deep system of combat without being dependent on weaponry. Let me put it to you mathematically under these conditions:

3 weapons
1 Combo per weapon
2 Actions per weapon (Juggle and Distance attacks)
3 forms per weapon
Each Weapon is assigned to a Shape button (Triangle, Square, and Circle).

So, each has weapon has one combo. However, with form switching, there are 27 different variations of those individual combos. Now if we include weapon switching (just among those three in the form of combo mixing), then we have 27 different combos between them. Multiply that by the number of variations for each combo, and you have 729 different forms of combos at your disposal. Then if we add the actions as a part of it, there's a total of 18 different actions (6 per weapon/ 3 different juggles and Distance coverers per weapon as due to the three forms). That adds 18 more combos onto the list. And if we add a fourth weapon, that's another 261 combos to add. So 3 weapons total would allow 747 total combos. Four weapons would allow 990 total combos.

(I added the fourth because, initially, I wanted to do calculate each scheme with just three weapons, but I'm deciding to use the total number possible for each scheme.)


Now for DmC under these circumstances:

12 weapons
2 Combos per weapon
2 Actions per weapon

That's a total of 24 combos initially. Factor in weapon- switching mid- combo, that's about 144 combos. Now, add the two actions as a factor and you have a total of 576 combos.

By those numbers, having a total of four weapons with one combo each in my control scheme is almost twice as versatile as having a total of twelve weapons with two combos each, so having a large array of weaponry in my control scheme is unnecessary.

So which would you rather have: 12 weapons with only 576 combos or 4 weapons with almost a thousand?



Yeah, someone else said the same thing, so I'm hoping that they could fix that and allow us to finish a basic combo with a different weapon.

But, there aren't only 576 combos are there? Because the point of DMC has always been open ended cancel-able game play. There are an infinite number of combos custom created on-the-fly by chaining, canceling and mixing different moves and weapons.

Also, having each attack button also change your weapon for you is ridiculous. Attacking and weapon switching should not be governed by the same function.

Your problem seems to be "I want more combos". Then, use the huge set of upgradable mix and match moves to Make Your Own. The element of self expression in DMC is gone when your entire move-set is pre-made combos when it should be more like a buffet of choice.

On top of that, I'd need an extra thumb to keep up with what I'm doing with your control scheme. In the new game, the only function that requires the movement of the thumb off the stick is to select a new weapon set. Even then, you're selecting three new weapons per d-pad button. Each with a whole new set of skills, combos, moves and upgrades.

There are only so many ways you can swing one weapon, no matter how many combos you think can be made with it. It will get stale very quickly. Remember Ninja Gaiden 3? Variety comes with selection, customization and optional changes.

 

[Railazel]

But, there aren't only 576 combos are there? Because the point of DMC has always been open ended cancel-able game play. There are an infinite number of combos custom created on-the-fly by chaining, canceling and mixing different moves and weapons.

Actually, I got my math wrong. There's actually 216 combos in DmC's control scheme (I mistakenly gave the two actions twelve possible combos when there's only about three available per weapon). Oh, and these aren't including Guns or DPs or ALs, and excluding air combos; just sword ground combos. Now the thing is that none of the DMC games, and including DmC, can give you an "infinite" number of possible combos. In fact, I can give you an exact number of how many combos you can do in each game. So far, I can guarantee you that DMC 3 and 4 gave you the most number of combos out of all the games (due to the Style attacks of each weapon).

Also, having each attack button also change your weapon for you is ridiculous. Attacking and weapon switching should not be governed by the same function.

Actually, they should be. It's more practical. It turns each weapon into a form of "attack," so the two functions are streamlined. Besides, I gave you a seperate weapon switch button anyways.

Your problem seems to be "I want more combos". Then, use the huge set of upgradable mix and match moves to Make Your Own. The element of self expression in DMC is gone when your entire move-set is pre-made combos when it should be more like a buffet of choice.

Actually, you're wrong. I don't want more combos, I want freedom-- complete freedom. I want the ability to do a crap load of things without being limited by one thing or another.

The fact is that having a weapon- based system is limited by the weapons you are given, and since I want as much versatility as possible, having a system dependent on weapons is a fault in my eyes. 12 weapons is just twelve weapons and, like I said, that's not giving you that many options when a game promises you an immense number of possibilities.

I believe that to allow total self- expression in an action game, the game must allow full veratility and customization with as very few limits as possible. This can only be done when the game includes themes that places all control on the player's hands, encouraging creative and necessitating dexterity. The only limit that the game should have is the player's creativity and skill.

Now, you can call me a glutton when I say that DMC just didn't provide enough. The fact that I had a good amount of weapons just wasn't enough, all it did was make me irk at the fact that most of them were unnecessary which severely limited what I could do when I only used what was necessary. No player should feel like that.

