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DMC Dante= DC , DmC Dante =MARVEL

Stylish Nero said:
BLECK GARK BLAH
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Frost said:
DmC only has two enemies that require a little bit of thought to defeat: Dreamrunner and Witch. You can't mindlessly attack them, though there still aren't many different ways to beat them. With other enemies you're just smashing their shields (Hell Knight) or attacking them from behind (Tyrant). Most of the enemies have the same generic humanoid features without any distinctive characteristics.

In DMC1 you had Shadows, Fetishes, Frosts, Nobodies, Plasmas and Sin Scythes. Each of them looked unique, acted differently and required varied tactics to beat. Attacking them without a clear strategy in mind got you killed in seconds.

I agree that DMC4 was very lazily designed, but it still offered much more enemy variety than DmC did.
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I would argue that the reason the enemies are so simple to dispatch alone is that because the challenge or complexity is supposed to arise from the mixing and matching of different enemy types. Also, most of the enemies are weak to certain tactics, its just that you can use all available tactics to dispatch of them, which I would think most people would be praising, because of the whole furor of color coded enemies. I mean, the way I see it, aside from the color coded enemies, all the other enemies can be taken care of in whatever way the player decides, which promotes combo variety. Hell, if you utilize Devil Trigger properly, you can dispatch of all color coded mobs with all weapons as well.

I think DmC is more like an action movie sandbox, where each level is like a new set for the player to direct his action sequences in.

That being said, more enemies like the dreamrunners will certainly be welcome in any future installments. There does seem to be way too much emphasis on masses of fodder enemies more so than the older games.

Just for comparison sake, here's the enemies from DmC vs DMC. I think what confuses me is that the tactics you are mentioning; how are they any different from the requirement of specific weapons for color coded enemies? I mean, in DMC you need to utilize certain weapons in order to take care of certain enemies. And the way I see it, in DmC, the color coding is just a more visual way to let the player know or be forced to do the same thing, oh, use this weapon against this enemy type without requiring them to go online or experiment to figure it out.

DmC Enemies
Lesser Stygian, Stygian, and Elite Stygian

Hell Knight, Frost Knight, and Death Knight

Ravager (Chainsaw Guy, always waiting for the player to fall onto his chainsaw if he descends from an aerial combo)

Harpy (A modern version of the faust, especially that long blade that reaches the player from across the screen.)

Pathos and Bathos (the little cherubs with crossbows and bombs)

Tyrant (The Tanks with the weak spots on their back)

Butcher (only weak in front, invulnerable to guns, and aquilas)

Baby Rage, Rage, Ghost Rage, Blood Rage (Different varieties of very aggressive enemies)

Witch (A defensive enemy, not very difficult solo, but complicates battles in a group)

Dreamrunner/Drekovac (best enemies in game, especially interesting in groups)

DMC Enemies

Marionette (Marionette & Bloody Mari) (Fodder like the Stygians in DmC)

Sin Scissors & Scythe (Sin Scissors, Sin Scythe, Death Scissors, Death Scythe) (Similar to Butcher, Slow Powerful ranged attacks can only be attacked in one part of body, spinning blades at close range, they also embody various different techniques like disappearing through walls etc that can be seen in other DmC enemies like dreamrunner, flying + long range attacks DmC Harpy)

Shadow (Old school DmC Rage, have to break shield first to expose core with guns, not much different from having color coded weapon requirements in DmC, they also have an auto parry similar to the dreamrunners, also very much )

Beelzebub (also like Bathos and Pathos, flying nuisance enemy)

Kyklops (sort of like the tank drone (a little imprisoner as well, with the rock throwing and what not), a heavily armored enemy thats stupid but has a weak point, you can also trick it into running into other enemies)

Blade = (DmC Hell Knights are like this as well, have to break shields and usually fight them in packs, but also a little like dreamruners in that they can teleport to attack the player from another direction.)

Sargasso - (little flying nuisances, much like the bathos and pathos enemies, also their freeze attack is seen in the frost knight, also their whole can only be attacked when see thing is similar to the color coded mechanic on the rages if you think about it, that you have to be holding a button in order to attack a certain rage).

