Has Devil May Cry spoiled us in the hackn'slash genre?

[Chancey289]

Sure, DMC4 has a very simple love theme going on, but it's just used as a plot point, not as an amazingly profound part of the story. The writers of DMC4 did NOT try hard to create a good love story.
''Like Nero and his cardboard cutout love interest really is something to focus on''
That's just it: it's not something to focus on, and it wasn't meant to be. DMC4 is about Nero, and his journey to find himself, or rather to accept that he's a demon. Kyrie is not the least bit important (which is why she's absent for the largest part of the story). They just wanted to create a love story as a plot point, for Kyrie to get captured, etc. Anyone can see that it's not meant as a deep love story: their goal was to create a simplistic love story that served the overall plot.

DMC1's story was no better than DMC3's. They both tell a simple story, and I don't see why DMC1 is suddenly the holy grail here. You often criticize DMC3 and DMC4, but really, DMC1 is in most respects no better. It also has pretty shallow characters, and the whole thing with Trish and Dante was pretty mediocre too. When I play DMC1 today, it stands out as a worse game than DMC3, and not just because it's older. So maybe you're letting nostalgia cloud your judgment.

''It (DmC) doesn't spend as much time on a plot as those two games do.''

So... the amount of time spent on a plot = the amount of effort spent on the plot? It doesn't work that way. DMC4's cutscenes are often pretty drawn-out, yeah, but that doesn't mean they spent a lot of effort on the plot. The writers of DMC4 weren't ''trying too hard'', they simply decided to make their (very simple) plot points as impressive as they could... which is the whole point of cutscenes. Why the hell would you blame them for that?

I'm not talking about the effort put in to the storytelling when it comes to how that somehow interferes with the gameplay. Which is why I mention the time frame, because I don't see how in any other way would the emphasis to just improve on characters, dialogue, and plot somehow stopped the game from reaching its gameplay potential.

An overabundance of cutscenes (like Metal Gear can do even though I love that series) is what think of when it comes to the accusation of the emphasis on story undercutting gameplay time.

And dude, Itsuno was stressing the fact that DMC 4 would be the best game in the series when it came to storytelling and wanted to craft what he thought would be a great movie with the cutscenes. The whole addition of Nero and his love interest was also their attempt at attracting more females to the series. (this is how they freaking think)

And it all falls apart. I'm not saying DmC is the best thing I've ever seen. It's far from it, but it is the best narrative in the series thus far with more well rounded characters and an actual coherent plot. It was able to do that and the game is still some fun Devil May Cry shizz I like because I, you know, dig Devil May Cry.

A lot of you totally dismiss any shortcomings the original series has in the plot department as somehow intentional like you don't want to admit that it just sucked. And if there's still no solid explanation behind it, it's also just how DMC "was never about story". Then why bother even f#cking putting one trying to add all these different plot points? Might as well just have Dante go in some gothic castle with a rescue the princess story and just have at it.

 

[Demi-fiend]

A lot of you totally dismiss any shortcomings the original series has in the plot department as somehow intentional like you don't want to admit that it just sucked.

This. Every time someone brings up the DMC series, this is always the first thing that comes to mind.

 

[Jak]

Has Devil May Cry spoiled us in the hackn'slash genre?

Uhm, NO.
Because believe it or not DevilMayCry isn't the only hack/slash game in existence.
I get what you're saying but not everyone sees DevilMayCry as the be all & end all of the hack/slash genre.
YES it gave gamers something to shoot for with style rankings but not everyone cared, that's like saying all gamers care about trophies or achievements.
We've had games like
Dynasty Warriors
Black Knight Sword
Afro Samurai
Otogi: Myth of Demons
Onimusha: Warlords
OneeChanbara
Heavenly Sword
Golden Axe: Beast Rider
Dante's Inferno
Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders
Killer Is Dead
Rise of the Kasai
Chaos Legion
Castlevania
And many many more.
I know this is a DevilMayCry forum but as i said before DevilMayCry isn't the be all & end all of the hack/slash genre.