Truly, I feel like every weapon should add something new to the table that'll not only give you an advantage in battle, but also give you more versatility, give you more options. Each should be necessitated so that they can live up to their worth.

Trust me when I say that it is not the Quantity but Quality of weapons that gives you freedom, and that's all that I am aiming for.

On top of that, I'd need an extra thumb to keep up with what I'm doing with your control scheme. In the new game, the only function that requires the movement of the thumb off the stick is to select a new weapon set.

I'm just going to make this simple: My control scheme is structured exactly like DmC. So whatever your complaints you have for mine, it'll definitly be the same for DmC.

With that said, let's say that you want to go pro in DmC. That means that you'll have to work your thumbs and index and middle fingers like mad in order to switch between modes and weapons at a quick rate without getting hurt. And I don't know about you, but I don't really want to tire out three fingers just to switch between stuff.

I've tried to minimalize the effort as much as I possibly could. So if you want to go pro using my control scheme, you won't have to worry about tiring out your middle or index fingers, but you still have to work your thumbs like crazy for maximum utilization of weapon and form switching but most (hardcore) gamers work their thumbs like that anyways.

There are only so many ways you can swing one weapon, no matter how many combos you think can be made with it. It will get stale very quickly. Remember Ninja Gaiden 3? Variety comes with selection, customization and optional changes.

No, I didn't not play Ninja Gaiden 3. And you are right, Variety does come with selection, customization, and optional changes, and I'm providing you with alot more than what you are giving me credit for.

So far, it just seems that you equate variety with weapon selection, which I can tell you that there are alot of ways to achieve variety without being dependent on weapon selection. I'm just building on one of those ways.

 

[Tiran]

Actually, I got my math wrong. There's actually 216 combos in DmC's control scheme (I mistakenly gave the two actions twelve possible combos when there's only about three available per weapon). Oh, and these aren't including Guns or DPs or ALs, and excluding air combos; just sword ground combos. Now the thing is that none of the DMC games, and including DmC, can give you an "infinite" number of possible combos. In fact, I can give you an exact number of how many combos you can do in each game. So far, I can guarantee you that DMC 3 and 4 gave you the most number of combos out of all the games (due to the Style attacks of each weapon).



Actually, they should be. It's more practical. It turns each weapon into a form of "attack," so the two functions are streamlined. Besides, I gave you a seperate weapon switch button anyways.



Actually, you're wrong. I don't want more combos, I want freedom-- complete freedom. I want the ability to do a crap load of things without being limited by one thing or another.

The fact is that having a weapon- based system is limited by the weapons you are given, and since I want as much versatility as possible, having a system dependent on weapons is a fault in my eyes. 12 weapons is just twelve weapons and, like I said, that's not giving you that many options when a game promises you an immense number of possibilities.

I believe that to allow total self- expression in an action game, the game must allow full veratility and customization with as very few limits as possible. This can only be done when the game includes themes that places all control on the player's hands, encouraging creative and necessitating dexterity. The only limit that the game should have is the player's creativity and skill.

Now, you can call me a glutton when I say that DMC just didn't provide enough. The fact that I had a good amount of weapons just wasn't enough, all it did was make me irk at the fact that most of them were unnecessary which severely limited what I could do when I only used what was necessary. No player should feel like that.

Truly, I feel like every weapon should add something new to the table that'll not only give you an advantage in battle, but also give you more versatility, give you more options. Each should be necessitated so that they can live up to their worth.

Trust me when I say that it is not the Quantity but Quality of weapons that gives you freedom, and that's all that I am aiming for.



I'm just going to make this simple: My control scheme is structured exactly like DmC. So whatever your complaints you have for mine, it'll definitly be the same for DmC.

With that said, let's say that you want to go pro in DmC. That means that you'll have to work your thumbs and index and middle fingers like mad in order to switch between modes and weapons at a quick rate without getting hurt. And I don't know about you, but I don't really want to tire out three fingers just to switch between stuff.

I've tried to minimalize the effort as much as I possibly could. So if you want to go pro using my control scheme, you won't have to worry about tiring out your middle or index fingers, but you still have to work your thumbs like crazy for maximum utilization of weapon and form switching but most (hardcore) gamers work their thumbs like that anyways.



No, I didn't not play Ninja Gaiden 3. And you are right, Variety does come with selection, customization, and optional changes, and I'm providing you with alot more than what you are giving me credit for.

So far, it just seems that you equate variety with weapon selection, which I can tell you that there are alot of ways to achieve variety without being dependent on weapon selection. I'm just building on one of those ways.

Weapon switching should be up to the player. It should not be automatic. If I want to link rebellion's million stab into Osiris' Prop, I should be able to choose that combo by attacking with one weapon, switching to another with the pull of a trigger, then attacking with another weapon. Hitting xxxy-xx should not do that FOR me. That goes against the open ended combat that DMC is known for. That's not streamlining to switch weapons for you, that's hand holding. Also, there is an automatic mode in DMC games for people to have their hands held and you get laughed at for using it.

