Illuminating DmC Controversy

[Drake]

People still don't get it, Capcom, NT, game journalits, have been playing us. They divided the community to sell this game.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Tameem Antoniades role
He has been disrespectful.

Here he talks about fans as if they are source of creative bankruptcy when his company has been tasked to create a established GAMEPLAY (DMC gameplay). And who other than developers knows this gameplay? The fans.
http://www.gamesthirst.com/2012/03/...ck-leads-to-creative-bankruptcy-ninja-theory/
But he goes on and makes this stupid statement. If fans are the people you need to listen to, to create a great DMC gameplay or a DMC game, why do you go out and express yourself this way about fans? Your not in a situation where your creating a new IP - which gives you great freedom to do what you want. So again, why?


Here Tameem calls Trish from Devil May Cry for a prostitute with a big gun:
http://www.vg247.com/2012/03/22/tameem-antoniades-and-the-trouble-with-tits/

Here he says Dante isn't cool anymore, and that he would get laughed out:
http://www.destructoid.com/ninja-theory-old-dante-isn-t-cool-anymore-184600.phtml
Which is ironic don't you think? There are a "easter egg" of with a white hair wig, a "devil trigger" with white hair + red coat AND a DMC 3 DLC costume.
And throughout DmC cutscenes NT's Dante does stuff that Dante does.

He has been disrespectful. DmC supporters won't agree, and will instead sugar coat it and say "Yeah he did bad PR for DmC" or "It's unfortunate" or something along the lines of it. I've seen few DmC supporters be straightforward and say "Yeah he disrespected Dante!".

I'm sorry, but this stuff is misleading.

The first article talks about creative bankruptcy but there are more factors to what he's talking about. They were tasked with making a specific game, and there are points where fan feedback helps, and other points where it doesn't. There's a lot to the development process we as just plain gamers don't see, and you can't accommodate for every bit of feedback. It's like when people complained about the hair (yeah, old hat by now, roll with me), and cried for it to be changed back to white, but internally, the developers knew they couldn't accommodate for that because of the story calling for him to have black hair that changes to white at the end. Another example would be feedback on difficulty - they couldn't rightly just tune up all the difficulty if one entire point of the game was to have a lower entry difficulty for newcomers. Or feedback about taunts - while I still think they could have figured out a way to get them in, the idea to remove them still made some sense, if they had kept in taunts the way the normally were, you'd have this narrative-breaking element in a game that was aimed at also having a greater emphasis on its narrative. They screwed the pooch on that one, but I think you get what I mean :/

And, being someone who actually creates content, his philosophy is sound to me. There's only so much feedback that is actually useful and still meshes with the intended product. Take on too much and you can lose sight of what the entire thing was supposed to be, and it just ends up being a hodgepodge of junk that tried to appease too many different sides and failed.

The way you reveal that first article is as if Tameem said that fan feedback is all useless and causes creative bankruptcy, when he's saying nothing of the sort, but is instead talking about his design philosophy and how he needs to trust in what he's doing, and not depend solely on what others want or what he thinks others want, specifically in order to make something sell well. Even the title of the article is "Too much fan feedback leads to creative bankruptcy," emphasis on the "too much," meaning that feedback is still okay, but too much can turn things sour. Which...is indeed true, as too much of anything is bad, since "too much" means over the acceptable amount :/

There's also the fact that almost no feedback is virtually universal. Not everyone agrees with what everyone else is saying, so conflicting feedback can end up ruining more than it tries to fix. Someone could say that a lower entry difficulty is a bad idea, while another might say there's nothing wrong with it. Who's right? Who's wrong? At that point, it's almost safer to not explicitly follow and just continue with the intended design.

In the second article, nowhere is anyone calling Trish a "prostitute with a big gun." Granted, Trish is a pretty generic "tits 'n' heels" action movie female who fits the bill, but it's not some targeted attack on her, but those types of depictions of females in general. Not to mention, he is sorta right that you can make people like a character without having to give them overt sex appeal.