To me i think what spoils ME was when games in general did reward gamers with in unlockable content, not some ridiculous trophy/achievement.

woah there. please don't hang me. yeah. i should've worded my question differently. i was only saying that beacause devil may cry was my introduction to the HnS genre. i'm not saying that i enjoy other titles less, i'm just saying i feel more "at home" while playing DMC/DmC.
anyways thats my bad. sorry

 

[Chancey289]

To actually answer the forum question, it did kind of set a standard of action games for me to some extent. Thanks to Devil May Cry, I really like these fast and furious combat systems. Which is why I really had a tough time having fun with games like Dark Souls and stuff because it was just boring to me.

Not saying it makes me not enjoy a lot of games. Hack n slash is not even my favorite genre. If I had to pick favorite genres then it would probably be platformers and horror. I'm an avid horror fan, and I really really love games like Banjo Kazooie. That's one of the greatest games ever.

 

[Lord Nero]

I'm not talking about the effort put in to the storytelling when it comes to how that somehow interferes with the gameplay. Which is why I mention the time frame, because I don't see how in any other way would the emphasis to just improve on characters, dialogue, and plot somehow stopped the game from reaching its gameplay potential.

An overabundance of cutscenes (like Metal Gear can do even though I love that series) is what think of when it comes to the accusation of the emphasis on story undercutting gameplay time.

And dude, Itsuno was stressing the fact that DMC 4 would be the best game in the series when it came to storytelling and wanted to craft what he thought would be a great movie with the cutscenes. The whole addition of Nero and his love interest was also their attempt at attracting more females to the series. (this is how they freaking think)

And it all falls apart. I'm not saying DmC is the best thing I've ever seen. It's far from it, but it is the best narrative in the series thus far with more well rounded characters and an actual coherent plot. It was able to do that and the game is still some fun Devil May Cry shizz I like because I you know, dig Devil May Cry.

A lot of you totally dismiss any shortcomings the original series has in the plot department as somehow intentional like you don't want to admit that it just sucked. And if there's still no solid explanation behind it, it's also just how DMC "was never about story". Then why bother even f#cking putting one trying to add all these different plot points? Might as well just have Dante go in some gothic castle with a rescue the princess story and just have at it.

I don't know how it interferes with the gameplay either, I can only speculate that they've got a certain budget, and that putting less effort into the story might give them more money left for the gameplay. But I don't know if that's how it works -- like I said, just speculation.
That part of the discussion was started by xMobilemux, not me.

I responded to this part of what you said, and this is the main topic: ''Dude, I see it's trying too hard to actually get a better plot going, but failing.''

''Itsuno was stressing the fact that DMC 4 would be the best game in the series when it came to storytelling and wanted to craft what he thought would be a great movie with the cutscenes. The whole addition of Nero and his love interest was also their attempt at attracting more females to the series. (this is how they freaking think)''

Yes, that was the plan. I also know that failed, because DMC4 was rushed due to time constraints. That's probably why there's so much backtracking. As for Kyrie, I already said that I believe it was never meant to be a profound love story -- it was just used as a plot point to get the story rolling. It's about Nero and his quest to find himself, and Kyrie is not the slightest bit important. She serves as a way for the bad guys to manipulate Nero, and she serves to reinforce the idea that Nero is still 'human' when he accepts his demon side. That's pretty much it.

''I'm not saying DmC is the best thing I've ever seen. It's far from it, but it is the best narrative in the series thus far with more well rounded characters and an actual coherent plot.''

How is DMC3's plot (or DMC4's) not coherent? They make perfect sense, and they work. Just because they're not the deepest stories we've seen with the best characters doesn't mean they're incoherent.

''A lot of you totally dismiss any shortcomings the original series has in the plot department as somehow intentional like you don't want to admit that it just sucked.''