The quality of a weapon is subjective. Not everyone cares for the same type of weapons. That's why there should be more types of great quality weapons to choose from. Also, increasing the number of weapons, each with there own modes and move-sets increases the sheer number and variety of move and weapon switches possible in any given encounter. Limiting weapon switching to move specific limits both the potential moves one weapon can have since it shares combos with other weapons, and customization since so much of this system is automatic.

There are only so many ways in which any number of weapons can be swung without repetition, so having a great many combos for few weapons is redundant. On top of all this, you also want to limit freedom having the system choose your weapons for you AND with no freedom and limited customization, weapons and variety, you make the controls MORE complicated?

Expand the system before you try to expand control. You tried to add more to the button controls without adding anything to the game or action games in general to justify it.

You can't preach variety and control and freedom and customization and simplicity when you have a system that goes against those very principles...

...Am I still talking about games?

 

[Railazel]

Weapon switching should be up to the player. It should not be automatic.

But it isn't automatic, so what are you talking about?

Hitting xxxy-xx should not do that FOR me. That goes against the open ended combat that DMC is known for.

You do realize that there is a weapon switch button, right?

That's not streamlining to switch weapons for you, that's hand holding.

No, it's streamlining.

It seems that you're confusing simplicity with hand- holding. Streamlining weapon switching isn't hand- holding since the choice of using those weapons is still up to you.

The quality of a weapon is subjective. Not everyone cares for the same type of weapons. That's why there should be more types of great quality weapons to choose from.

And I agree with you, but not everyone agrees that having alot of weapons makes a game any better.

Also, increasing the number of weapons, each with there own modes and move-sets increases the sheer number and variety of move and weapon switches possible in any given encounter. Limiting weapon switching to move specific limits both the potential moves one weapon can have since it shares combos with other weapons, and customization since so much of this system is automatic.

Yes, I know, I wish I can add more weapons but, alas, I must sacrifice that for a good control scheme.

And may I ask what part of this system is automatic? You still have to press a button to choose the weapon you want, you know that right?

There are only so many ways in which any number of weapons can be swung without repetition, so having a great many combos for few weapons is redundant.

No it isn't, the fact that you have so many makes it fun. I doubt a person can figure out over a thousand combos within a single playthrough.

You see, what makes DMC fun is the fact that you have so much to discover. When you play through the game once, you've only scratched the surface. That's what I'm trying to appeal to. I'm trying to make it so that people can have easy access to these combos but, even if they play the game ten times, they still have stuff to discover. DmC is trying to appeal to that as well, my control scheme just puts what they're doing to another level.

On top of all this, you also want to limit freedom having the system choose your weapons for you AND with no freedom and limited customization, weapons and variety, you make the controls MORE complicated?

Now your argument is conflicted. Is the system complicated or a hand- holder? It can't be both.

Expand the system before you try to expand control. You tried to add more to the button controls without adding anything to the game or action games in general to justify it.

Add more what to the game? I'm just worrying about the control scheme and how deep it can go. I'm not trying to add anything but gameplay depth.

You can't preach variety and control and freedom and customization and simplicity when you have a system that goes against those very principles...

I can preach those principle because my system is based on them.

...Am I still talking about games?

Don't worry, you are.

How about I tell you what influenced my design?

One of the first things that I thought when I played DMC 3 was that it had the qualities of a fighting game. So I turned to games like Tekken, Street Fighter, and DBZ: Budokai to see what kind of fighting system would DMC most like benefit from. As for action games, I turned to Alter Echo and God of War. The challenge was mixing these influences into something that DmC can benefit from. Here are the factors that I figured would benefit DmC:


Dual- Attack System
Fighting games like Tekken and DBZ: Budokai had a system where punches and kicks were on seperate buttons, which allowed for multiple combos to be utilized during battle. I figured that, since DMC had multiple weapons, maybe putting those weapons on the buttons would benefit in the same way.

Multiple Strength System
Alter Echo, God of War, and Street Fighter shared this aspect. Since DMC had weapons that had varying strengths, maybe have a multiple strength system can work for it as well.

Various Modes
This is one of Alter Echo's basic concepts and is a perfect fit for DmC since it had a mode system as well. However, Alter Echo had a weapon- based system, maybe DmC can benefit from such a shift.

Now that I had the influence, I just had to put it in a control scheme that would work while being simple. Here were some earlier candidates:

R2: Demon mode
L2: Angel mode
R1: Sword mode
L1: Gun mode
D- Pad: weapon switch
Square: Weapon 1/Demon pull (no mode)
Triangle: Weapon 2/ Angel lift (no mode)
Circle: Juggle/ Guard (no mode)
X: Jump/Evade

With this, I just simply made some adjustments with the original DmC scheme. However, it would cause some discomfort for people to do any combination of modes. And if I had an Angel and Demon mode, why are Demon pull and Angel lift seperated from them?

