does DmC reboot actually have deeper combat then DMC 4

[Caiden]

The lock on does change how the hit boxes work. If an attack has the proper spread any enemy can get caught in it. Many of Vergils attacks in DMC3 are meant to deal with multiple enemies. There has never been a limit in DMC to how many enemies can get hit by your attacks. It just all depends on what kind of attack spread the combo has. It's pretty easy to catch multiple enemies caught in a single attack in DMC4.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

The lock on does change how the hit boxes work. If an attack has the proper spread any enemy can get caught in it.

Yeah, get caught in it. Not bring them into it, or if they HAPPEN to be close enough. Where as with DmC there's a wider range for most of Dante's attacks to get everyone.

Many of Vergils attacks in DMC3 are meant to deal with multiple enemies. There has never been a limit in DMC to how many enemies can get hit by your attacks.

True with Vergil you could get multiple enemies with the spiral blades and such, but even so, that's not the same with DmC Vergil. DMC3 Vergil can't keep one enemy in front of him in the air with attacks, and another on the side, while a third one is in the back. DmC Vergil's gameplay can do that.

 

[Caiden]

Enemies really arn't meant to brought to you unless you're playing Nero. Darkslayer is built being able to quickly move from target to target and flank them. Just cause you can't rally your targets all into on area doesn't mean you can crowd control. Its pretty easy to switch targets and keep them in check. It just not something thats put right in front of your face. You are meant to develop your own way of dealing with multiple enemies.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Enemies really arn't meant to brought to you unless you're playing Nero. Darkslayer is built being able to quickly move from target to target and flank them. Just cause you can't rally your targets all into on area doesn't mean you can crowd control. Its pretty easy to switch targets and keep them in check. It just not something thats put right in front of your face. You are meant to develop your own way of dealing with multiple enemies.

Well not necessarily brought to you, but being able to get all of them in your sights and knowing how to handle all of them at once.

If Darkslayer is meant to switch from target to target, then that just proves what I said before. Vergil has to go from one to another, unlike DmC Vergil, who could get three of them into the air in one move.

Actually that IS crowd control; getting all enemies into your sight and dealing with all of them without giving them room to strike or not leaving one alone. That's why I say DmC has better crowd control because Dante and Vergil can get a whole bunch of enemies into the air and keep them there for a longer number then DMC3 and DMC4. Plus, DmC has wider arc attacks to handle a whole bunch of enemies.

And I know of developing styles of attack on enemies. You can do that on DMC and DmC.

 

[Caiden]

I never said it wasn't crowd control. All I am saying is that crowd control has always been a part of DMC. I find that crowd control in the originals is based more around how you develop your own preference in keeping target in check. Where as in DmC it feels like this concept is streamlined so that you can control most of the smaller enemies around you with only a few button combos. I can understand why some people might prefer this style but for me personally I always construct my own style. In DmC it's tough to develop my own style because to best way to do things is pretty much handed to you at times and even forced.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think there's a difference between how you handle crowds in the classics as opposed to DmC, mainly by what DragonMaster was saying. The classics aren't really about crowd-control as much as they are you just fighting a group of enemies. DmC's combat has a lot of positioning tactics to consider and make use of, which is often countered by the enemy's AI. They'll bunch up of you're trying to divide them up to protect the group, and they'll often surround you and interrupt your combos from the flank while you're attacking another.

DmC's weapon offer a bit more variety of purpose in that regard, like how Aquila is perfectly suited for zoning and spacing, while Osiris is perfect for hitting whatever is around and for verticality (most of its move are all about goin' up!). Arbiter is straightforward in hitting ahead of you, and Eryx is for hitting really close or getting enemies away. Rebellion then is that balance of everything, and whatever isn't covered by Rebellion is covered by his firearms; E&I holds, Revenant pushes away or pops up, and Kablooey spreads clustered enemies apart.

The standard smallfry in the classics didn't do a whole lot more than approach and attack (each of the Hells in DMC3 does this differently), but in DmC they don't. It was actually clever to make a spectacle hack 'n' slash game like a Devil May Cry and build the enemy's AI around interrupting those combos we love to do so much; essentially making the enemies not just a threat to your vitality bar, but also a threat to your spectacle. It's a deliberate action on the enemy's part to attempt to interrupt an attack, and that's why if you just stand around, so do they for the most part.

 

[Caiden]

I wouldn't really call it positioning tactics. I find it quite easy to get a group in the air and I REALLY don't like that. For a lot of enemies in the games the air is where they can be most vulnerable. In most DMC games one can only really keep a few small fry up in the air which is why all of them are given jumping attacks. While you are so fixed on taking advantage of the demon you trapped in the air, you don't always notice the one that going to get you so it make even the easiest of enemies a threat. The mega scarecrows always get me as I am coming out of an air combo. But in DmC you can just rack them all up and keep using angel weapons. As long as you keep angel combos going and keep an eye on the tough guy of the group it is pretty easy to exploit the weaker enemies. It's nice and flashy but for me it losses its touch after awhile.

