Does "Hate" mean "Different"?

[MegaMad9]

"u would be smart 2 buy Metal Gear Rising instead of this piece of ****"
"it is the same company but a different developer and different character but because the developer is ninja theory im positive this game will be horrible"
"ppl say there as nothing revolutionary about DMC 4 but there isnt anything revolutionary about this game unless u count slower framerate as revolutionary but other than that they took things from DMC and put them in a new game with the same name NT didnt do anything 2 make the franchise better."
(courtesy of nearly every single DmC video on youtube )

You can find comments like these everywhere on the internet, just people saying bad things about a game that actually works really well. But what does this mean? Why do people hate on this game so much? Is it really just Dante's hair?
Short version, yes, it really is just Dante's hair, but here's why.
In the early 1990s, two well known industrial designers named Don Chadwick and Bill Stumpf wanted to design the Aeron - the name for the most comfortable chair for the human body as possible (at that time anyway). The Aeron was their attempt to make something purposely different from the norm. Their first design consisted of a new mechanism to tilt the chair back, arms that were separate from the chair body for maximum movement, and made it out of a specially engineered mesh material to allow the skin as much comfort as possible. Once they completed their design, they decided to go into testing, and it was a complete failure. All of the test results said that their chair was ugly and uncomfortable.
Now, that does not make any sense, they put all of this work and money into making it comfortable and people say it's not. It's because of the chair design. At that time, the chair was so different from what people wanted. People wanted a chair to be like a throne, this chair was the opposite, it slouched to make your back more comfortable. Because people thought of it as ugly, they just said it was uncomfortable even because that's how they perceived it. Your unconcious mind cannot believe that something so different to what you know could be good and it immediately. People said that they hated it, but what they really meant was that the chair was so new and unusual that they were not used to it.
In the end, Chadwick and Stumpf decided to stick with the chair, and over time people began to really like it, with sales steadfastly increasing by 50% annually by the end of the 1990s and it became a huge success.
But what does this have to do with DmC, well Ninja Theory redesigned the entire game to be something radically different, and similar with the chair, people hate it despite the fact that it is actually a fun game with good combat mechanics.
Thus, it really is just the redesign of the characters and the world that people hate, which sub-conciously blinds them from everything else about the game.
BTW this is also true for many other things in real life and if you want to know more about this, I recommend reading Blink by Malcolm Gladwell. This specific example is in the book and I just had to post this after I had this apiphany while reading.

 

[majeh116]

Here's the thing though. A people (this is referring to people who's issue in the end is white hair and not those with genuine concerns) still aren't over it, and b this new game has plenty off issues. If this game was the step for hack and slash's like dmc and later bayonetta were I'd agree with you but I don't feel this game is a next step as much as it firmly standing in place.​

 

[MegaMad9]

Here's the thing though. A people (this is referring to people who's issue in the end is white hair and not those with genuine concerns) still aren't over it, and b this new game has plenty off issues. If this game was the step for hack and slash's like dmc and later bayonetta were I'd agree with you but I don't feel this game is a next step as much as it firmly standing in place.​

I get what you mean, but I never said it was the "next step" in hackn' slash games (I would equate it to MVC2 to UMVC3). I'm just saying that people's first impression of it is what is causing all of the hatred and that it will take a while for it to turn around. Now that I reread what I wrote, I should have added that the chair debuted in the early 1990s, but did not get big until the mid to late 1990s.

 

[V's patron]

I would say it was "too different to where it became unrecognizable as a DMC game".

Initially people thought it was too different as they couldn't reconcile the tgs 10 trailer with the rest of the franchise. So if it was a new IP instead of a DMC game they might not hate it as much.

So they saw it was a DMC game in name only because they felt DMC's name was slapped on it.

 

[EllDawn]

I would say it was "too different to where it became unrecognizable as a DMC game".

Initially people thought it was too different as they couldn't reconcile the tgs 10 trailer with the rest of the franchise. So if it was a new IP instead of a DMC game they might not hate it as much.

I think that if they made it a new IP, they'd just call it a copy of DMC because of all the similar themes. It's really something where the creators of the game just can't win.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I would say it was "too different to where it became unrecognizable as a DMC game".

Initially people thought it was too different as they couldn't reconcile the tgs 10 trailer with the rest of the franchise. So if it was a new IP instead of a DMC game they might not hate it as much.