So from here, I knew that I had to get rid of two modes which would leave two trigger buttons open. So I decided to look toward the Classic DMC series to fill that up.

R2: Demon mode
L2: Angel mode
R1: Aim
L1: Devil Trigger
D- Pad: weapon switch
Square: Guns/Angel lift/Demon pull
Triangle: Swords
Circle: Juggle/Guard (no aim)
X: Jump/Evade

Same thing again but with an aim and DT button, which would cause the same amount of discomfort as the last one. Plus, I had gotten rid of all the influences from the other games. But I had an epiphany from the Night Club trailer that was recently released. Since Osiris and Arbiter had varying strengths, why not turn Angel and Demon mode into forms of attacks?

L1: DT
R1: Aim
R2: Sword mode
L2: Gun mode
D- Pad: weapon switch
Square: Demon attack/pull
Triangle: Angel attack/lift
Circle: Juggle
X: Jump/Evade

This time, I couldn't think of what to do with the other aspects of DMC like guarding, dashing, etc. and the whole attack system just seemed stale and uncreative. That's when I figured that I forgot about Normal Mode as a form of attack. And I was still stuck with the trigger button issue, so I knew I needed to get rid of the aim button. I figured I might as well fuse it with the two modes, but what was I gonna do with the remaining trigger button? I realized that I needed an aim button, but I needed it to do a seperate purpose than what the new modes were being used for. I thought, "Hey, since people aren't going to be using Sword and Gun mode the entire time, why not use aim for the non- combative parts of the game like platforming?"

R2: Sword Mode/Lock- on
L2: Gun Mode/Lock- on
R1: Aim
L1: DT
D- Pad: weapon switch
Square: Angel Attack/lift
Triangle: Normal Attack/Guard
Circle: Demon Attack/pull
X: Jump/Evade

You would think that this is good enough, but it just didn't go deep enough. I thought that the player would be stuck with just three different attacks for that one weapon. It wasn't fair because it didn't give them the freedom to have whatever attacks they wanted. What if a person wanted two demon attacks instead of just one? But why have two different demon attacks? The only value in that is if they wanted to have two different weapons on the shape buttons. Then that's when I remembered that I wanted to do that in the first place. After that, I made the current system you are currently commenting on.

 

[Stylish Nero]

You know......I'm not so sure whether or not Railazel's combat & control scheme is more effective than NT but I have to admit....I don't get the gun & sword mode idea....actually I get it but why must you waist 2 good buttons like that...so If i'm not holding down those 2 buttons I can't do any function & I'm already locked-on.......sounds rather limiting....DMC gave you the option to lock-on & auto-lock(if done right.....damn DMC2) can be just as effective as lock-on(I mean Bayonetta was able to do it & many say that is better than DMC gameplay wise)......BUUUUUUTTTTT with a Gun & Sword mode you can actually switch between Gun & Sword weapons separately sorta like Angel & Demon weapon switch using the d-pad so then that is like 16 weapons(although where would Dante get 3 other sword weapons....Yamato, Red Queen, those useless DMC2 swords, or......).

Heh....I'm just getting over this...ohhh I might wanna make a new combat/control scheme for future DMC titles(not DmC) for Dante & mostly Nero.

 

[Railazel]

You know......I'm not so sure whether or not Railazel's combat & control scheme is more effective than NT but I have to admit....I don't get the gun & sword mode idea....actually I get it but why must you waist 2 good buttons like that...so If i'm not holding down those 2 buttons I can't do any function & I'm already locked-on.......sounds rather limiting....

Actually, if you don't use Sword or Gun mode, you go into Non- Combat (can't think of a better name) mode where you do stuff that is meant more for platforming and defending yourself like dashing, blocking, pulling, grabbing, etc. So after you finish a fight and go into a platforming segment, you would go into Non- Combat mode to do platforming like swing off of ledges or dash from one place to another. Or if you want to block, you just get out of whatever mode you're in and press the Block button (kind of wish I would've made that more accessible in either mode, but what can you do, eh?).

BUUUUUUTTTTT with a Gun & Sword mode you can actually switch between Gun & Sword weapons separately sorta like Angel & Demon weapon switch using the d-pad so then that is like 16 weapons(although where would Dante get 3 other sword weapons....Yamato, Red Queen, those useless DMC2 swords, or......).

I tried that idea, doesn't actually work when you consider the comfort factor.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Actually, if you don't use Sword or Gun mode, you go into Non- Combat (can't think of a better name) mode where you do stuff that is meant more for platforming and defending yourself like dashing, blocking, pulling, grabbing, etc. So after you finish a fight and go into a platforming segment, you would go into Non- Combat mode to do platforming like swing off of ledges or dash from one place to another. Or if you want to block, you just get out of whatever mode you're in and press the Block button (kind of wish I would've made that more accessible in either mode, but what can you do, eh?).