I never dismissed the fact that DMC4 doesn't have a great story, or that it's got backtracking, so I don't see what you're talking about here. I never ignored any flaws, but I can also acknowledge that these developers don't do things quite the way modern western developers tend to. DMC3 and DMC4 have simple stories, and they were meant to be simple, in my view. But when they decide to make impressive cutscenes to go with that simple story, suddenly DMC4 ''tried too hard''? Come on.
I can appreciate games with simple stories and deep gameplay. I can also appreciate games with mediocre gameplay and deep stories. You apparently can't appreciate games with simple stories and good gameplay. Not my problem. You're acting like DMC3 and DMC4 have terrible stories -- they don't. DMC is about a superhero-like guy who fights evil f*ckers who want to take over the world, it's not some masterpiece of storytelling, never was. That doesn't mean it's terrible.

 

[Lord Nero]

''A lot of you totally dismiss any shortcomings the original series has in the plot department as somehow intentional like you don't want to admit that it just sucked.''

And to come back to my last post, you also haven't given any arguments as to why the original series is supposed to suck in terms of story. It's like you never give any arguments... only examples of what you like and dislike. All you've said (pretty much) is that Kyrie and Nero had a very shallow relationship in DMC4 - that it was a very shallow love story. Yes, it was shallow. Everybody realizes it was; this is not new info. Everybody but you seems to know that it's just something to move the story along.
I'm not saying there's no cause to complain about it, but it's a bit ignorant to say that DMC4's story sucked because of that one thing... or even that the love story sucked... because it wasn't even really a love story. Kyrie and Nero already knew each other. The subplot wasn't about them falling in love or out of love, it was about somebody who's dear to Nero getting caught by the enemy to manipulate him. That's. All. We know she's dear to Nero because she got a gift from him, because she found it very important for him to be at the cathedral while she was singing, and because he displays affection for her. That info was all we needed. DMC is not about some profound love story or incredibly deep characters... even DMC1 wasn't, so if you want that, go play different games.

Now back to the main topic, I would hope.

 

[Chancey289]

I don't know how it interferes with the gameplay either, I can only speculate that they've got a certain budget, and that putting less effort into the story might give them more money left for the gameplay. But I don't know if that's how it works -- like I said, just speculation.
That part of the discussion was started by xMobilemux, not me.

I responded to this part of what you said, and this is the main topic: ''Dude, I see it's trying too hard to actually get a better plot going, but failing.''

''Itsuno was stressing the fact that DMC 4 would be the best game in the series when it came to storytelling and wanted to craft what he thought would be a great movie with the cutscenes. The whole addition of Nero and his love interest was also their attempt at attracting more females to the series. (this is how they freaking think)''

Yes, that was the plan. I also know that failed, because DMC4 was rushed due to time constraints. That's probably why there's so much backtracking. As for Kyrie, I already said that I believe it was never meant to be a profound love story -- it was just used as a plot point to get the story rolling. It's about Nero and his quest to find himself, and Kyrie is not the slightest bit important. She serves as a way for the bad guys to manipulate Nero, and she serves to reinforce the idea that Nero is still 'human' when he accepts his demon side. That's pretty much it.

''I'm not saying DmC is the best thing I've ever seen. It's far from it, but it is the best narrative in the series thus far with more well rounded characters and an actual coherent plot.''

How is DMC3's plot (or DMC4's) not coherent? They make perfect sense, and they work. Just because they're not the deepest stories we've seen with the best characters doesn't mean they're incoherent.

''A lot of you totally dismiss any shortcomings the original series has in the plot department as somehow intentional like you don't want to admit that it just sucked.''

I never dismissed the fact that DMC4 doesn't have a great story, or that it's got backtracking, so I don't see what you're talking about here. I never ignored any flaws, but I can also acknowledge that these developers don't do things quite the way modern western developers tend to. DMC3 and DMC4 have simple stories, and they were meant to be simple, in my view. But when they decide to make impressive cutscenes to go with that simple story, suddenly DMC4 ''tried too hard''? Come on.
I can appreciate games with simple stories and deep gameplay. I can also appreciate games with mediocre gameplay and deep stories. You apparently can't appreciate games with simple stories and good gameplay. Not my problem. You're acting like DMC3 and DMC4 have terrible stories -- they don't. DMC is about a superhero-like guy who fights evil f*ckers who want to take over the world, it's not some masterpiece of storytelling, never was. That doesn't mean it's terrible.

