DmC/3/4 Style Meter Behavior

[TWOxACROSS]

Tell it walkin', sister.

 

[Innsmouth]

I see :woot:

 

[LordOfDarkness]

@Innsmouth , @TWOxACROSS -

I really don’t get what the problem is between you two, but this isn’t the first time you’ve both butted heads. And it’s no surprise to me that you’re both bickering as usual. It’s bound to happen if either of you step into each other’s threads. This is why you should both ignore each other. But time and time again despite our efforts you decide not to do that and engage in arguments instead.

For this I’m going to give you both a single warning, and I would like to urge others as well not to encourage this sort of behaviour by liking posts or getting involved themselves with the arguing. Should you see it happening you should either report the posts to us or simply don’t encourage or add fuel to the fire. You don’t want yourself getting a warning for doing so as well.

That’s all.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

EDIT: Forget it, not worth it. Would be nice if we could just get back on topic. HEY HOW 'BOUT THOSE STYLE METER INTRICACIES?

 

[Innsmouth]

@LordOfDarkness
Sorry, but I think it getting ridiculous. I made simple statement on topic about certain problem and described it. Result? I got accused of "****ting on game", despite I was talking about certain problem directly related to topic, met with flood of swearing, which is by the way prohibited as far as I remember and told that Style Meter is irrelevant anyway, despite this thread being about Style Meter. I already said, if people don't want to talk about certain topic, they shouldn't make topics about it, because grown up people can talk about stuff they disagree about without resorting to flood of swearing or making idiotic images out of responses. I didn't started this theater and I don't understand reason behind it, especially since apparently talking about any issue with DmC's system is considering "****ting on the game". If talking about issues with certain system in games is considered ****ting, than maybe we should prohibit any kind of criticism for DMC or DmC to prevent farther arguments.

 

[BrawlMan]

A couple more things about the style system for DmC. There is dynamic music for when your style gets to an A or higher, and lyrics will kick in or the song will crescendo. Dante's speed will increase when maintaing style ratings at S or higher, but demons are more likely to atttack him at the highest style combo. This is especially true on Gods Must Die in DE. It's definitely a bit different from 3 & 4 where lesser demons would just use their more powerful attacks more often or gain some new ones.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

There's definitely the music thing, which DMC5 is retaining, although I think it doesn't recede if you're rank goes down, which it seems to do in DMC5. I remember hearing something about the speed increase, but I never looked into it. The enemy aggression thing is something that I love in DmC, actually.

From what I've been able to tell toying with them, there's the concern that the enemies stand around a lot, but there's an interesting mechanic at work in their behavior. They'll attack you after a little bit, but they're main goal isn't just damaging you, it's knocking you out of combos and dumping your Style rank. Plus, if you move, they'll move, and they usually move to flank, because they don't seem to want to stand in front of you, where all the shooty-slashy happens - take a step forward, they shuffle back a bit, just out of the reach of your first slash; turn a bit, and they'll shuffle sideways to keep on your flank. They'll stand around, but the moment you go in on an enemy, they'll start positioning to attack and interrupt your combo. They aren't gonna always make the first move unless they have some kind of advantage, but if you're just standing around, well, you're a sitting duck to them. It seems to mostly be with the stygians and knights though, since the other enemies already have advantages on you, from either being able to teleport, flying, or being so damn big.

Another thing I noticed is that the enemies don't every seem to just throw themselves at you. In the classic DMCs, especially DMC3, it's sorta funny how often I'll do something like Million Stabs and enemies just walk or hop right into the blender. Like hey, free Style points, but it really highlights how much the enemies are sandbags to beat on a lot of the time. I wonder how enemies will react in DMC5, if they'll throw themselves at you, or have a bit more of a tactical side like the stygians do. kinda fun to think that I'll have something else to do in the game, apparently I like the granularity like that in games.

 

[BrawlMan]

There's definitely the music thing, which DMC5 is retaining, although I think it doesn't recede if you're rank goes down, which it seems to do in DMC5. I remember hearing something about the speed increase, but I never looked into it. The enemy aggression thing is something that I love in DmC, actually.