So they saw it was a DMC game in name only because they felt DMC's name was slapped on it.

Well if you think about it, every DMC had a different style. There was never a "recognizable" DMC other then Dante having white hair and a red coat.

DMC1: J-movie cinima
DMC2: A dark gothic movie
DMC3: Anime movie
DMC4: shonen/romance anime movie
DmC: Hollywood/ British movie

Every DMC has had a different style, but the constant is that Dante always wears a red coat and has white hair.

So at first it was Dante's look that was the problem, and that just grew along with the FPS (Which no one really cared about until it was confirmed) figuring out this Dante is half angel, and a whole bunch of other hates for it.

But its exsistence is a sigh of the tradition changing and what they loved is slowly fading away.

Though I don't care cause I prefer the new look over the old anyway.^_^:troll:

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think that if they made it a new IP, they'd just call it a copy of DMC because of all the similar themes. It's really something where the creators of the game just can't win.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that if DmC were to just be its own, unique IP, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting or incredible as it could be. Story notwithstanding, so many things that make DmC cool and all that are things that they recreated from the classic portion of the franchise - the weapons, the combat, and the signature attacks.

Without that DMC DNA they constantly talked about that DmC has, I don't think it would have worked out to something as good :/

 

[berto]

I think that if they made it a new IP, they'd just call it a copy of DMC because of all the similar themes. It's really something where the creators of the game just can't win.

I don't agree. If it indeed had been a new IP with the DMC 'DNA' and they said that upfront the complain would've been more about why we'd have to wait for an actual DMC game over this hypotetical... Let's call it spin-off. Bayonetta drew in alot of DMC fans because it was a similar game and from the creator of the original DMC. Another similar game might need to prove itself but it deffinitly wouldn't've gotten such a cold reseption.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that if DmC were to just be its own, unique IP, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting or incredible as it could be. Story notwithstanding, so many things that make DmC cool and all that are things that they recreated from the classic portion of the franchise - the weapons, the combat, and the signature attacks.

Without that DMC DNA they constantly talked about that DmC has, I don't think it would have worked out to something as good :/

I'm not sure I agree with this ether, I can't say it's wrong because you might also be right, but I don't fully agree.

DmC was going on another direction when they first started out. Dante was a more notasably angry charater with a much more dark take on the character. There was medical torture, burning cigarets on demon's eyes, a scrawny protagonist with a grittier air to him, and less smiles and cockiness out of him; he didn't seem like the smiling type.

But its exsistence is a sigh of the tradition changing and what they loved is slowly fading away.

Yeah... Can't deny that.

The thing about this is that when DMC4 came out and the new car smell faded away and all of the issues started poping up definitly made it obvious that the games were getting stale, DMC4 was just not that fun by contrast to the one before that and I thought that the game was a sign of the end.

But then Bayonetta comes out. What a contrast! It isn't even a revolutionary game, it's not redefining squat, it simply took what I didn't realize was the natural evolution of the games of it's like, more specificly the DMC games, and it was great. The things that you can do in Bayonetta are things that you should've been able to do in DMC4, it goes the extra mile every where and on everything instead of just repeating what those that came before her did. Yes she takes them but then adds much more to 'em and it showed me that DMC has not, in fact, hit a dead end, it's just Capcom that wants to stick with what works and add a few things here and there. It feels as though they are taking DMC twards where Bayonetta is but at a rather slow pase.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I don't agree. If it indeed had been a new IP with the DMC 'DNA' and they said that upfront the complain would've been more about why we'd have to wait for an actual DMC game over this hypotetical... Let's call it spin-off. Bayonetta drew in alot of DMC fans because it was a similar game and from the creator of the original DMC. Another similar game might need to prove itself but it deffinitly wouldn't've gotten such a cold reseption.

I'm not sure I agree with this ether, I can't say it's wrong because you might also be right, but I don't fully agree.

DmC was going on another direction when they first started out. Dante was a more notasably angry charater with a much more dark take on the character. There was medical torture, burning cigarets on demon's eyes, a scrawny protagonist with a grittier air to him, and less smiles and cockiness out of him; he didn't seem like the smiling type.


Yeah... Can't deny that.