I tried that idea, doesn't actually work when you consider the comfort factor.

I get the above statement but what about a comfort factor?

 

[Railazel]

I get the above statement but what about a comfort factor?

Some people don't like having to simultaneously press two triggers that are on the same side.

 

[Tiran]

But it isn't automatic, so what are you talking about?


Dual- Attack System
Fighting games like Tekken and DBZ: Budokai had a system where punches and kicks were on seperate buttons, which allowed for multiple combos to be utilized during battle. I figured that, since DMC had multiple weapons, maybe putting those weapons on the buttons would benefit in the same way.

Multiple Strength System
Alter Echo, God of War, and Street Fighter shared this aspect. Since DMC had weapons that had varying strengths, maybe have a multiple strength system can work for it as well.

Various Modes
This is one of Alter Echo's basic concepts and is a perfect fit for DmC since it had a mode system as well. However, Alter Echo had a weapon- based system, maybe DmC can benefit from such a shift.

Now that I had the influence, I just had to put it in a control scheme that would work while being simple. Here were some earlier candidates:



With this, I just simply made some adjustments with the original DmC scheme. However, it would cause some discomfort for people to do any combination of modes. And if I had an Angel and Demon mode, why are Demon pull and Angel lift seperated from them?

So from here, I knew that I had to get rid of two modes which would leave two trigger buttons open. So I decided to look toward the Classic DMC series to fill that up.





Same thing again but with an aim and DT button, which would cause the same amount of discomfort as the last one. Plus, I had gotten rid of all the influences from the other games. But I had an epiphany from the Night Club trailer that was recently released. Since Osiris and Arbiter had varying strengths, why not turn Angel and Demon mode into forms of attacks?



This time, I couldn't think of what to do with the other aspects of DMC like guarding, dashing, etc. and the whole attack system just seemed stale and uncreative. That's when I figured that I forgot about Normal Mode as a form of attack. And I was still stuck with the trigger button issue, so I knew I needed to get rid of the aim button. I figured I might as well fuse it with the two modes, but what was I gonna do with the remaining trigger button? I realized that I needed an aim button, but I needed it to do a seperate purpose than what the new modes were being used for. I thought, "Hey, since people aren't going to be using Sword and Gun mode the entire time, why not use aim for the non- combative parts of the game like platforming?"



You would think that this is good enough, but it just didn't go deep enough. I thought that the player would be stuck with just three different attacks for that one weapon. It wasn't fair because it didn't give them the freedom to have whatever attacks they wanted. What if a person wanted two demon attacks instead of just one? But why have two different demon attacks? The only value in that is if they wanted to have two different weapons on the shape buttons. Then that's when I remembered that I wanted to do that in the first place. After that, I made the current system you are currently commenting on.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an admirable try, but it's over complicated. Not to be confused with complex. Complexity has to do with depth and complication is in reference to difficulty of comprehension.

I shouldn't have to choose a mode AND a power AND a weapon BEFORE I even attack. That takes too much time, attention, button pressing and focus away from the action. Then, on top of that, I can't instantly switch to my weapon of choice. With your system, I have to scroll through the weapon selection past all the ones I don't need or want, to the one I do. Also, the attacks themselves change the weapon's form when you hit the separate attack buttons. That means there won't be two separate attacks for one weapon as the weapon will be flashing back and forth, from light to heavy attacks- Arbiter to Osiris- as I perform my combos. It should not be this way. Especially since the weapons separate functions cancel each other out and reset my combo. Angel weapons send you airborne, while demon weapons are heavy slow hitters. Either you have two combo-based attack types for that don't change a weapon's functions or forms (like Bayonetta, Ninja gaiden) or just one time-based attack button and save the other for instant special moves, like... Oh, Devil May Cry.




It's a clustered, over complicated system.

 

[Railazel]

I shouldn't have to choose a mode AND a power AND a weapon BEFORE I even attack. That takes too much time, attention, button pressing and focus away from the action. Then, on top of that, I can't instantly switch to my weapon of choice. With your system, I have to scroll through the weapon selection past all the ones I don't need or want, to the one I do. Also, the attacks themselves change the weapon's form when you hit the separate attack buttons. That means there won't be two separate attacks for one weapon as the weapon will be flashing back and forth, from light to heavy attacks- Arbiter to Osiris- as I perform my combos. It should not be this way. Especially since the weapons separate functions cancel each other out and reset my combo. Angel weapons send you airborne, while demon weapons are heavy slow hitters. Either you have two combo-based attack types for that don't change a weapon's functions or forms (like Bayonetta, Ninja gaiden) or just one time-based attack button and save the other for instant special moves, like... Oh, Devil May Cry.

If you don't understand my system then just say so and I'll do my best to explain, but don't criticize it with faults that it doesn't even have. You're just saying all this out of ignorance of how the system actually works.