From what I've been able to tell toying with them, there's the concern that the enemies stand around a lot, but there's an interesting mechanic at work in their behavior. They'll attack you after a little bit, but they're main goal isn't just damaging you, it's knocking you out of combos and dumping your Style rank. Plus, if you move, they'll move, and they usually move to flank, because they don't seem to want to stand in front of you, where all the shooty-slashy happens - take a step forward, they shuffle back a bit, just out of the reach of your first slash; turn a bit, and they'll shuffle sideways to keep on your flank. They'll stand around, but the moment you go in on an enemy, they'll start positioning to attack and interrupt your combo. They aren't gonna always make the first move unless they have some kind of advantage, but if you're just standing around, well, you're a sitting duck to them. It seems to mostly be with the stygians and knights though, since the other enemies already have advantages on you, from either being able to teleport, flying, or being so damn big.

Another thing I noticed is that the enemies don't every seem to just throw themselves at you. In the classic DMCs, especially DMC3, it's sorta funny how often I'll do something like Million Stabs and enemies just walk or hop right into the blender. Like hey, free Style points, but it really highlights how much the enemies are sandbags to beat on a lot of the time. I wonder how enemies will react in DMC5, if they'll throw themselves at you, or have a bit more of a tactical side like the stygians do. kinda fun to think that I'll have something else to do in the game, apparently I like the granularity like that in games.

I saw footage from several gameplay videos of 5, and the battle music does recede if hit or repeatedly use the same combos.

The harpies do a similar thing the stygians do after you shoot off their wings, unless you grab them or pull yourself towards them.

 

[berto]

I'm going to have to go play some DMC4 and DmC before I have my final say on the matter but as it stands I disagree with a lot of the points being raised. From what I've read my understanding is that said argument is that DmC's style meter is not that bad or even different from the other games, namely 3 and 4. Well, I can tell, from having the controller in my hands, that I've had an far easier time getting S ranks in DmC than in any other DMC game. You can argue the point that all those games have loopholes, exploits and cheap tactics that let you raise it drastically (I'm only referring to 3, 4 and DmC in this post) but in DmC those exploits are much easier to pull off and since once you hit S rank the only way to drop from there is to take a hit so it's easier to achieve and to maintain. The bigger issue, though, has to be how eagerly the game game gives out S ranks in the final mission score. It's not difficult to to get so the incentive to improve is not as high; you've already achieved the highest score possible, what's the point of trying to get better?

I don't know if this is necessarily a bad thing as much as simply the way the game wants the player to interpret their playing. I have friends who hate Japanese games because they are constantly being judged and getting low scores, like Cs, when they thought they were on fire. This game is most definitely made for them because they don't want to improve, they want the instant gratification so they can move on to the next title with a huge sense of accomplishment. That's your casual player, the one that they were trying get into the series. The game was trying to be inviting, which, if my friends are indicative of the general populous, was the way to go. It wasn't always like that with my friends, by the way. They used to crave the challenge but they're getting old. This isn't a bad thing, simply the way this particular game has set its priorities, rather than demanding that the player get better to give them a sense of accomplishment. I don't like it but the ranking in this game is something I can ignore since it's made trivial to me by its generosity. Hard Core mode, though, is more to my liking.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I saw footage from several gameplay videos of 5, and the battle music does recede if hit or repeatedly use the same combos.

Yeah, I figured. That seems the better way to do it.

The harpies do a similar thing the stygians do after you shoot off their wings, unless you grab them or pull yourself towards them.

Yeah that's true! Once they're grounded they skitter around and keep their distance. Harpies are also one of the enemies that feel most notorious for interrupting combos, with both the swooping and spearing attacks. Baaasically a flying stygian.

I'm going to have to go play some DMC4 and DmC before I have my final say on the matter but as it stands I disagree with a lot of the points being raised. From what I've read my understanding is that said argument is that DmC's style meter is not that bad or even different from the other games, namely 3 and 4. Well, I can tell, from having the controller in my hands, that I've had an far easier time getting S ranks in DmC than in any other DMC game.