The thing about this is that when DMC4 came out and the new car smell faded away and all of the issues started poping up definitly made it obvious that the games were getting stale, DMC4 was just not that fun by contrast to the one before that and I thought that the game was a sign of the end.

But then Bayonetta comes out. What a contrast! It isn't even a revolutionary game, it's not redefining squat, it simply took what I didn't realize was the natural evolution of the games of it's like, more specificly the DMC games, and it was great. The things that you can do in Bayonetta are things that you should've been able to do in DMC4, it goes the extra mile every where and on everything instead of just repeating what those that came before her did. Yes she takes them but then adds much more to 'em and it showed me that DMC has not, in fact, hit a dead end, it's just Capcom that wants to stick with what works and add a few things here and there. It feels as though they are taking DMC twards where Bayonetta is but at a rather slow pase.

I'm not so sure Capcom is tking DMC to bayonetta. They're westernizing DMC, and even Tammen said he's not bringing any Bayonetta craziness into DmC. Now DMC might be a different story though.

 

[berto]

I'm not so sure Capcom is tking DMC to bayonetta. They're westernizing DMC, and even Tammen said he's not bringing any Bayonetta craziness into DmC. Now DMC might be a different story though.

I'm not talking about design but gameplay... Actually, there are quite a few elements from Bayonetta in DmC but that's besides the point.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I'm not talking about design but gameplay... Actually, there are quite a few elements from Bayonetta in DmC but that's besides the point.

Which I find a bit ironic cause Kamiya stole some stuff from DMC4, and now they're stealing a few things from Bayonetta. The endless vicious cycle.

 

[berto]

Which I find a bit ironic cause Kamiya stole some stuff from DMC4, and now they're stealing a few things from Bayonetta. The endless vicious cycle.

Don't say 'stole,' it makes it sound like a bad thing. Taking notes and using refrences isn't a bad thing and there is a very solid difference between that and down right ripping things off.

... What things did Kamiya use from DMC4?

edit: just realized how that statement could be missunderstood so to clarify I'm not implying that ether of those games were ripping anyone off.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Don't say 'stole,' it makes it sound like a bad thing. Taking notes and using refrences isn't a bad thing and there is a very solid difference between that and down right ripping things off.

... What things did Kamiya use from DMC4?

edit: just realized how that statement could be missunderstood so to clarify I'm not implying that ether of those games were ripping anyone off.

Well not rippng off but more so used.

 

[EllDawn]

I don't agree. If it indeed had been a new IP with the DMC 'DNA' and they said that upfront the complain would've been more about why we'd have to wait for an actual DMC game over this hypotetical... Let's call it spin-off. Bayonetta drew in alot of DMC fans because it was a similar game and from the creator of the original DMC. Another similar game might need to prove itself but it deffinitly wouldn't've gotten such a cold reseption.

It's what they said about Chaos Legion which had plenty of differences from DMC, and yet they called it a copy. I saw that in comments and reviews. With how much DMC and DmC have in common, they'd absolutely call it a copy.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that if DmC were to just be its own, unique IP, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting or incredible as it could be. Story notwithstanding, so many things that make DmC cool and all that are things that they recreated from the classic portion of the franchise - the weapons, the combat, and the signature attacks.

Without that DMC DNA they constantly talked about that DmC has, I don't think it would have worked out to something as good :/

Probably not. I'm sure some people would have bought it, but I'm also sure it wouldn't have gotten as much publicity as it is.

 

[berto]

It's what they said about Chaos Legion which had plenty of differences from DMC, and yet they called it a copy. I saw that in comments and reviews. With how much DMC and DmC have in common, they'd absolutely call it a copy.

Yeah, but if you present it as just that up front as opposed to saying it's a totally new thing or never mentioning the name of DMC then it won't cause as big a racuss.

It is a bit odd that CL would get crap about been similat to DMC. Even Capcomput it on the box, that it was right up DMC fans' alley. That should be a hint that its a similar game.

 

[EllDawn]

Yeah, but if you present it as just that up front as opposed to saying it's a totally new thing or never mentioning the name of DMC then it won't cause as big a racuss.

It is a bit odd that CL would get crap about been similat to DMC. Even Capcomput it on the box, that it was right up DMC fans' alley. That should be a hint that its a similar game.