 

[VineBigBoss]

I think there's a difference between how you handle crowds in the classics as opposed to DmC, mainly by what DragonMaster was saying. The classics aren't really about crowd-control as much as they are you just fighting a group of enemies. DmC's combat has a lot of positioning tactics to consider and make use of, which is often countered by the enemy's AI. They'll bunch up of you're trying to divide them up to protect the group, and they'll often surround you and interrupt your combos from the flank while you're attacking another.

I agree with this, but disagree with some things said there. While i do see where you come from with the crowd control thing, i think the design and the IA of the monster don't really fits that well in that role, i mean, in DmC as opposed to DMC games you have a lot of moves with great hitboxes or that have a lot of AOE to control who is around Dante. But with most, and when i say most, i'm kinda being literal here because there's just some exceptions for this rule: when you fight things in the air (which even beginners can do a lot in this game) most enemies become much, much less of threat, this was true in DMC3 too for a handful of bad guys, and was kinda "corrected" in DMC4 as even the most basic enemies had precise (but slow in that case) "anti-air" movements that forces you to dodge or stop your aerial strings sometimes. I find that DmC was really lackin in that aspect, the monsters who did threatened me while i was going crazy in the air was witches, butchers and drekavacs, even those guys with wings were too damn complacent with my strings.

DmC's weapon offer a bit more variety of purpose in that regard, like how Aquila is perfectly suited for zoning and spacing, while Osiris is perfect for hitting whatever is around and for verticality (most of its move are all about goin' up!). Arbiter is straightforward in hitting ahead of you, and Eryx is for hitting really close or getting enemies away. Rebellion then is that balance of everything, and whatever isn't covered by Rebellion is covered by his firearms; E&I holds, Revenant pushes away or pops up, and Kablooey spreads clustered enemies apart.

Compared to DMC3, here i tend to agree because you have limitations on how much weapons you could use at the same time. But Nevan was the ultimate zonning/spacing weapon, it was the only and unique weapon at the game with heavy crowd control moves like that bat vortex and projecticles that stunned a lot and caused quite a damage on monters. It could be used up close and for JC/aerial combat if you had swordmaster active too. In DMC4, i think that Reb and Luci can be well-placed in some zonning tactic, you have drive, overdrive, round trip and even reverse stingers to help you move while on ground with Reb, with Luci you could summon a bunch of swords and choose a direction to leave them or "throw" them; it's basically what this weapon does anyway.

The standard smallfry in the classics didn't do a whole lot more than approach and attack (each of the Hells in DMC3 does this differently), but in DmC they don't. It was actually clever to make a spectacle hack 'n' slash game like a Devil May Cry and build the enemy's AI around interrupting those combos we love to do so much; essentially making the enemies not just a threat to your vitality bar, but also a threat to your spectacle. It's a deliberate action on the enemy's part to attempt to interrupt an attack, and that's why if you just stand around, so do they for the most part.

Yes, it was basically one "approach and attack" behaviour. In DMC4 they just added movements (mainly the anti-air ones that i've mentioned before) and improved the IA. The Angelos can act quite differently from other monters in any of the other games, as they had formations and all that things when one Alto was with them.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I wouldn't really call it positioning tactics. I find it quite easy to get a group in the air and I REALLY don't like that. For a lot of enemies in the games the air is where they can be most vulnerable. In most DMC games one can only really keep a few small fry up in the air which is why all of them are given jumping attacks. While you are so fixed on taking advantage of the demon you trapped in the air, you don't always notice the one that going to get you so it make even the easiest of enemies a threat. The mega scarecrows always get me as I am coming out of an air combo. But in DmC you can just rack them all up and keep using angel weapons. As long as you keep angel combos going and keep an eye on the tough guy of the group it is pretty easy to exploit the weaker enemies. It's nice and flashy but for me it losses its touch after awhile.

Well, the emphasis on aerial combat is simply something that DmC was trying to do to separate itself from the classics. It's one of the main things they wanted to do differently. The classics were never about grand aerial combat like what we're capable of on the ground, and what aerial combat is there was simply because of an exploit. DmC expanded off of Dante and Nero's smaller air game to offer something that I guess they felt was missing.

I'd also say that only half of DmC's enemies are actually vulnerable in the air, namely the three different kinds of Stygian, the Knights, the Reapers, and then the Tyrant, but they're a bit more difficult to launch. The Butcher is like the Tyrant, but is extremely heavy, and not a lot can launch him, so the challenge comes from just keeping the thing in the air. Then we have the Rages that can fly out of any combo after a few hits, the Witches can 'port out, Drekavac and Dreamrunners actively counter ground and aerial combos - even countering your combos on OTHER enemies (real d!ck move). Then we have Harpies that don't flinch a whole lot while flying, and Pathos and Bathos have shields to protect themselves, but are otherwise the smallest of the smallfry :tongue:

Plus, some of the tactics for keeping things in the air directly and negatively affects your Style, which is supposed to be something we worry about.

