Eva in the story
- Thread starter DeamonslayeR
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Oh my God your ass just got owned!!! KtWt LITERALLY slapped down every one of your arguments like a pro. My new hero :,)
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
I hope you don't mind but I want to talk about this for a sec. Sorry if I say anything out of line.
Honestly, Eva had no real character within her. She was the motivation for Dante in the sense that he doesn't want to see humans die like his mother did. In the DMC3 manga, Eva was noted very importantly. From Dante having the dream of his mothers death, to Vergil visiting her grave at the beginning of the first manga. However in the DMC3 game, Eva is hardly talked about and really isn't that important except for the fact that she provided the amulets for Dante and Vergil. DMC3 just focused on Sparda and kind of left Eva in the dust besides the amulet's importance. When ever you hear about Eva, it involves the amulets in that game. DMC1 focused a lot on Dante's mom and true, it did give Dante the will to be able to get revenge on Mundus for killing her, and Trish was an impact on Dante since she and Eva look alike, but Eva was still not given enough character. She had fire? What fire? Was she spunky? Was she honorable? Was she stern? Kind? I don't know, because there wasn't much on her besides her sacrificing her life and the amulet importance. If you know please help me out. And then the DMC anime came up. This didn't really have much to do with Eva except for like one episode. In episode 1 Patty notices her picture, and when Trish and Lady fight, Dante says "Please don't talk to me like you're my mother." She was explained more in that one episode where Dante goes back to a village that was burned down because of Dante's family. Even so, that's still so little of her character. What did she do? how did she react to being kicked out of that village? I would like to know. Then DMC4 came out which really didn't tell anything about Eva at all. Infact, Eva and Kyrie can be comparable. Kyrie chose to be with a demon (Nero) and she was only human. DMC2 just forgot Eva exsisted. I do like Eva for being able to change Sparda and the two had children, but how did she do it? I don't know her character at all. Was she kind to Sparda? Was she stern? a Tsundere? (look it up) Or was she seductive at times with him? These are things I would like to know about her, rather then reading a fanfic and guessing from there. What I'm saying is that, yes Eva is important to the story, but the story doesn't give any real importance to her except that she died to save Dante and Vergil and gave him insperation to kill demons and protect humans, make Vergil become power hungry, and Mundus probably ordered her killed just to f*ck with Sparda. She made an influence, I just want to know how? What made Sparda love her? Why was she different from other humans? These are things I seriously want to know.
Sorry for the long post.
Not at all. I actually really enjoyed reading your response. Alot less combative and it was well thought out. What I've been explaining in my posts is that the originality of Eva's character, through her human heritage, is something that's lost in the reboot by changing her into an angel who Dante never knew. It's precisely those questions "She made an influence, I just want to know how? What made Sparda love her? Why was she different from other humans?" that I would've loved to know. They're actually some of the same questions that apply to Sparda, which leaves them both hidden from the player and shrouded in mystery.
What it seemed that Tiran was trying to argue was that because these questions are never answered, Eva is lacking as a character, and thusly unimportant. What I really disagreed with was the idea that somehow DmC's new dipiction of Eva was in fact superior. I believe that Eva's character in the original series is so fleshed out and so important, and so interesting, that it's a shame that DmC is sidelining her. How did she move, how did she think? We get a shadow of it through Trish and through the way Dante behaves, but a character like Eva is one so integral to the story, that more details could've only added to an already great character. Eva can stand on her own as a character, but she's just so damn interesting that her character demands further exploration/ It's truly a shame that Eva's true character is lost in the reboot
No prob man! I think that those last questions would be the most important to answer if there was a fifth Devil May Cry (consecutive, not a reboot). KtWt had a great comment on this one thread about a possible Devil May Cry 5.
http://devilmaycry.org/community/th...iscussion-1-themes-story-and-narrative.11120/
He explained that such a game should deal with overcoming the sins of the past. I think Sparda's waking up to justice (whatever that means), falling in love with Eva, and sealing off the portal to the demon world are all very mysterious events that would be perfect to address as part of the conclusive chapter of the series. I personally like the Eva character. Even though not much is known about her as a person, the effect her life had on those around her is present throughout the games, and had there have been a DMC5, I would have loved to discover more information about who she was as a person. This DmC incarnation is completely different, and it bums me out that they won't be exploring the human Eva.