The problem is there are going to be people that will notice the similarities, and then spread their own opinions around. At times they're really just reaching. Oddly enough I remember seeing a few comments that said DMC was pretty much a copy of GOW, which I didn't quite understand considering DMC was started first. It just becomes something for people to argue about.

 

[berto]

The problem is there are going to be people that will notice the similarities, and then spread their own opinions around. At times they're really just reaching. Oddly enough I remember seeing a few comments that said DMC was pretty much a copy of GOW, which I didn't quite understand considering DMC was started first. It just becomes something for people to argue about.

That and I do remember the staff of GoW talking about DMC as refrence. I get that, that there are people who just talk and don't know the history behind the games they are talking about, it's not like everyone follows every game they like or read about them.

 

[Sieghart]

The fun part is actually proving GoW fanboys wrong. They act as if God of War is "Da most original gamer ever!"
Their anguished face must be quite of a sight to behold when proven wrong. I have nothing against people who liked GoW though. It's just that most of them are fools. Most that i have talked to anyway.

 

[Sunaka Marién]

"u would be smart 2 buy Metal Gear Rising instead of this piece of ****"
"it is the same company but a different developer and different character but because the developer is ninja theory im positive this game will be horrible"
"ppl say there as nothing revolutionary about DMC 4 but there isnt anything revolutionary about this game unless u count slower framerate as revolutionary but other than that they took things from DMC and put them in a new game with the same name NT didnt do anything 2 make the franchise better."
(courtesy of nearly every single DmC video on youtube )

You can find comments like these everywhere on the internet, just people saying bad things about a game that actually works really well. But what does this mean? Why do people hate on this game so much? Is it really just Dante's hair?
Short version, yes, it really is just Dante's hair, but here's why.
In the early 1990s, two well known industrial designers named Don Chadwick and Bill Stumpf wanted to design the Aeron - the name for the most comfortable chair for the human body as possible (at that time anyway). The Aeron was their attempt to make something purposely different from the norm. Their first design consisted of a new mechanism to tilt the chair back, arms that were separate from the chair body for maximum movement, and made it out of a specially engineered mesh material to allow the skin as much comfort as possible. Once they completed their design, they decided to go into testing, and it was a complete failure. All of the test results said that their chair was ugly and uncomfortable.
Now, that does not make any sense, they put all of this work and money into making it comfortable and people say it's not. It's because of the chair design. At that time, the chair was so different from what people wanted. People wanted a chair to be like a throne, this chair was the opposite, it slouched to make your back more comfortable. Because people thought of it as ugly, they just said it was uncomfortable even because that's how they perceived it. Your unconcious mind cannot believe that something so different to what you know could be good and it immediately. People said that they hated it, but what they really meant was that the chair was so new and unusual that they were not used to it.
In the end, Chadwick and Stumpf decided to stick with the chair, and over time people began to really like it, with sales steadfastly increasing by 50% annually by the end of the 1990s and it became a huge success.
But what does this have to do with DmC, well Ninja Theory redesigned the entire game to be something radically different, and similar with the chair, people hate it despite the fact that it is actually a fun game with good combat mechanics.
Thus, it really is just the redesign of the characters and the world that people hate, which sub-conciously blinds them from everything else about the game.
BTW this is also true for many other things in real life and if you want to know more about this, I recommend reading Blink by Malcolm Gladwell. This specific example is in the book and I just had to post this after I had this apiphany while reading.

I guess that's pretty much the reason, but not only. I think that the problem is (at least for some) that this new game means loosing a beloved character. You see, even though this probably seems incredebly silly and nonsensical to many, fictional characters can be so much more than, well, "fictional characters" to some. Seeing them being chanced so drastically can feel like a puch in your face. It's... heartwrecking (._.) It's almost as if one of your loved ones died.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

My main point wasn't really how it would be received by people, because that's entirely subjective anyway, and dependent on the tastes of each person. Mainly, it's that without that DNA of DMC's that was used as the core for DmC, I don't think it'd be anywhere near the same game, gameplay-wise.

Despite this game's differences, all of the stuff that it has from the classic DMC series at its core is what makes it a decent game on its own merit, for how it crafted those signature elements into its own unique elements.

Essentially - without DMC, DmC as a new IP wouldn't be anywhere near the same, and that's a sad thought in my mind :C