But I still love DMC 3 and DMC 1 is my favorite. Where have I said I had a problem with the game in general? It's actually trying to tell a story an ongoing story, where does it suddenly get exempt from criticism in this regard?

I'm just criticizing the plot from a storytelling perspective. And yea, DMC 3 and 4 is actually pretty lame and rather bad.

Considering the canon as a whole, that's what I meant by incoherent. The plot wants us to roll that all these games happened, yet it's riddled with plot holes and continuity issues. DMC 3 flat out contradicts the entire canon established in the first game.

And it's not like I have a problem with simple stories for the sake of cheesy fun. Some of my favorite films of all time are the Evil Dead movies.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the rose tinted glasses some people have viewing the series are practically blindfolds.

 

[ReaperHunter]

I wouldn't say that DMC has spoiled hack'n slash for me. First of all my favorite game in the series (DMC1) isn't quite as good game play wise as say DMC3 or DmC therefore complaining about other hack'n slashers if they don't quite reach that level would be a little silly. I also enjoy a number of other Hack'n slash games such as God of War or Metal Gear Rising. Heck I can still go back and have a grand old time with Onimusha 2 and that had tank controls.

 

[Lord Nero]

But I still love DMC 3 and DMC 1 is my favorite. Where have I said I had a problem with the game in general? It's actually trying to tell a story an ongoing story, where does it suddenly get exempt from criticism in this regard?

I'm just criticizing the plot from a storytelling perspective. And yea, DMC 3 and 4 is actually pretty lame and rather bad.

Considering the canon as a whole, that's what I meant by incoherent. The plot wants us to roll that all these games happened, yet it's riddled with plot holes and continuity issues. DMC 3 flat out contradicts the entire canon established in the first game.

What ongoing story? You mean DMC1 to DMC4 -- which all have different stories? And where did I say you have a problem with DMC4 in general? I said you probably don't like games that have shallow plots/stories. I said you're acting like DMC3 and DMC4 have terrible stories, when they don't. Are they simple? Sure. Terrible? No, I don't see why.

Well, criticizing but not critiquing... all you've said is 'this sucks' and that the relationship between Nero and Kyrie is shallow, which it is because it's purposely used only as a plot point.

Aah, yeah, there are some plotholes when it comes to the overarching story. That said, I feel like DMC doesn't *have to* tell one coherent story. DMC3 and DMC4 at least, go pretty well together in terms of story. And it seems to me that Capcom's plan was to create a new story from DMC4 onward, with Nero. DMC4's story stands on its own; it doesn't seem to contradict DMC1 or DMC3, so I don't see your point here.

DMC3 did retcon some things and create plotholes... but I don't see how it contradicted the whole of DMC1 -- can you explain? The most important contradiction is that Vergil was still alive at 19, and not enslaved. But that doesn't necessarily contradict DMC1, it only contradicts the cutscene in DMC1 when (after defeating Nero Angelo) Dante's last memory of Vergil was a birthday party when they were kids. And even that could be explained as 'Dante wanting to remember Vergil as who he was when he was 8'.
There don't seem to be that many contradictions in the change from DMC1 to DMC3. As for my own opinion: I don't find the overarching story too important: give me one good independent story each game, and I'm good... though I would like them to continue with Nero, making him a little more awesome and powerful. Even a game about Sparda would be nice.

 

[Meg]

Hey everyone, great discussion about DMC's plot, but that isn't what this thread is about. Please make a new thread to continue the discussion. :thumbsup:

 

[Innsmouth]

back to the topic. There were couple of games that were intense, like Bayonetta, that was just as enjoyable as DMC1,3,4. DMC2 was far to easy (though final boss was decent challenge, and DmC on hardest difficulty easier than GoW for me, so I wouldn't count it toward challenging or intense game at all.) Though Dark Souls 1 and Demon's Souls may be close call imo

 

[Lord Nero]

Hey everyone, great discussion about DMC's plot, but that isn't what this thread is about. Please make a new thread to continue the discussion. :thumbsup:

No need, it seems his 'criticism' lacks arguments, and criticism without arguments isn't criticism at all, just... discontent, I guess.