I like the way you think stranger...anyway, I hope that gives you some food for thought DragonMaster2010, and answers your question!
My argument was because of the fact that she was never explored was where the story involving her failed. Trish had nothing of what Eva had as said by Dante himself. Everyone of the questions you stated explain just why Eva was not a deep character in the series. She's hardly interesting because of the fact that nothing interesting was explained about her. It's the story itself that makes the difference not what the story failed to do. If you say that the story should have done this and should have done that that means the story failed to do the things that would have added to the themes you claimed the story had. She was hinted at, that means nothing until those themes and story elements are actually expanded upon. I don't disagree that she had potential and that the setup had promise. This promise, however went unfulfilled.
Also, I never said the new Eva was superior, only that the setup shows the potential for more in terms of foundation to the story, impact and development. That could very well lead to a superior character.
Also, I'm sorry I didn't go in depth and answer your questions, I was answering while I was busy and gave little care to the argument. I feel it's irrelevant anyways since neither of us will change their stance. You think the story and characters in the original games were well developed. You defend your claims and they were well written. I do not agree.
It's like a Hitchens vs. Turek debate.Well done.
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
It does, and thanks. And also, now that you mention it, Eva is an interesting character. She was able to make a DEMON fall in love with her. Hwo did she do it? I guess that's one of the things about Eva I desperately want to know.
Something I also find intersting is that fact that Sparda was said to be towards the end of his life when he took Eva to be his wife. And then for them to have children? Was there truly a love between Sparda and Eva? It's obvious that she was undying committed to her children, but the Sparda/Eva relationship was always something that I've wondered about. Was it arranged? It must've been a great honor to marry a living legend like Sparda. Was it simply that he was in such high standing that he simply could just have whatever woman he wanted? Or was Eva there for him when he needed someone the most. And towards the end of his life, after a lifetime of conflict, was Eva's love the one thing Sparda finally needed to become whole? The opportunities are endless, and could radically change Dante's own views about his father
Alright I think the crux of our disagreement stems directly from this:
" If you say that the story should have done this and should have done that that means the story failed to do the things that would have added to the themes you claimed the story had."
Wrong. Eva's character by herself is an exemplary human being, and an astounding character in the mythos of videogame lore. The potential for Eva's character to continue to grow does not invalidate her as a character. There are still things about Dante we don't know, and he isn't invalidated by what we don't know. Like Eva, he is validated by what we do know. And in both cases, it is enough to show the amazing writing of the first game. The themes I "claim" the story have are already there. Like DragonMaster2010, I'm also interested in learning why they are there as well
My argument is that in a narrative themes and characters are only good when they are explored. That is all. Optimus prime is a fascinating character and his history with Megatron is deep and detailed. However, those themes, while hinted at, did not make the story of the last three transformer films great because they were not explored. I feel that there was not enough narrative told in the first game to make for an interesting story on it's own. The most fascinating parts were just back story to the final battle and Dante's infiltration on Mallet island. I believe Eva's story was glossed over. The over all story-telling was hardly amazing.Eva is not astounding as a character because we never got to know her. We are only told about what she did. That's not story telling, that's back-story telling.
We don't need to know her to love her. This response is going to be ridiculous because I'm not religous at all, but what your saying is akin to saying that just because we never got to see Jesus Christ walking around in front of us, his teachings don't matter. Jesus's teachings matter to a whole lot of people, not because they saw him walking around (though the majority of Christians claim to 'feel' his presence) but because they read about his teachings and what he did, in a book. Namely, The Bible.