Oh, I'm not arguing whether it's easier, I know it is. I was just pointing out the behavior of the Style meters, spurred from how people say "DmC is bad because you can spam Triangle and get an S-rank," and I was like "I...don't think that's true," and then started to wonder about the granularity of the different Style meters in general. Even though DmC's system will hand out Style if you even sneeze next to a demon, you still have to vary your attacks if you want that Style.

I'm also wondering about another thing - taunts. I love using taunts in DMC games, primarily for generating magic, but obviously they pump up your Style. DmC doesn't have taunts, so did they take that into account when balancing Style accumulation? Similarly, do people think it's harder to generate Style in the classics because taunts were factored in to the balance and they can end up an afterthought?

The bigger issue, though, has to be how eagerly the game game gives out S ranks in the final mission score. It's not difficult to to get so the incentive to improve is not as high; you've already achieved the highest score possible, what's the point of trying to get better?

This is the kind of disingenuous part, because everyone plays games differently. Concerning oneself with the idea over the incentive to improve is just sorta...like...silly? Of course, if it matters to you, you might not like it, but to say it's a massive indictment on the game seems a stretch. Like, what matters in a DMC game is that you feel cool, doing the things you think are cool, and the Style meter is never going to be able to properly measure that feeling for you, especially since it's literally just tracking aggression, variety, and defense, all to give you more orbs. It's a lot of stock to put into the game giving the player a pat on the back, simply for following some very simple guidelines. The excitement in the game comes from the tough enemies, right? We still don't want to get hit, we want to use different weapons and attacks because it's fun, right?

Then, there's the TrueStyle stuff, the game certainly can't factor in how cool it is that you decided to do a combo the way one might do it, choosing to use a very specific action for a specific purpose instead of another. No, the Style meter just wants you to not repeat the same attack. TrueStyle stuff even transcends the bounds of games that even have Style meters, I've seen badass combo videos for Lightning Returns!

Hell, even in DmC, how much less do you have to do to get an S compared to the classics? I'm now rather curious as to how much "easier" it actually is to get an S-rank in comparison between DmC and like, DMC4 (it's closest Style meter kin). I wanna look into that now! It's like some science~ When people say "it's easy to get an S-rank," what do they mean, is it the ease of enemies broadcasting their attacks more, or that they attack less frequently, or is it actually in the fundamental process of building up Style through aggressive and varied attacks?

Anyway, sure there's exploits - in all of the games, but they're also super boring, and entirely antithetical to the whole "look like a badass" focus. I could go through DmC trying to Trinity Smash everything, the same way I could go through DMC4 as Dante blasting everything with Pandora's gigantic laser. It decimates everything, but it's not really all that fun. Unless, well, someone wants to just blast their way through encounters, more power to 'em. But this is what I mean about the disingenuous side of the argument, it's putting a massive amount of weight on a fairly simple system, when what truly makes DMC games fun is the abilities we can do - that's why DMC2 is so widely panned, right? It feels clunky to fight in that game, and there isn't much variety at all. It stumbles well before we even get to how oddly guns behave in it. DmC though, is still really fun (at least to me >_>)

 

[berto]

Oh, I'm not arguing whether it's easier, I know it is. I was just pointing out the behavior of the Style meters, spurred from how people say "DmC is bad because you can spam Triangle and get an S-rank," and I was like "I...don't think that's true,"

Well, clearly that isn't true and you shouldn't go around giving attention to overblown statements and exaggerations like those.

Concerning oneself with the idea over the incentive to improve is just sorta...like...silly?

Is it? For people who like this genre it most definitely is something we care about. I might not be a combo vid player, nor do I care to ever be, but I most definitely try to do better in games like this and I'm 90% sure I'm not alone.

Of course, if it matters to you, you might not like it, but to say it's a massive indictment on the game seems a stretch.