Carry on, everyone.

 

[Chancey289]

My bigger issue with DMC 4 is not really the story. Yea, it was annoying and pretty insufferable, but my biggest issue with 4 is how lazy of an overall game it is. I hate 4.

 

[Chancey289]

What ongoing story? You mean DMC1 to DMC4 -- which all have different stories? And where did I say you have a problem with DMC4 in general? I said you probably don't like games that have shallow plots/stories. I said you're acting like DMC3 and DMC4 have terrible stories, when they don't. Are they simple? Sure. Terrible? No, I don't see why.

Well, criticizing but not critiquing... all you've said is 'this sucks' and that the relationship between Nero and Kyrie is shallow, which it is because it's purposely used only as a plot point.

Aah, yeah, there are some plotholes when it comes to the overarching story. That said, I feel like DMC doesn't *have to* tell one coherent story. DMC3 and DMC4 at least, go pretty well together in terms of story. And it seems to me that Capcom's plan was to create a new story from DMC4 onward, with Nero. DMC4's story stands on its own; it doesn't seem to contradict DMC1 or DMC3, so I don't see your point here.

DMC3 did retcon some things and create plotholes... but I don't see how it contradicted the whole of DMC1 -- can you explain? The most important contradiction is that Vergil was still alive at 19, and not enslaved. But that doesn't necessarily contradict DMC1, it only contradicts the cutscene in DMC1 when (after defeating Nero Angelo) Dante's last memory of Vergil was a birthday party when they were kids. And even that could be explained as 'Dante wanting to remember Vergil as who he was when he was 8'.
There don't seem to be that many contradictions in the change from DMC1 to DMC3. As for my own opinion: I don't find the overarching story too important: give me one good independent story each game, and I'm good... though I would like them to continue with Nero, making him a little more awesome and powerful. Even a game about Sparda would be nice.

The ongoing story of Dante's life duh.

Besides just being simple (which I really don't have a problem with) they are just poorly written. And I'm not just talking about the cheese which I enjoy albeit can be more legitimately funny instead of cringe worthy thinking it is.

Well written tales tend to avoid these gaping plot holes and narrative pit falls. Come one, it's Capcom. They've never really had very smart story tellers in the house.

And yes, it does contradict the canon established in the first game. Kamiya, the creator of DMC, even flat out admits that what was done in later games shouldn't have happened. Dante lost both his brother and mother when he was 8.

The timeline's wonky. Dante is supposed to be 28 in DMC 1 and it is said that he lost his family 20 years ago. In DMC 3, Dante is 19. DMC 3 basically says Dante has been seeing his bro off and on for the past decade (if you want to count the manga too). None of that ever came up whatsoever then in DMC 1?

When Dante beats Nelo Angelo in DMC 1, he discovers the amulet which is indication that was indeed Vergil's body under the ruling influence of Mundus. And while you want to say about just remembering that happy memory, that question was just wondering why Dante chose to remember that when discovering Vergil. I've seen the question.

It was that, and just saying Dante hasn't seen him since he was a kid because that's when he lost his family!

I really think it was just the writers that came after Kamiya left not realizing what they were doing exactly and in hindsight it was a bad idea even they owned up to when it came to talking about a reboot. DMC 3 is basically a reboot in its own right when you think about it. But we all know it's not canonically so, it's just that game that screws the whole continuity up.

 

[xMobilemux]

It's so simple, why is it that "video games" like Borderlands, DayZ, Just Cause 2 and such are still being played to this day while "Art" games like Last of Us, DmC, Spec Ops The Line and such have fallen down in players and into the bargain bin?

Because they're made to be fun to play and are entertaining, they're trying to be video games, the "Art" games aren't fun to play at all and often get shelved or resold after 1 playthrough by the masses. But the companies today don't care about that because they judge the success of the game based on it's sales performance in the 2-3 weeks after it releases.