We don't need to have Eva prancing about in front of us to understand her character. Knowing what she did, and seeing the effects of her actions build a character in itself. Of course every character in the series can continue to grow with added detail, but excising the importance of Eva's character because "we never get to know her," is a little narrow minded. She's in Dante, and Vergil and Trish, and if you look closely enough, the portrait of a strong, noble woman begins to take form. I can't make you see it dude, but I'm telling you, it's there. I know Eva as a character. Don't fall into a mindset where you need to be spoonfed everything to understand what's right in front of your face. The original Devil may Cry series offers one of the most complex and interesting storylines I've seen in a game, if you let it.
You cannot compare Jesus to Eva story-wise. Jesus had a well told fleshed out story detailing exactly what kind of person he was in many different situations. That's why people know him so well. All that is known of Eva are character traits. She, as a character, is never explored, just described. That is the difference I'm talking about. You seem to believe that personality traits make for a great character when they only make for the foundation of the character.
We know that Eva was kind and caring towards her children to the point that she would sacrifice herself for them. That makes her a great mother, not a great character. She might be a giving loving individual, that makes her a great person, not an interesting character. She serves as only motivation for Dante, nothing more. That makes her a
Trish is never shown to want to be LIKE Eva. She is only shown wanting to be a better person and even then, this change is sudden and not explained. Her transition from loyal servant to an evil overlord and Dante';s sidekick is random and any inner conflict is never explored either. What does she care about Dante? She isn't Eva nor does she contain any part of Eva. She just think about it and changes. Why this happens with her and not any other demon, we never know. (I have at theory that it has something to do with her being a sexy woman)
A writer needs to show human flaws, the inner demons which run through a character’s mind just as they do in real life to each and every one of us. Consistency too is key to creating great fictional characters. If you can develop a character from birth and imbue him with a full personality; human traits and emotions, fears, needs and desires you are working towards a great story.
Dante is a great character. Eva is not.
can we please wrap this up with just one summary this argument may spand more pages then anyone els ewould like to read.
Put very simply--->Eva: Interesting character that was not explored and as a result is not only very shallow, lacking her own personality. Also Doesn't really add to the story as she is and at best when explored is just motivation for dante/sparda/vergil. I swear the argument with you two is like a revolving door no matter how many posts i read, just 4 >.>, it's the both of you saying the same thing in different forms it's going to get annoying to read.
also thought it would be fair to add KtW your reading to far into the lore building up a character that just hasn't been explained and won't be, in the form of a game that is, your just blowing up a background character and saying she had an impact on such levels on dante and vergil when she didn't, and if she did they were presented very poorly thus lessening the impact. Your reading far to into the smallest things and blowing them up for the sake of eva when she really isn't, or wasn't, that important to begin with, she could be but i'm not going to repeat everything that's been written as of now, she's just a cliche in the story.
SO GUYS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE AGREE TO DISAGREE OR END IT SOON
Put very simply--->Eva: Interesting character that was not explored and as a result is not only very shallow, lacking her own personality. Also Doesn't really add to the story as she is and at best when explored is just motivation for dante/sparda/vergil. I swear the argument with you two is like a revolving door no matter how many posts i read, just 4 >.>, it's the both of you saying the same thing in different forms it's going to get annoying to read.
also thought it would be fair to add KtW your reading to far into the lore building up a character that just hasn't been explained and won't be, in the form of a game that is, your just blowing up a background character and saying she had an impact on such levels on dante and vergil when she didn't, and if she did they were presented very poorly thus lessening the impact. Your reading far to into the smallest things and blowing them up for the sake of eva when she really isn't, or wasn't, that important to begin with, she could be but i'm not going to repeat everything that's been written as of now, she's just a cliche in the story.
SO GUYS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE AGREE TO DISAGREE OR END IT SOON
Hi there guys, I'm a new guy here in the forums, but this topic is something I've been thinking about for a while now. Hope you don't mind if I drop my two cents.
In my humble opinion, Eva as an angel is a tiny bit problematic because to me, it makes her a bit less interesting as a character overall.
Allow me to elaborate; a normal, non-superpowered human being, having the moxie to make a centuries old demon warrior is pretty awesome just by description alone. I would have like for NT to just explore that, show us basically what humanity is made of.