 

[Caiden]

I don't mind expanding aerial combat. In fact I like to spend a lot of my time in DMC4 in the air. But I just don't like how easy it is to exploit some of the weaker enemies by keeping them in the air as a group. It might be time for me to do another run through of DmC to really grasp its concepts again.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It's tough because it's possible (on lower difficulties) to sorta gloss over some of the details or concepts behind how a weapon operates. You look at something like OppressedWriter's vids and you can see a how some of that all comes together, especially with set-ups, which I think DmC emphasizes a bit more as well (which reminds me a lot of Cedrus' combo vids, too).

I'm not sure what difficulties you've played on, but I'd say the concepts do start to shine on DMD, especially when you try to shrink the gaps of inactivity during fights. DmC's arsenal gives you a lot of options, and while it's easy enough to blaze through the game using them in a more "shallow" way, you can end up having a lot more fun when you make use of those options.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I don't mind expanding aerial combat. In fact I like to spend a lot of my time in DMC4 in the air. But I just don't like how easy it is to exploit some of the weaker enemies by keeping them in the air as a group. It might be time for me to do another run through of DmC to really grasp its concepts again.

Here's a challenge; launch the butcher into the air, like really high, then use helm breaker the opposite direction as the butcher, and from there wait till he gets in range of attack. Now try keeping it in the air while using ground attacks.

Same thing with the Tyrant.

 

[VineBigBoss]

I'm getting DmC on PS Plus this month and i'll be able to explore much more of the game having it in here.

 

[berto]

DMC doesn't focus on crowd control like DmC does. DMC has the style of single attacking each enemy around you. For example, DMC4 Dante can't hit everyone with some of his weapons at once. He has to lock on from one enemy to the next to do some of his attacks. Meanwhile with DmC, you don't have that limitation and are free to just slash away at all enemies around you without having to lock on to only one individual enemy.

That is not a universally good thing, specially with the design choice to have of color coded enemies. Prioritizing an enemy is pretty important when you have enemies that have a tendency to be more aggressive than the rest and with a camera that tries to over compensate for lack of lock on really hinders at times. Rather than one or the other I rather have both.

 

[Bazilican]

Nope, but in its defense isn't that suppose to be the point of DmC; dumbed down for other gamers to catch up.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

I keep seeing the mention of DmC having crowd control and being able t attack multiple enemies and nobody has stated that that fact is due to Osiris Aquila and the grappling hooks if you had weapons like that in any other DMC it would have the same effect and you can use crowd control in dmc3 and dmc4 but its on a lesser amount because of the weapons your using like for instance under the right circumstances I can JC 3 frosts together or multiple lizards or Fausts or two angelos togetherso your not limited to one enemy at a time like its been stated and I know you can attack more in DmC but was Dante not a meohilim and had no angel weapons it wouldn't be possible just my view dnt want to offend anyone

 

[OppressedWriter]

I keep seeing the mention of DmC having crowd control and being able t attack multiple enemies and nobody has stated that that fact is due to Osiris Aquila and the grappling hooks if you had weapons like that in any other DMC it would have the same effect and you can use crowd control in dmc3 and dmc4 but its on a lesser amount because of the weapons your using like for instance under the right circumstances I can JC 3 frosts together or multiple lizards or Fausts or two angelos togetherso your not limited to one enemy at a time like its been stated and I know you can attack more in DmC but was Dante not a meohilim and had no angel weapons it wouldn't be possible just my view dnt want to offend anyone

It would man, definitely a good point, that's actually something if you took away in DmC would make the game a bit more difficult to be honest, but boy am I spoiled by aquilas its so damn op and fun to use.

 

[OppressedWriter]

That is not a universally good thing, specially with the design choice to have of color coded enemies. Prioritizing an enemy is pretty important when you have enemies that have a tendency to be more aggressive than the rest and with a camera that tries to over compensate for lack of lock on really hinders at times. Rather than one or the other I rather have both.

To be fair, the game is smart enough to auto target the colored enemies if you're using the right weapons . It's like a smart way to enhance the reliability of soft lock during combat without a dedicated lock on, but yeah, you won't see me arguing for colored enemies. I think they were implemented improperly, and should have been like the fat tank guys. That all weaposn damage them, but only the colored ones make them flinch.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

It would man, definitely a good point, that's actually something if you took away in DmC would make the game a bit more difficult to be honest, but boy am I spoiled by aquilas its so damn op and fun to use.

ya Aquila really does kick ass love jcing enemies in the air with it then Osiris shuffle em angel dodge down and charge the Aquila tornado spin move to catch em in when they drop its cool

 

[The Final Offer]

To me. The depth in DmC's combat is the ability to be creative. So much freedom there. I went back yesterday to attempt Sam D's style of gameplay and found myself creating a different conclusion than his. I felt like I had my own signature twist to Sam D's combo.

I don't like to do button unlock or as some of you call it dial-a-combo. Some people don't know the reason for this, so I'll bring it up here. Dial a combo has a preset conclusion. With DmC's Scorpion system, I'm not limited to just that conclusion, I can make my own.