If we wanna have a game that surpasses DMC3 & 4 in it's gameplay then DMC5 or whatever game that tries, has to be made with the plan to be a Fun Video Game full stop, not some emotional journey, artistic expression or well crafted narrative driven campaign, it doesn't matter if 1 team is focusing on the story and the other is focusing on the gameplay, the story will ALWAYS interfere with the gameplay these days, so the story has to be built around the gameplay in order for the gameplay to be free to reach it's high standards.
DMC3's story was stupid, crazy and just as fun as the game itself which let the gameplay go nuts. Look at all Platinum's games, their stories are nuts and allow them to let their gameplay run free and do awesome stuff and thanks to that Bayo 2 has become the best action game of the modern era, so far at least.

Take Halo for example, Halo 2 is my favorite in the franchise and other Halo fans consider it the best in the franchise and it's plot is more focused on action than Halo 4's focus on story and character development therefor Halo 4's gameplay was slightly less good compared to the past games with it's damn inclusion of QTEs and such, also Master Chief talked to much.

The gameplay of Devil May Cry 3 & 4 has heaps of room for improvement and innovation, but it simply won't happen if the franchise keeps trying to be Art over an entertaining video game.

 

[Chancey289]

It's so simple, why is it that "video games" like Borderlands, DayZ, Just Cause 2 and such are still being played to this day while "Art" games like Last of Us, DmC, Spec Ops The Line and such have fallen down in players and into the bargain bin?

Because they're made to be fun to play and are entertaining, they're trying to be video games, the "Art" games aren't fun to play at all and often get shelved or resold after 1 playthrough by the masses. But the companies today don't care about that because they judge the success of the game based on it's sales performance in the 2-3 weeks after it releases.

If we wanna have a game that surpasses DMC3 & 4 in it's gameplay then DMC5 or whatever game that tries, has to be made with the plan to be a Fun Video Game full stop, not some emotional journey, artistic expression or well crafted narrative driven campaign, it doesn't matter if 1 team is focusing on the story and the other is focusing on the gameplay, the story will ALWAYS interfere with the gameplay these days, so the story has to be built around the gameplay in order for the gameplay to be free to reach it's high standards.
DMC3's story was stupid, crazy and just as fun as the game itself which let the gameplay go nuts. Look at all Platinum's games, their stories are nuts and allow them to let their gameplay run free and do awesome stuff and thanks to that Bayo 2 has become the best action game of the modern era, so far at least.

Take Halo for example, Halo 2 is my favorite in the franchise and other Halo fans consider it the best in the franchise and it's plot is more focused on action than Halo 4's focus on story and character development therefor Halo 4's gameplay was slightly less good compared to the past games with it's damn inclusion of QTEs and such, also Master Chief talked to much.

The gameplay of Devil May Cry 3 & 4 has heaps of room for improvement and innovation, but it simply won't happen if the franchise keeps trying to be Art over an entertaining video game.

I think "arthouse" games you're trying to refer to are stuff like Journey and Shadow of The Colossus. I wouldn't lump games like DmC in to that category And I, among with many other people, actually really like replaying those games. Shadow is really epic and fun.

And you can't tear down an entire medium just because they aren't your Duke Nukems and try to be a little more brain stimulating than a mindless 80s action flick. Video games are a very broad form of entertainment that can do may different things. And they are all still video games.

Art comes in many different shapes and sizes. Your Duke Nukem, is still art in someone's eyes.

And to get down to the specifics of your comment, isn't The Last of Us is super popular and well received by tons of gamers. I personally think it's overrated, but a lot of people like it.

And while I also think Halo 2 was the best, that wasn't because I felt like it was more action oriented. It's because it introduced enough new things following up a pretty well done FPS. And there was actually more interesting plot lines going on in that one than any other Halo game if you ask me. Even if Halo is just one giant unimaginative rip off of many scifi franchises.