Not only that, but your argument's not even consistent. Is it too complicated or is too hand- holding? Choose one.

 

[Tiran]

I

If you don't understand my system then just say so and I'll do my best to explain, but don't criticize it with faults that it doesn't even have. You're just saying all this out of ignorance of how the system actually works.

Not only that, but your argument's not even consistent. Is it too complicated or is too hand- holding? Choose one.

I never said it was hand-holding. I said the button layout was over complicated and the auto weapon change was limiting freedom. My argument was that this system doesn't fix the problems of existing systems, it adds whole new problems. It requires too much movement and button pressing to operate. I also said the inability to instantly get to a certain weapon was a step back from the new system. You have too much to do to get into the mode you want to fight in. Sword or Gun mode, then angel or demon mode, then the weapon. You're the one who can't see it. I'm sorry, but you didn't come up with the greatest control scheme ever here like you think.

 

[Railazel]

I
I never said it was hand-holding.

That's not streamlining to switch weapons for you, that's hand holding.

the auto weapon change was limiting freedom.

the inability to instantly get to a certain weapon was a step back from the new system.

Your argument is conflicted. I would suggest you get your argument straight before you continue. Besides, I've already placed arguments that you're not even addressing. How about you debunk this:

I'm just going to make this simple: My control scheme is structured exactly like DmC. So whatever your complaints you have for mine, it'll definitly be the same for DmC.

 

[Tiran]

Your argument is conflicted. I would suggest you get your argument straight before you continue. Besides, I've already placed arguments that you're not even addressing. How about you debunk this:

Your system isn't the same at all.Or you would not be touting it's superiority.

You've made no arguments whatsoever. You only reiterate your system's features and make statements like " My system is the same as..." Or something like "I want freedom and flexibility in game-play" and then show no proof of how this works with your system as opposed to other combat systems. You give no proof of how this works in specific situations. Stop making subjective statements.

If your system is easier to control, gives freedom and is open ended while also expanding on current themes, prove it with examples of how it would be the same situations as the current combat system.

In your system, the weapons, abilities and powers are each separate selection functions. If your system was the same, what's the point in it? You haven't streamlined anything. You've overblown it. I didn't say your system as I now understand it is hand holding, I said auto weapon selection was hand holding. You said your system changed your weapons form as you attacked. That's a totally different and wholly new problem now.
DmC has allocated weapons abilities and powers under three modes each accessible with the flick of release of a trigger. Your system is not that simple. simplicity of controls makes controlling the game easier, and therefore you can focus on actually playing it, not fighting the commands. That's the point of streamlining.

Also, auto weapon switching and instant weapon switching is not the same. Auto switching is when the game switches a weapon for you while performing an action or command not linked to weapon switching (like attacking). Instant is when you can go directly to the tool of your choice at will.

My argument is not conflicted. It's clear. Unlike your confusing, convoluted system, It's faults very clear in it's own incomprehensibility.

My issues are:

1. With your system, I can not select the weapon I want without scrolling or cycling through all the weapons in-between. With the NT system, I can.

2. Demon- Angel Weapon switching should not be attached to attack buttons. If I'm in Demon mode, All my weapons should instantly be Demonic and vice-versa for Angel mode. If there are two types of attack- a light and heavy form of attack- It should be that way for each weapon, thus increasing that weapons' move set. It should not change my weapon into an angel or demon weapon for me while I attack. If I choose to switch weapons, there should be a separate function for that where I can change to another weapon at will instantly. (like NT's system does)

3. Having to switch to demon power, then, gun mode, or sword mode, or angel power, then gun mode and then still have to choose a different mode to use traversal abilities is too much. why can't similar abilities be allocated under the three separate powers easily accessible by flicking a trigger? In fact, if you can also make it so weapons, powers and abilities are all accessible under the two triggers, why not?

4. Also, the single button style or insta-launcher attack is completely omitted.

But, I don't want to drag this out or make an enemy, so the point is, it's flawed. PM me if you want to talk.

 

[Railazel]

Your system isn't the same at all.Or you would not be touting it's superiority.

It has the same skeleton as DmC's (well, not exactly the same since the Main Modes are on R1 and L1, but you get my point), so the dexteral workings of both are similar though mine's require less dexterity.

You've made no arguments whatsoever. You only reiterate your system's features and make statements like " My system is the same as..." Or something like "I want freedom and flexibility in game-play" and then show no proof of how this works with your system as opposed to other combat systems. You give no proof of how this works in specific situations. Stop making subjective statements.

If your system is easier to control, gives freedom and is open ended while also expanding on current themes, prove it with examples of how it would be the same situations as the current combat system.

With that said, let's say that you want to go pro in DmC. That means that you'll have to work your thumbs and index and middle fingers like mad in order to switch between modes and weapons at a quick rate without getting hurt. And I don't know about you, but I don't really want to tire out three fingers just to switch between stuff.

