And there is no right or wrong about opinions.
Opinions
can be misinformed, either by misinterpretation or misunderstanding, which can make them wrong. That is a cold, hard fact.
''Yeah sure, she was shot while defenseless, but why is this even an issue? Because it's "not cool"? It's not supposed to be, but it still served a purpose. It was a conniving b!tch getting what was coming to her, delivered by a guy who was just as, if not more, conniving as her. Just desserts, really.''
Holy... I seriously had to quote this. It's not because it was ''not cool'', but because it was immoral. You think there is no problem with killing a child that may not even technically be evil? To snatch its life away from it? You assume Lilith didn't care about Mundus's child, but only about the 'good life' she had with Mundus. Well, it was her child too... so how can we just assume this? The fact that new Vergil killed her and the child just to bait Mundus is insane. It's even worse when you consider that Vergil took pleasure in it and waited for Lilith to notice he had shot her womb out. Dante thought it was insane when it happened too, judging from his reaction.
Like I said in my previous post, they could probably have taken her and the child hostage. And yeah, I'm sure new Vergil was supposed to be portrayed this way, but was that the point in this thread? All I know is that Innsmouth said it made Vergil unsympathetic, and yeah, I totally agree with that.
Anyway, I just wanted to say I was amazed by your comment.
It's not my assumption that Lilith didn't care about the child, she says exactly that right after you defeat her. She has zero interest in the child beyond something that allows her to work her way up the hierarchy. The fact that it is a child is not at all important to her beyond the fact that Mundus wanted a kid, and she could give him one. She cried not for the loss of a child, but the loss of a ticket to the good life. She sent the thing out to
fight Dante just before the Trade, and berated the thing for its uselessness.
Vergil's seconds-long smirk is perfectly in line with where they were going with his character. He had a plan, he wanted to stick to it, and in the end he got what he wanted. "All according to plan", as it were. Does it make him unsympathetic? Sure, but that's sort of the point, as the story progresses, we're supposed to call into question Vergil's actions, and when all is finally revealed, it sheds new light on all of his actions before, where you can see plain as day his selfishness, and his willingness to sacrifice the weak and stupid humans for his goals, even
Kat.
And Dante was surprised not because they killed a child, but because Vergil reneged on their agreement, and put Kat's life in danger, after they had argued over whether to use Lilith and the child as bait for Mundus, or in trade for Kat.
I don't believe you, but who cares anyway... after these two replies, I'm really done talking.
Like I said, if Vergil wanted to kill Lady, she would be dead. Vergil is a son of Sparda. He's a demon who is lightning-fast and can kill demons that are faster than ordinary humans within a second. The Yamato is an incredibly sharp sword - so sharp it can 'cut through dimensions'. I know, that makes no sense since dimensions have nothing to do with the physical world... but one of the DMC games clearly stated that the Yamato is capable of cutting through anything. You really think Lady stopped Vergil from killing her just because she held up her bazooka? LOL. Besides, if he were just some ordinary murderer, he would've killed her before. He did meet her once before, remember?
So yeah... don't bother replying, I'm not going to respond again. No offense intended, I'm just really tired.
Lady and Vergil's very first encounter was when she interjected during Dante and Vergil's second duel. Upon doing so, she was almost cut in two by Vergil, but she managed to block the blow and then Dante grabbed his attention. Then they all got their asses handed to them by Jester/Arkham.
Vergil kills those in his way or those he deems no longer useful to his plan. The only people he ever passed up was Dante after their first bout, on the suggestion of Arkham, and Lady when he walks past her in the library, because she is not at all in his way.
Neither does DmC Vergil? What do you mean? My point is that new Vergil kills without needing to kill. He has no regard for life. Old Vergil at least seems to realize that he doesn't have the right to end innocent lives. He knows he doesn't have the right to kill everything he doesn't like. I know Lilith is not innocent, but she is not very dangerous either... and yet new Vergil killed her. Totally uncalled for and immoral. It doesn't matter if killing Lilith ''had a point''. Hitler's gassing of the Jews had a point too, but that does not make it any less reprehensible. It's immoral, and frankly, I find it insane.