The thing with her being an angel is that Sparda must have seen her as an equal (at least) because they are both divine/supernatural beings, maybe with the same amount of power. They are basically both living in their own little worlds, with humans being nothing more than chess pieces or maybe even cattle. One is a representation of absolute good and the other absolute evil; it makes the switching sides a bit cheap in my mind, because how can we be sure either of them really did switch sides, especially since they have been already been established to be working for warring factions?
As humans, we like to be thought of as blank slates; from the very first trailer there was this quote:
"Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue."
I always assumed that it was talking about how humans are neither absolutely good nor evil, but somewhere in between. I didn't think they'd literally go and mix someone from Heaven and someone from Hell. Notice also how it emphasizes men and mankind, i.e. humans? The fact now that Dante is basically a god unto himself just makes him less relatable overall. I know that Classic Dante was an invincible death machine who brought down monsters like a boss and regularly survived impalement, but the fact that even a small part of him remained human made him somewhat relatable. Humans can do some pretty amazing things, so having Dante be an angel-demon hybrid means whatever amazing thing he does, I can't go "That's badass!"! I just go, "Well, he's half-demon and half-angel. What did you expect?".
If you really look at it, this DmC really is pretty dark, because of how humans are represented here; mere playthings by god-like beings. We need somebody who has the best of both worlds to bail us out.
On a final note, Eva being an angel, just kind of undermines her sacrifice to protect her kids. As humans, we understand the concept of out mortality pretty early on, so an immortal angel, likely having powers over time and space, not being able to protect her own children is a big question. Maybe she chooses to be human in the narrative? To illustrate this point further, what's more impressive, a lion defending her cubs against a tiger, or an ordinary, household dog doing the same? Lions are well know to be strong and frightening creatures, but I'd wanna find out about what the dog's been eating.
I'm guessing in this new narrative, the Twins didn't know either parent and most likely didn't have a somewhat happy childhood, so yeah again, this IS the darkest timeline
Sorry if that was a bit long, but I had to get it off my chest. If I said anything that bugs you or wasn't clear, just say so ^_^
In my humble opinion, Eva as an angel is a tiny bit problematic because to me, it makes her a bit less interesting as a character overall.
Allow me to elaborate; a normal, non-superpowered human being, having the moxie to make a centuries old demon warrior is pretty awesome just by description alone. I would have like for NT to just explore that, show us basically what humanity is made of.
The thing with her being an angel is that Sparda must have seen her as an equal (at least) because they are both divine/supernatural beings, maybe with the same amount of power. They are basically both living in their own little worlds, with humans being nothing more than chess pieces or maybe even cattle. One is a representation of absolute good and the other absolute evil; it makes the switching sides a bit cheap in my mind, because how can we be sure either of them really did switch sides, especially since they have been already been established to be working for warring factions?
As humans, we like to be thought of as blank slates; from the very first trailer there was this quote:
"Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue."
I always assumed that it was talking about how humans are neither absolutely good nor evil, but somewhere in between. I didn't think they'd literally go and mix someone from Heaven and someone from Hell. Notice also how it emphasizes men and mankind, i.e. humans? The fact now that Dante is basically a god unto himself just makes him less relatable overall. I know that Classic Dante was an invincible death machine who brought down monsters like a boss and regularly survived impalement, but the fact that even a small part of him remained human made him somewhat relatable. Humans can do some pretty amazing things, so having Dante be an angel-demon hybrid means whatever amazing thing he does, I can't go "That's badass!"! I just go, "Well, he's half-demon and half-angel. What did you expect?".
If you really look at it, this DmC really is pretty dark, because of how humans are represented here; mere playthings by god-like beings. We need somebody who has the best of both worlds to bail us out.
On a final note, Eva being an angel, just kind of undermines her sacrifice to protect her kids. As humans, we understand the concept of out mortality pretty early on, so an immortal angel, likely having powers over time and space, not being able to protect her own children is a big question. Maybe she chooses to be human in the narrative? To illustrate this point further, what's more impressive, a lion defending her cubs against a tiger, or an ordinary, household dog doing the same? Lions are well know to be strong and frightening creatures, but I'd wanna find out about what the dog's been eating.