Nobody (The DmC Butcher has some elements of this enemy, the explosion on death, the long range blade/bomb attacks)

Fetish (Also has some elements that the DmC Witch takes, the shield it shoots around, the detonation it has if a player is too close)

Frost (similar to dmc witch, regenerating shield, raises area of spikes from under ground, teleports around battlefield)

Plasma (Alastor can't damage them, nor can nightmare (color coded enemy type restriction), Can't think of a particular DmC enemy that is just like this one, but it has various long range attacks, mimics the player, splits into copies if not killed fast enough )

Anyway, as you can see, the enemies in DmC and DMC both share various attack designs and patterns, the difference is that DmC is more lax in dodge requirements, and weapon specificity when it comes to its various monsters. If the game simply modified its enemy damage values, and lowered the evade reaction time, a lot of the encounters would also be just as tactical, because you'd want to get rid of certain enemies as fast as possible in order to avoid being hit by their attacks.
 
Stylish Nero said:
As for DMC's and DmC's art and design appeal maybe it never appeared in your self indulgent little head of yours people have varying art preferences. Maybe some like DmC's or DMC's own approach at art design because you know Gothic designs were something that was very popular and well liked once during the Renaissance and Victorian era and to this day is still too. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't make it bad, and just because you prefer it it doesn't make it any better.

No the fact that the platforming is generally the same thing over and over again (demon pull, angel, and angel whip rinse and repeat and over and over and over again with very little variation). If DmC was a platformer it would be the worst kind of platformer.

DMC was never about platforming, just because DmC's has a stronger emphasis (when your not fighting your platforming), doesn't mean its one aspect DMC was about.

As for DmC's diversity its not really as diversed as you claim it is.Still pretty nice at times. My favorite is the NightClub what is yours?
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I'm actually a big fan of Gothic arhitecture and the Victorian era. To me it was actually nice in DMC3 to get through those designs,I found the Temenigru's design to be pretty cool.
Of course I can get bored of them,that's why I found DMC4's change in level designs to be a refreshing change and I also liked the graphics.
But since we get a DMC game once every 4/5 years I don't know if I get that bored of them,because I play other games too.
It's nice for a game to have a certain theme,to be known for that one thing for example gothic castles,family matters,stylish gameplay.Just like DMC.
I think if DMC was to be made in our days it'd be a lot much more good looking because things improved.
At least DMC4 was good for something even if it's not really my favourite DMC. I liked its gameplay and design,but the rest was pretty poor.

Now to DmC. I liked its level design a lot. It was creative and nice especially Limbo. We can't say that DmC is repetitive because it only has one game.
Actually the thing I found repetitive were the boss fights,I felt like I knew exactly their weak spots and where to attack and it felt repetitive because I seemed to do it endlessly.
I've expected much more from that Mundus fight,it bored me. Most boss fights were on platforms where you had to teleport from platform to platform. In DMC4 you only did it in one boss fight.
I liked the Bob Barbas one and the Vergil one of course. The Barbas one was most creative if you ask me.

That's why I feel they focused more on level design and such rather than the boss fights,yes it was an visual delight,but where's the fun in boss fights?
 
I do wish the boss fights in DmC were tougher. Limbo is really cool and the boss fights are quite the spectacle but the actual fights aren't really all that.

The final Vergil fight was the only one on the game I'd put on par with others in the series. I get more challenge though from facing the smaller enemies and I wished the game would toss a couple more of those dreamrunners at me.
 
OppressedWriter said:
That being said, more enemies like the dreamrunners will certainly be welcome in any future installments. There does seem to be way too much emphasis on masses of fodder enemies more so than the older games.

^Yep, that's definitely an issue. I would rather fight a few tough enemies who constantly keep me on my toes than an army of fodder enemies who barely make an effort to fight back.

Just for comparison sake, here's the enemies from DmC vs DMC. I think what confuses me is that the tactics you are mentioning; how are they any different from the requirement of specific weapons for color coded enemies? I mean, in DMC you need to utilize certain weapons in order to take care of certain enemies. And the way I see it, in DmC, the color coding is just a more visual way to let the player know or be forced to do the same thing, oh, use this weapon against this enemy type without requiring them to go online or experiment to figure it out.

^The difference is that DMC never forces you to use certain weapons. Some weapons are more effective than others, yes, but you can still use the weapons that are not as effective. In DmC some of the weapons are completely blocked and you have to use the very specific ones, you can't just switch for variety's sake or to increase your stylish meter.

Marionette (Marionette & Bloody Mari) (Fodder like the Stygians in DmC)

^I wouldn't consider Marionettes fodder enemies. They can be deadly even in small groups, and they make an effort to attack Dante often and viciously. They also have very damaging attacks, and you can't just fight them without constantly watching your back.