I've tried to minimalize the effort as much as I possibly could. So if you want to go pro using my control scheme, you won't have to worry about tiring out your middle or index fingers, but you still have to work your thumbs like crazy for maximum utilization of weapon and form switching but most (hardcore) gamers work their thumbs like that anyways.

Let me put it to you mathematically under these conditions:

3 weapons
1 Combo per weapon
2 Actions per weapon (Juggle and Distance attacks)
3 forms per weapon
Each Weapon is assigned to a Shape button (Triangle, Square, and Circle).

So, each has weapon has one combo. However, with form switching, there are 27 different variations of those individual combos. Now if we include weapon switching (just among those three in the form of combo mixing), then we have 27 different combos between them. Multiply that by the number of variations for each combo, and you have 729 different forms of combos at your disposal. Then if we add the actions as a part of it, there's a total of 18 different actions (6 per weapon/ 3 different juggles and Distance coverers per weapon as due to the three forms). That adds 18 more combos onto the list. And if we add a fourth weapon, that's another 261 combos to add. So 3 weapons total would allow 747 total combos. Four weapons would allow 990 total combos.

(I added the fourth because, initially, I wanted to do calculate each scheme with just three weapons, but I'm deciding to use the total number possible for each scheme.)


Now for DmC under these circumstances:

12 weapons
2 Combos per weapon
2 Actions per weapon

That's a total of 24 combos initially. Factor in weapon- switching mid- combo, that's about 144 combos. Now, add the two actions as a factor and you have a total of 576 combos.

By those numbers, having a total of four weapons with one combo each in my control scheme is almost twice as versatile as having a total of twelve weapons with two combos each, so having a large array of weaponry in my control scheme is unnecessary.

So which would you rather have: 12 weapons with only 576 combos or 4 weapons with almost a thousand?

In your system, the weapons, abilities and powers are each separate selection functions. If your system was the same, what's the point in it? You haven't streamlined anything. You've overblown it. I didn't say your system as I now understand it is hand holding, I said auto weapon selection was hand holding. You said your system changed your weapons form as you attacked. That's a totally different and wholly new problem now.
DmC has allocated weapons abilities and powers under three modes each accessible with the flick of release of a trigger. Your system is not that simple. simplicity of controls makes controlling the game easier, and therefore you can focus on actually playing it, not fighting the commands. That's the point of streamlining.

You are correct, weapons and forms are no longer alligned, so they have to be selected. What you fail to see is that that's my intention. And so that it wouldn't be a hindrance to the player, I made sure that system was easy to remember and everything was as easily accessible as possible. Alligning the weapons to a specific form, instead of giving players the option to pick out what form they want the weapon to be in, doesn't really do anything except limit the gameplay.

Also, auto weapon switching and instant weapon switching is not the same. Auto switching is when the game switches a weapon for you while performing an action or command not linked to weapon switching (like attacking). Instant is when you can go directly to the tool of your choice at will.

But my system allows instantaneous weapon switching, so what's the problem?

Unlike your confusing, convoluted system, It's faults very clear in it's own incomprehensibility.

Again, its not that complicated. You persist on saying so, but I have given every reason on why it's not. Trust me when I say that there are more control schemes more complicated than this. There are games with systems so convuluted that it takes a person with immense time on their hands to remember them. And you forget that I did immense research and took some good deal of time on this. So, when I say that its not that complicated, it is not that complicated.

1. With your system, I can not select the weapon I want without scrolling or cycling through all the weapons in-between. With the NT system, I can.

Weapon switching is instantaneous due to the fact that 3 weapons can be placed on the Shape buttons. A fourth weapon can be switched with any of the other three at any given time to do a two- weapon switch much like in DMC 3.

2. Demon- Angel Weapon switching should not be attached to attack buttons. If I'm in Demon mode, All my weapons should instantly be Demonic and vice-versa for Angel mode. If there are two types of attack- a light and heavy form of attack- It should be that way for each weapon, thus increasing that weapons' move set. It should not change my weapon into an angel or demon weapon for me while I attack.

While any weapon can be placed on to a button, the button itself is alligned to the three forms. However, you can switch between three forms whenever you want and whatever weapon you switch to would automatically be in the form you chose for that button. So if you have the Square button as your Demon form button, any weapon assigned to Square will automatically be in Demon form.

3. Having to switch to demon power, then, gun mode, or sword mode, or angel power, then gun mode and then still have to choose a different mode to use traversal abilities is too much. why can't similar abilities be allocated under the three separate powers easily accessible by flicking a trigger? In fact, if you can also make it so weapons, powers and abilities are all accessible under the two triggers, why not?

I think you have the order mixed up. Angel, Normal, and Demon forms are forms only for weapons, so you only use those forms in either Gun or Sword mode which you access by pressing a trigger button. Basically, there are no Angel or Demon modes you have to select to get to, just forms for weapons.