In the third article, talking about Dante not being "cool anymore" is based around the things that were so popular and cool in early 2000s that made up Dante (gothic themes, heavy rock, and even the anime archetypes Dante takes after) aren't all that popular anymore, and he's right, they sadly aren't. Right now it literally is about gritty realism, independent rock and synthesized music, and the popular anime is all about different -ndere girl types instead of all those badass hero types :/

Also, him "being laughed out" is talking about Dante's classic, flamboyant design not fitting with the contemporary setting they had in place for DmC. They dressed Dante in clothes that looked like stuff people actually wore, and didn't make him standout so much on the street. And having a little wig joke is suddenly a huge jab, even though it's ironic because by the game's end he's got a full white hair anyway? C'mon.

But that's where the irony ends, giving him a "classic color" DT is just...whatever, I dunno, it's a nice little nod to the character's classic roots, and yeah, an easter egg. But it wasn't his default design of having that white hair and flaming red coat, so it doesn't run counter to their original intention of Dante looking more like a normal person you could pass on the street without paying too much mind. Then, his DMC3 costume is supposed to be a post-game bonus (despite it being available at launch for PC users), just something extra you can go through the game again with, a nice little treat to the fans who would want a costume like that. It's an afterthought that still doesn't run counter to the original design intentions, and isn't part of the character's "official" design for the narrative.

And so he does stuff like the classic Dante - where's the problem with that? The idea is that DmC Dante's attitude is essentially the classic's, but altered by the experiences that affected the newer version. DmC Dante does a lot of things classic Dante does, but there's also more anger and raw aggression because of how Dante grew up in the DmC universe.

Tameem hasn't really been disrespectful at all, unless it was to people who disrespected him first, but here you're just twisting the words around, taking them out of context, and actually putting words in his mouth. Because he talks about being careful not to take too much feedback to prevent ruining the intended design, he's obviously saying that fan feedback is useless. Because he talks about there being a better way to attract people to a female character besides tits 'n' heels that make her look like a prostitute with big bun, he's obviously talking explicitly about Trish, and not every other female character in almost every action thing ever. Because he talks about Dante's classic designs being out-of-date and overly flamboyant for their contemporary, downplayed setting in DmC, he's obviously insulting people and contradicting himself with post-game content that has no bearing on the initial narrative.

Give me a break :/

All in all, people are being way too ****ing critical. Some companies made a game, people like it, others don't. This literally happens all the time, but normally people don't waste so much effort being so overly sensitive.

 

[Nero.]

People still don't get it, Capcom, NT, game journalits, have been playing us. They divided the community to sell this game.

It's been obvious for quite sometime people just don't care.

 

[ToCool74]

Did any of the supporters read my earlier post?

This is a guy who made a name for himself around here because of his hate for the game.

He was banned last year If I remember correctly.

Your not going to get through to him so it would be best to ignore this topic.

Don't feed into it by trying to defend.

 

[Judgement]

Funny how the old fans are now calling DMC2 a masterpiece. #ridiculous

I hope you didn't get me wrong. I was just re-affirming how people felt about dmc2 and it was a joke I was replying to too >.> I love everything about devil may cry including the new one; like I've said before I'm just glad a new one came out ^^

 

[Nero.]

Did any of the supporters read my earlier post?

This is a guy who made a name for himself around here because of his hate for the game.

He was banned last year If I remember correctly.

Your not going to get through to him so it would be best to ignore this topic.

Don't feed into it by trying to defend.

I'm not seeing how that magically undermines the effort he put into the OP.That's just straight up wrong and besides I haven't seen one valid argument why people defend and like this game now is the time.

 

[Shin Muramasa]

People still don't get it, Capcom, NT, game journalits, have been playing us. They divided the community to sell this game.

It's been obvious for quite sometime people just don't care.

 

[Nero.]

:/ ..............

 

[ToCool74]

I'm not seeing how that magically undermines the effort he put into the OP.That's just straight up wrong and besides I haven't seen one valid argument why people defend and like this game now is the time.

It doesn't undermine it, I'm sure he put a lot of thought into it, but the fact remains that he is a banned member who is known for hating this game and is back under a new name making topics of this manner which will surely get a rise out of the supporters around here.

I'm merely trying to keep this from getting out of hand by asking some of the supporters to not even bother defending.

Simple request that I'm sure may go unheeded anyway.

 

[Chancey289]

Image>Your Laptop Confirmed.:troll:


So in other words you can't refute the points made in the OP.


I expected better from you.:/

I can but it's so long and dumb I don't even want to.