I'm guessing in this new narrative, the Twins didn't know either parent and most likely didn't have a somewhat happy childhood, so yeah again, this IS the darkest timeline
Sorry if that was a bit long, but I had to get it off my chest. If I said anything that bugs you or wasn't clear, just say so ^_^
Hahaha not my intention. In my mind Tiran and I were just arguing for the sake of reaching a general consensus. Stepping in to our conversation and trying to sum it up in your own opinion is irrelevent to the fact that Tiran and I were already at a point in our argument without you. Hopefully Sieghart isn't being sarcastic, but I hope that people read it and enjoy the ideas we try to bring up, like it seems that pfizer has. Either way, you weighed in on it so it's obviously a conversation everyone is open to. But let me and Tiran wrap it up
Absolutely not, I feel like this is the greatest thing that could come from Tiran and I's argument, is people expressing their ideas too. Please feel free to share whatever your thoughts are. Even Nelo_Vergil! So long as you're not trying to make us stop ha. But yah "I'd wanna find out about what the dog's been eating." I love that. Exactly my point. I've been trying to argue that Eva's humanity makes her alot more interesting as a character overall. Good metaphor! But yah I also agree that the DmC storyline does seem a little darker with demons in control of everything and all. However, in my opinion the narrative is a little less compelling with the new Dante-Angel/Demon plotline, which is unfortunate. Because I love me some dark tone, but I just don't see the characters being half as interesting or complex as the original onesHi there guys, I'm a new guy here in the forums, but this topic is something I've been thinking about for a while now. Hope you don't mind if I drop my two cents.
In my humble opinion, Eva as an angel is a tiny bit problematic because to me, it makes her a bit less interesting as a character overall.
Allow me to elaborate; a normal, non-superpowered human being, having the moxie to make a centuries old demon warrior is pretty awesome just by description alone. I would have like for NT to just explore that, show us basically what humanity is made of.
The thing with her being an angel is that Sparda must have seen her as an equal (at least) because they are both divine/supernatural beings, maybe with the same amount of power. They are basically both living in their own little worlds, with humans being nothing more than chess pieces or maybe even cattle. One is a representation of absolute good and the other absolute evil; it makes the switching sides a bit cheap in my mind, because how can we be sure either of them really did switch sides, especially since they have been already been established to be working for warring factions?
As humans, we like to be thought of as blank slates; from the very first trailer there was this quote:
"Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue."
I always assumed that it was talking about how humans are neither absolutely good nor evil, but somewhere in between. I didn't think they'd literally go and mix someone from Heaven and someone from Hell. Notice also how it emphasizes men and mankind, i.e. humans? The fact now that Dante is basically a god unto himself just makes him less relatable overall. I know that Classic Dante was an invincible death machine who brought down monsters like a boss and regularly survived impalement, but the fact that even a small part of him remained human made him somewhat relatable. Humans can do some pretty amazing things, so having Dante be an angel-demon hybrid means whatever amazing thing he does, I can't go "That's badass!"! I just go, "Well, he's half-demon and half-angel. What did you expect?".
If you really look at it, this DmC really is pretty dark, because of how humans are represented here; mere playthings by god-like beings. We need somebody who has the best of both worlds to bail us out.
On a final note, Eva being an angel, just kind of undermines her sacrifice to protect her kids. As humans, we understand the concept of out mortality pretty early on, so an immortal angel, likely having powers over time and space, not being able to protect her own children is a big question. Maybe she chooses to be human in the narrative? To illustrate this point further, what's more impressive, a lion defending her cubs against a tiger, or an ordinary, household dog doing the same? Lions are well know to be strong and frightening creatures, but I'd wanna find out about what the dog's been eating.
I'm guessing in this new narrative, the Twins didn't know either parent and most likely didn't have a somewhat happy childhood, so yeah again, this IS the darkest timeline
Sorry if that was a bit long, but I had to get it off my chest. If I said anything that bugs you or wasn't clear, just say so ^_^