The problem with Halo 4, is that Halo has become freaking stagnant and should just die. It's has its run and now you're just gonna get more of the same. Halo had a perfectly decent trilogy, anything else afterwards was just the industry refusing to let go of a hot property.

And most of all @xMobilemux is that you still never explained how a game that just tries to give a good story or characters somehow interferes with the gameplay. You have nothing to back that up with.

That's because just as soon as you see anything else besides your Duke Nukem quality entertainment(this is how you sound), they somehow had their writing interfere with how fun and playable these games are.

The Last of Us is overrated sure, but is it a badly done video game? I don't think so. The controls and mechanics were all done quite well. It's still very playable.

Your issue, is that you need to realize what these certain games are and what they are not. Another example, you tear down TellTale games all the time, yet as a point and click interactive adventure game it tries to be, it succeeds.

 

[Meg]

Another really good discussion, but not one that goes along in this thread. Please create a new thread about video games and art.

Since I've already warned everyone once, I will not be doing it again. Stop derailing this thread. The next time this happens, I will be giving out warnings.

 

[xMobilemux]

snip

I just did, games like Last of Us, Spec Ops The Line, DmC and even Tomb Raider all focus on their story and their gameplay suffers for it. Take away their stories and you've got boring games that aren't any fun to play.
Games like DMC3 & 4, Borderlands, DayZ, Platinum's Games, Just Cause and such always focus on their gameplay and end up becoming fantastic video games to play, they even innovate sometimes.
You take away the stories of those games and you've still got great video games that can be played for days and weeks.
Last of Us, a so called zombie survival game, was popular but it's popularity is slowly dying down and it's gonna be forgotten while DayZ another zombie survival game is still going to be played by millions and millions in the future.
One is a video game and knows it, the other is trying to be an artistic expression, one's still being played by millions and growing while the other is dying down in players.

Also if you still think that I think "everything" should be mindless 80s action/Duke Nukem level then you're an even bigger idiot than I thought, DN is just 1 fun franchise that knows it's dumb fun and it does actually apply perfectly to the point I'm trying to make here with DEVIL MAY CRY.
I'm not saying something like Last of Us should have Joel running around shirtless with an M60 and having the gameplay of a fast paced 3rd person shooter from the 90s..... Jesus Christ -_-

Duke Nukem isn't a narrative driven franchise or an artistic masterpiece and neither is Devil May Cry, DMC is an action franchise, DMC3 & 4 took that action to massive heights with it's extreme gameplay, while DmC came along and dumbed it all down with it's story and desire to appeal to casuals and guess what, franchises with high gameplay standards like Ninja Gaiden did the same thing, Ninja Gaiden 3 dumbed itself down for casuals and tried to paint a picture, it was no longer entirely dumb, crazy & fun violence, NG3 tried to make an emotional impact with the enemies pleading for their lives and suffering in order to make the player feel something, at least that's what I heard the devs say, but thankfully they said screw it and went back to being a video game with Razors Edge, they learnt their lesson, now Capcom needs to with DMC.

The point I'm trying to make here is on point with this thread, DMC3 didn't spoil us, it set the standard and now Devil May Cry isn't even trying to reach that standard anymore cause it's focusing on it's story and appealing to casuals with DmC, it's trying to be Art rather than a video game, Devil May Cry IS NOT ART, it's a Video Game and as soon as Capcom accepts that they will be able to take it's gameplay back up to the DMC3 standard and even maybe surpass it.
That won't happen if they keep trying to focus on making it Art.

EDIT:
I mean as Jak said, DMC3 offered a very rewarding experience in the gameplay itself with it's SSS ratings and such, those were often more rewarding than the unlockable costumes in the game, games these days don't do that anymore because they're trying to be all about artistic expression and narrative driven experiences rather than intense, challenging, rewarding and fun video games. Platinum's games come close but no cigar.

 

[Absent Nova]

I wouldn't say DMC has spoiled us, I think the series is more of a measuring stick for comparing other HnS titles.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I posted a new thread.

http://devilmaycry.org/threads/dmc-general-storyline-and-how-other-storylines-effect-games.19687/