 

[GF9000000Returns]

I hope you didn't get me wrong. I was just re-affirming how people felt about dmc2 and it was a joke I was replying to too >.> I love everything about devil may cry including the new one; like I've said before I'm just glad a new one came out ^^

Yeah I got it.

People still don't get it, Capcom, NT, game journalits, have been playing us. They divided the community to sell this game.

Oh really? Cuz I've been hearing a lot of good feedback from people who hated the game at first, plus me enjoying after saying I know I'll enjoy the game a couple years ago.

Did any of the supporters read my earlier post?

This is a guy who made a name for himself around here because of his hate for the game.

He was banned last year If I remember correctly.

Your not going to get through to him so it would be best to ignore this topic.

Don't feed into it by trying to defend.

Thanks for the heads up! Aaaand now I'm out! *speeds off*

 

[Onecrazymonkey1]

Image>Your Laptop Confirmed.:troll:


So in other words you can't refute the points made in the OP.


I expected better from you.:/

There is a lot I can agree with in his post no doubt and I mean no disrespect by what I said. There are plenty of haters on both sides of the fence and people shouldn't generalize people who love the game or hate it but on every forum I go to there are endless threads like this from both sides. I don't know, I was pretty ****ed about mass effect 3's ending but I certainly didn't linger on about it like some of the fan base, maybe I'm short sighted but I guess I'll never see the point. If I disappointed you sorry, but I can't help my feelings on it. All in all you seem like a reasonable guy, so I'll just agree to disagree with you about some things

 

[Drake]

Yeah I got it.


Oh really? Cuz I've been hearing a lot of good feedback from people who hated the game at first, plus me enjoying after saying I know I'll enjoy the game a couple years ago.

Ok so someone can say they don't like the game and not have someone just call them a whinner and say your're only mad about the hair , or say they like it and not have people trash them for it.

 

[Macabre]

Dat diatribe

Your heart's in the right place brother, but you need to work on your technique. You need to represent the contrary opinion more respectfully and admit when they're right in order for your perspective to appear genuine. By breaking up your paragraphs into so many broken sentences, you aren't doing your opinions proper justice either. Pay more attention to grammar and spell checking if you want people to take your opinions as gospel. Another good move would be to incorperate more links to articles that back up your claims too.

All in all, 5/10, better than mine.

not to mention false information, "THE WEBSITES HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED BY THE EVIL POWERS OF CAPCOM AND NINJA THEORY, HURR DURR DURR" yeah, and i'm a flying moose

Well, there have been some very thought provoking revelations and observations about the worrying proximity that publications have with publishers nowadays.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-10-24-lost-humanity-18-a-table-of-doritos

It's not right to go throwing accusations of corruption around willy-nilly, but you can't ignore the trends either.

Anyway, on topic. With Tameem being disrespectful, I think it has to do more with how the community reacted more than him being a snooty jackass. The guy's been sent death threats, troll messages, hate mail, insulted by so many people, etc. If you were in his position wouldn't you be agitated and frustrated? And I know that he's the "face" of DmC, but he's human and Ninja Theory compared to many other developers such as Kojima Productions, Nintendo, Naughty Dog, Insomniac Games, Level-5, Square Enix, etc. is like a child compared to them. So it's no wonder that he and his company aren't used to things like this. Plus, he's pointing out things in his own point of view, and while it's his own vision, that doesn't mean he's right or wrong. It's his opinion, even if it sounds snarky. Did he screw up with what he said, definitely. But does that mean he is overall a total ass, no. I always hated that, whenever someone famous says something, it's blown out of proportion or made into such a big deal. And when someone not famous says something, no own gives a damn. We're all humans, famous or not. No one is some damn god/goddess to be worshiped.

It's common practice for any person whose career depends on decent public relations that they always maintain a dignified veneer. Any individual who mishandles their appearance in these cases is typically heaped with scorn by the wider public, but for some reason when Antonaides does things like intentionally ostracise and insult a large amount of his target userbase it's something laudable.

http://bitmob.com/articles/should-developers-listen-to-their-fans

A single errant comment or slipped nipple can and frequently does destroy the career of an individual who has the public eye. It's part of their responsibilities to maintain their image and ingratiate themselves with the public to protect their work.