And this is how you make a villain. They do bad things for reasons you can't comprehend. Too often we romanticized our villains into these characters that can be likable in their own right, where downplay their actions specifically for their more righteous reasons. However, that's not what being a villain is about - they are conflict personified, something for us and audience to rally with the protagonists against. Their actions justify their position as a villainous character, someone to find contempt in, to want to see their plans fail and the heroes triumph over.
*I never said the tower was raised in an unpopulated area. I said that we don't know if humans were killed when the tower was raised. You assumed human were killed. I can't assume that.
This is tricky because, yeah sure while anything is possible, common sense and logic would dictate that many people were hurt and/or killed by the raising of the tower; either by the subsequent deluge of demons in the city, or the fact that the tower erupts from the ground, demolishing blocks-worth of buildings that people invariably occupy. Which we know they do because Dante mentions hoping people made it away safely when you survey some of the wreckage outside his shop.
Nothing outweighs life. Nobody has the right to end another person's life just to fulfill a goal. These people have basic human rights, and in DMC, even demons do. Even the act of sacrificing one person against his/her will to save millions is morally objectionable, even though the end result is positive.
Your morals have very little bearing on how a fictional character goes about achieving their intended goals. While something might be seen as reprehensible, and probably very much is, the intent isn't for you to feel good about what they do. A hero does admirable things because he is the hero, a villain does morally reprehensible things because he is a villain.
The discussion was about old Vergil vs new Vergil, and the debate had devolved into whether the old Vergil is morally reprehensible like new Vergil based on his actions. I say he is not. It may be that he is apathetic towards others' lives. But the fact is that in DMC3 he doesn't kill anyone who doesn't warrant to be killed. New Vergil does. That's all that matters in this case.
So where is the line to be drawn, honestly? It's okay for Vergil to kill people himself and let people die because he's apathetic, but it's not okay for DmC Vergil to murder when it's necessary for his plans. It's extremely easy to argue that classic Vergil felt that the loss of others' lives was necessary for his own plans. If, as you say, "
nothing outweighs life", then why is it not just as morally reprehensible that classic Vergil would just let people die in the process of him achieving his goals?
Both Vergils made willing sacrifices out of humanity for their end goals, while also indiscriminately murdering any demons that got in their way. I don't mean to sound aggressive, but this is sorta coming off as a double standard.
And like I said, if Vergil wanted to kill Lady, he had at least two opportunities to do so. He is lightning-fast. He has a blade that can cut through almost any material. According to one DMC game (I think) it could cut through anything. If you really think Lady managed to keep Vergil from killing her by holding up her bazooka... well that seems hilarious to me. Even if Vergil were exhausted, he could probably still cut clean through her bazooka. Lady is also a full human, so ordinarily she wouldn't even have enough speed to counter Vergil's attacks.
This falls into the realm of DMC's "rule of cool" physics convenience. We see many things happen throughout even just DMC3 that contradict itself. Dante is able to run fast enough down Temen-ni-gru to heat up colliding air molecules, but never does he reach such speeds at other points when it would be incredibly helpful. Vergil cuts through a few magically imbued bullets, but also can't cut through Rebellion or Kalina Ann. Dante can stab a million times in several seconds, and the brothers can seemingly swing their swords fast enough to create an air bubble that suspends rain, but why can they not use that same speed elsewhere? Things are done to look cool, but often contradicts what abilities they intend them to display.
I would also argue that Vergil himself isn't incredibly fast, his hands are - explicitly when using iaido, which is his signature style. He can teleport, but that's not speed, that's matter displacement, and when he uses Yamato in any other way that isn't iaido, it's often no faster than Dante's swings. Dexterity does not translate into full body speed.
However, the big thing is that not believing it doesn't make the evidence of something on the contrary disappear. If Vergil truly could have sliced Lady in two, through Kalina Ann, wouldn't he have? Why would he have bothered to turn his attention to her, knocking Dante aside for the express purpose of giving him a clean swing at her. She blocks the blow, they struggle against each others weapons, they exchange a few words, and then Dante intervenes. Vergil came at Lady with the intent to kill, but the only thing that saved her was her blocking, and then Dante a moment later.
If Vergil was tired and weak from his battle with Dante, then sure, that's some good evidence to support why he couldn't, and hey, he was subdued by Arkham, who specifically planned on getting the Sons of Sparda to weaken each other. However, that doesn't do anything to disprove that Vergil specifically went at Lady, knocking Dante aside so he could.