Sin Scissors & Scythe (Sin Scissors, Sin Scythe, Death Scissors, Death Scythe) (Similar to Butcher, Slow Powerful ranged attacks can only be attacked in one part of body, spinning blades at close range, they also embody various different techniques like disappearing through walls etc that can be seen in other DmC enemies like dreamrunner, flying + long range attacks DmC Harpy)

^Scissors and Scythes at least float unpredictably and use many different attacks that require different tactics to avoid. You can just attack them until they die or take a careful aim and kill them in one blast. How is Butcher comparable to them? They have a charge attack and swinging attack. Killing them feels the same as killing any Stygian.

Shadow (Old school DmC Rage, have to break shield first to expose core with guns, not much different from having color coded weapon requirements in DmC, they also have an auto parry similar to the dreamrunners, also very much )

^Shadows are VERY different from Rages. You have to attack their surface with firearms until their core is exposed, then attack the core with melee weapons. But you don't have to, you can just stand on their spike and concentrate your fire until it dies. Shadows also constantly employ different tactics even when they are exposed. With Rages you just have to pick the right color and keep smashing the attack button. Barely any strategy needed.

Blade = (DmC Hell Knights are like this as well, have to break shields and usually fight them in packs, but also a little like dreamruners in that they can teleport to attack the player from another direction.)

^Hell Knights are pretty much helpless and just like any Stygian once you destroy their shield. Blades constantly outmaneuver you and destroying their shield merely gives you a chance to attack them without being blocked. Blades are never at a disadvantage unless you figure out how to finish them off in a single hit, and that doesn't make them any easier to fight. They also have many different attacks depending on range and position. Hell Knights have pretty much the same as most enemies in DmC, charge and swing.

Nobody (The DmC Butcher has some elements of this enemy, the explosion on death, the long range blade/bomb attacks)

^Can't see the similarity. The attacks are completely different. Nobodies throw explosive bombs, they attack with grabs, body slams and punches. Butcher charges and swings. Nobodies are very agile and can only be interrupted with a well placed attack. Butcher has a generic invulnerability glow on him.

Fetish (Also has some elements that the DmC Witch takes, the shield it shoots around, the detonation it has if a player is too close)

^This is actually a pretty accurate comparison.

Frost (similar to dmc witch, regenerating shield, raises area of spikes from under ground, teleports around battlefield)

^And so is this.

Plasma (Alastor can't damage them, nor can nightmare (color coded enemy type restriction), Can't think of a particular DmC enemy that is just like this one, but it has various long range attacks, mimics the player, splits into copies if not killed fast enough )

^Alastor can damage them, it's just very ineffective unless you are Devil Triggered.

Anyway, as you can see, the enemies in DmC and DMC both share various attack designs and patterns, the difference is that DmC is more lax in dodge requirements, and weapon specificity when it comes to its various monsters. If the game simply modified its enemy damage values, and lowered the evade reaction time, a lot of the encounters would also be just as tactical, because you'd want to get rid of certain enemies as fast as possible in order to avoid being hit by their attacks.
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As my examples hopefully proved, the game needs a lot more than just modified enemy values. It simply needs more different enemies who have their distinct behaviors and tactics. In DmC most of the enemies just seemed to be mild variations from others.
 
Actually, Alastor could work on Plasma, but it was not only not as potent, but also cuts Plasma in two, creating more Plasmas to deal with >.< If you're punching it with Ifrit, it can't split on ya.
 
Frost said:
As my examples hopefully proved, the game needs a lot more than just modified enemy values. It simply needs more different enemies who have their distinct behaviors and tactics. In DmC most of the enemies just seemed to be mild variations from others.
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I really do think however if I merely changed a few values on even a hell knight, you'd find them just as difficult, if I upped their parrying percentage and attack frequency, and also the amount of damage they inflict or deliver depending on the weapon of choice you'd find yourself struggling when dealing with various groups of enemies. The point is that doing that limits combo potential because it makes the game more tactical and requires you to use specific strategies to eliminate enemies. In DmC, you can combo any enemy with all matters of weapons especially if you use devil trigger. As for Rages, I don't think they're quite as easy as you're making them out to be. I think its DmC's fault that the mobs weren't more intense, but I bet if you try out a custom wave with 4 rages, you'll find yourself moving around and dodging a lot more than usual.
 
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