Oh, and super serious thing, well look at about 70% of the games made during this generation. Super serious generic military brodudes, super serious female leads *cough* Lightning *cough*, super serious, super angry Kratos, super serious Gabriel Belmont, super serious Spheesse Mahrines, super serious Mario - just look at his hard, cold-blooded stare, a killer unleashed - super serious Batman who was super serious to begin with - Why so DAMN SUPAH SERIOUS?! -, super serious Ryu Hayabusa, and super serious, mute, cyber-brosif Crysis 2 main-protagonist-named-Alcatraz-but-no-one-gives-a-damn.

That's a big part of Classic Dante's appeal and why the remake was poorly conceived fromt the get go. Playing a flamboyant character is vicarious escapism that people crave, and the Spectacle Action genre is best complimented by characters with extroverted, larger than life personalities. There's a reason that the leader in this genre is a hypersexualized lollipop quaffing witch who spends her time storming the Vatican.


The ludicrous is in this genre's blood. If you ground it in down-to-earth characters, you kill it. There's nothing wrong with experimentation, but it should really be left to the professionals.

Funny how the old fans are now calling DMC2 a masterpiece. #ridiculous

...are they? Where?

 

[ChaserTech]

I really, REALLY hate the fact that people keep thinking this game is horrible.

No, it's not horrible. It's a good game with stunning visuals and an interesting combat system for newcomers of the DMC franchise. And the story is pretty decent as well.

But is it a great DMC game? In my opinion, no. Why? Because it doesn't offer new things in terms of gameplay other than increased platforming and longer airtime when executing combos. That's about it. Other stuff, including weapons and moves, are only recycled elements within the DMC series.

I'll just leave this here.

It's sad that every journalist/review that I see of DmC always resort to the white hair. It's getting extremely old.

Is the dude who made this thread for real? A prime example why the Devil May Cry fanbase is now one of the worst gaming fandoms out there. So much in this post was just so stupid that I can rip you a new one but you sound so dumb I don't think I should even bother.

You know, you don't sound too smart either by saying the TC's post was stupid without explaining why.

 

[Chancey289]

I'm sorry, but this stuff is misleading.

The first article talks about creative bankruptcy but there are more factors to what he's talking about. They were tasked with making a specific game, and there are points where fan feedback helps, and other points where it doesn't. There's a lot to the development process we as just plain gamers don't see, and you can't accommodate for every bit of feedback. It's like when people complained about the hair (yeah, old hat by now, roll with me), and cried for it to be changed back to white, but internally, the developers knew they couldn't accommodate for that because of the story calling for him to have black hair that changes to white at the end. Another example would be feedback on difficulty - they couldn't rightly just tune up all the difficulty if one entire point of the game was to have a lower entry difficulty for newcomers. Or feedback about taunts - while I still think they could have figured out a way to get them in, the idea to remove them still made some sense, if they had kept in taunts the way the normally were, you'd have this narrative-breaking element in a game that was aimed at also having a greater emphasis on its narrative. They screwed the pooch on that one, but I think you get what I mean :/

And, being someone who actually creates content, his philosophy is sound to me. There's only so much feedback that is actually useful and still meshes with the intended product. Take on too much and you can lose sight of what the entire thing was supposed to be, and it just ends up being a hodgepodge of junk that tried to appease too many different sides and failed.

The way you reveal that first article is as if Tameem said that fan feedback is all useless and causes creative bankruptcy, when he's saying nothing of the sort, but is instead talking about his design philosophy and how he needs to trust in what he's doing, and not depend solely on what others want or what he thinks others want, specifically in order to make something sell well. Even the title of the article is "Too much fan feedback leads to creative bankruptcy," emphasis on the "too much," meaning that feedback is still okay, but too much can turn things sour. Which...is indeed true, as too much of anything is bad, since "too much" means over the acceptable amount :/

There's also the fact that almost no feedback is virtually universal. Not everyone agrees with what everyone else is saying, so conflicting feedback can end up ruining more than it tries to fix. Someone could say that a lower entry difficulty is a bad idea, while another might say there's nothing wrong with it. Who's right? Who's wrong? At that point, it's almost safer to not explicitly follow and just continue with the intended design.

In the second article, nowhere is anyone calling Trish a "prostitute with a big gun." Granted, Trish is a pretty generic "tits 'n' heels" action movie female who fits the bill, but it's not some targeted attack on her, but those types of depictions of females in general. Not to mention, he is sorta right that you can make people like a character without having to give them overt sex appeal.