As for the other abilities, I wanted those to be readily accessible to the player without having to place them under a specific mode. Since DmC adds platforming as a stronger element, I wanted that part of the game to have a specific place on its own without having to be dependent on modes to be accessible. Also, since I wanted to expand on the platforming of DmC's, I added an extra element to its AL/DP system that, if I used DmC's current control scheme, wouldn't be able to fit without replacing either the Gun or Juggle button. My heaviest regret is not being able to streamline Blocking into the combat modes, but I can't figure out a way of doing that without going back to square one.

4. Also, the single button style or insta-launcher attack is completely omitted.

Sorry about that, but I never really liked the whole "juggle button" thing anyways. I don't like having buttons with just one attack to them.

But, I don't want to drag this out or make an enemy, so the point is, it's flawed. PM me if you want to talk.

Now do you really think I'm that childish? To make an enemy from something like this?

Now, my system is far from perfect, I know that, so saying that it's flawed is a rather redundant statement. But some of the faults that you see just aren't there, and I gave you explanations on why they are not. The only way that this can continue is if you continue saying the same thing, which I don't mind as I like debating.

Any further discussion must be done here for it is only appropriate to talk about something in its proper place. It'll be no different than me PMing you, so I might as well keep the discussion here.

 

[asurai]

@Azel&Tiran: I do not mean to be trying to act the part of a moderator, however... It is clear that you two are of opposing opinions and likely one will not be swayed. This is only natural, for most people, though. I say this because perhaps if Azel would allow us to discuss alternatives to what we believe would also be alternative control schemes and not only his own this could be a rather intriguing thread. Perhaps discuss the prospect of being able to change key bindings for the PC version and what it could mean for those who use a gamepad on PC games. Does this seem good to the both of you?

 

[Railazel]

@Azel&Tiran: I do not mean to be trying to act the part of a moderator, however... It is clear that you two are of opposing opinions and likely one will not be swayed. This is only natural, for most people, though. I say this because perhaps if Azel would allow us to discuss alternatives to what we believe would also be alternative control schemes and not only his own this could be a rather intriguing thread. Perhaps discuss the prospect of being able to change key bindings for the PC version and what it could mean for those who use a gamepad on PC games. Does this seem good to the both of you?

I was hoping that other people would post their own ideas here, but no one had done so. I guess I forgot to mention that.

 

[Tiran]

I was hoping that other people would post their own ideas here, but no one had done so. I guess I forgot to mention that.

Nuthin but luv for you Raz. Don't get me wrong. (Bro-fist)

 

[Stylish Nero]

Hey Rai somewhere here or another thread didn't you had the idea of a portable divinity statue?

 

[darkslayer13]

I was hoping that other people would post their own ideas here, but no one had done so. I guess I forgot to mention that.

you wanted to see other people's ideas. well why didn't you just say so.

this doesn't have quite as many features as yours but it seems a bit more accessible and is closer to the existing control scheme:

(based on Xbox 360 controls)
LT= Angel Mode (Human Mode) Devil Trigger (Demon Mode)
RT= Demon Mode (Human Mode) Angel Trigger (Angle Mode)
LB= Angel Lift (Angel Mode/Human mode) Royal Guard (Demon Mode)
RB= ??? (Angel Mode) Demon Pull (Human Mode/Demon Mode)
Y= Basic melee attacks
X= Guns (Human mode) Advanced melee attacks (Angel Mode/Demon Mode)
A= Jump/Roll (Human Mode) Angel Evade (Angel Mode) Demon Evade (Demon Mode)
B= Launcher (eg. High Time)
up+B= dash attacks (eg. Stinger )/ Falling attacks (eg. Helmbreaker ) (while in air)
down then up+B= AOE attacks (eg. Inferno)/ air dash attacks (eg. Calibur)
start= pause
back= taunt
D-Pad=select weapons ;similar to Bayonetta you create sets of weapons in the pause menu and switch between them during gameplay (except you have 5 sets instead of 2) it seems like the easiest way to select 4 different types of weapons and eliminates cycling.
LS= switch target (for when the soft lock-on picks the wrong thing)
RS= center camera

moving Evade to A creates room on LB and RB and removes the redundancy of two evade buttons. putting Angel Lift and Demon Pull on the shoulder buttons creates room on X creating a place for the advanced melee moves. making Angel Lift and Demon Pull work in Human Mode solves the problem of difficulty pressing two shoulder buttons on the same side.

the Advanced melee moves function like an improved version of swordmaster and as an extra button for combos.

the Royal Guard moves are basically the same as DMC4 except without Dreadnought (i can't think of a good way to incorporate it and it isn't really necessary )

Moving Devil Trigger to LT gives that button a use during Demon mode and creates room for an Angel Trigger with the opposite command.

i would like to know what everyone thinks of this idea and would like to hear any suggestions for what to do with RB in Angel Mode.