In the third article, talking about Dante not being "cool anymore" is based around the things that were so popular and cool in early 2000s that made up Dante (gothic themes, heavy rock, and even the anime archetypes Dante takes after) aren't all that popular anymore, and he's right, they sadly aren't. Right now it literally is about gritty realism, independent rock and synthesized music, and the popular anime is all about different -ndere girl types instead of all those badass hero types :/

Also, him "being laughed out" is talking about Dante's classic, flamboyant design not fitting with the contemporary setting they had in place for DmC. They dressed Dante in clothes that looked like stuff people actually wore, and didn't make him standout so much on the street. And having a little wig joke is suddenly a huge jab, even though it's ironic because by the game's end he's got a full white hair anyway? C'mon.

But that's where the irony ends, giving him a "classic color" DT is just...whatever, I dunno, it's a nice little nod to the character's classic roots, and yeah, an easter egg. But it wasn't his default design of having that white hair and flaming red coat, so it doesn't run counter to their original intention of Dante looking more like a normal person you could pass on the street without paying too much mind. Then, his DMC3 costume is supposed to be a post-game bonus (despite it being available at launch for PC users), just something extra you can go through the game again with, a nice little treat to the fans who would want a costume like that. It's an afterthought that still doesn't run counter to the original design intentions, and isn't part of the character's "official" design for the narrative.

And so he does stuff like the classic Dante - where's the problem with that? The idea is that DmC Dante's attitude is essentially the classic's, but altered by the experiences that affected the newer version. DmC Dante does a lot of things classic Dante does, but there's also more anger and raw aggression because of how Dante grew up in the DmC universe.

Tameem hasn't really been disrespectful at all, unless it was to people who disrespected him first, but here you're just twisting the words around, taking them out of context, and actually putting words in his mouth. Because he talks about being careful not to take too much feedback to prevent ruining the intended design, he's obviously saying that fan feedback is useless. Because he talks about there being a better way to attract people to a female character besides tits 'n' heels that make her look like a prostitute with big bun, he's obviously talking explicitly about Trish, and not every other female character in almost every action thing ever. Because he talks about Dante's classic designs being out-of-date and overly flamboyant for their contemporary, downplayed setting in DmC, he's obviously insulting people and contradicting himself with post-game content that has no bearing on the initial narrative.

Give me a break :/

All in all, people are being way too ******* critical. Some companies made a game, people like it, others don't. This literally happens all the time, but normally people don't waste so much effort being so overly sensitive.

This. He pretty much covered how I feel right here.

 

[Chancey289]

I really, REALLY hate the fact that people keep thinking this game is horrible.

No, it's not horrible. It's a good game with stunning visuals and an interesting combat system for newcomers of the DMC franchise. And the story is pretty decent as well.

But is it a great DMC game? In my opinion, no. Why? Because it doesn't offer new things in terms of gameplay other than increased platforming and longer airtime when executing combos. That's about it. Other stuff, including weapons and moves, are only recycled elements within the DMC series.



It's sad that every journalist/review that I see of DmC always resort to the white hair. It's getting extremely old.



You know, you don't sound too smart either by saying the TC's post was stupid without explaining why.

Just read what TwoXAcross posted. That's pretty much what I would have responded with. Completely agree with that. The original poster is just a fanatical butthurt baby and evidently from what I picked up he was banned a while back from this forum because he started crap like this. He's on his way to getting banned again I guess.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Just read what TwoXAcross posted. That's pretty much what I would have responded with. Completely agree with that.

Hey now, don't you drag me into this. Can't a guy type a wall of text without it getting all agreed with an' sh*t? Dayum! /sarcams

The original poster is just a fanatical butthurt baby

I don't agree with this statement.

and evidently from what I picked up he was banned a while back from this forum because he started crap like this. He's on his way to getting banned again I guess.

This statement I do.

 

[Nero.]

Just read what TwoXAcross posted. That's pretty much what I would have responded with. Completely agree with that. The original poster is just a fanatical butthurt baby and evidently from what I picked up he was banned a while back from this forum because he started crap like this. He's on his way to getting banned again I guess.

Why do you feel the need to say this was this really needed?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

People just get upset sometimes, and say hurtful things they don't mean. It doesn't mean we don't love you, Nero.