This is something I care about only if I enjoy the game. I don't care to try to do better in DMC4. When one of the requirements to SSS the mission is to collect all hidden orbs I refuse to even try. DMC3 might have the same requirement but it does the whole thing overall better because it's not as intrusive or mechanical with the other requirements and it doesn't hurt that I don't find that game as dull and tedious as waiting for the bus while it's raining. Getting better and better scores every time, having the game not go easy on you, not sparing your feelings, demanding you get it right to earn that rank is what keeps me coming back and doing it better, learning. Bayonetta is weirdly outstanding in this department. The gap between Platinum and PP is huge. Platinum you can get with a bit of patience but Pure Platinum is unforgiving; you have to take no damage, to sustain your combo through and out and you have to do it fast, and that combo netter be varied because you won't get enough point just using the one combo. Complacency is not tolerated. DMC3 is rather similar in that regard but the brilliance of Bayonetta is that by making the P medal difficult but attainable you always have that feeling of 'almost got it' and with it almost in reach they make the promise of PP very appealing, that all it takes is a little more effort. With DmC I don't even have try to get a playthrough with no damage, I just have to do well enough to get a perfect score.

I've mentioned before that over the years I've found a new appreciation for DmC. That a lot of the things I hated about that game I've begun to understand the whys and reasons behind the direction that they took some of the aspects of the game, so while I don't care for the overly generous scores, I understand why they did it. While I would take the rigid and demanding scoreboard it doesn't help the series. It's univating. People get discouraged when the game tells them they suck so interest dwindles and it's harder for the series to stay afloat, relevant. Personally, I think those people are a bunch of frail and whinny b*****s and if they don't like the ranking system they should ignore it, but that's how it is.

When people say "it's easy to get an S-rank," what do they mean, is it the ease of enemies broadcasting their attacks more, or that they attack less frequently, or is it actually in the fundamental process of building up Style through aggressive and varied attacks?

It means just that. That it's easier. The reason being that the game has moves that let you jump all the way up to S, like the Trinity Smash on D-Dodge or the hurricane thing, and while the other games have those, these are far easier to pull off, specially Aquila's hurricane. Once you have your S rank you're pretty set, it will only after you take damage. So it's a matter of there being more exploits and that those are easier to exploit in this game, specially with DT and outside of HC mode.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well, clearly that isn't true and you shouldn't go around giving attention to overblown statements and exaggerations like those.

Pardon, but I saw that statement ever since DmC's release, twice in the same few days as when I made that video. People say it because people believe it or want others to believe it.

Is it? For people who like this genre it most definitely is something we care about. I might not be a combo vid player, nor do I care to ever be, but I most definitely try to do better in games like this and I'm 90% sure I'm not alone.

Sure, sure, you want to improve; but do you need a rudimentary combo meter to do that? For it to give you a gold star? The Style meter won't really tell you something that you can't figure out for yourself - don't get hit; be aggressive; use a variety of moves. All it is doing is incentivizing that gameplay concept so it can hand you more orbs.

Getting better at a game like this is something you just feel: less damage taken, less time spent in certain encounters; less options afforded to enemies; and in DMC you'll net higher Style grades as a byproduct. There are so many other games out there that don't have combat ranking systems beyond a hit counter, but people still strive to improve in them. Hell, it doesn't even have to be an action game; I've striven to improve in RPGs all the same. I don't believe for a second that the Style rank is the be all, end all of what makes a DMC game great, let alone what makes DmC not so. It's a fun mechanic, to be sure, but it seems entirely disingenuous to indict a game because the behavior of its combo meter is more lenient or more generous.

if they don't like the ranking system they should ignore it, but that's how it is.

I think a decent takeaway from this is not that I'm saying that Style meters are The Problem, but that too much stock is put into it. I feel like getting consistent S-ranks in combat is more of mid-level play, it's average, something that everyone will be able to attain with applicable effort. Like, getting an S-rank is the game saying "Yeah, you got it, now you're thinking with Portals." The Style meters are not something to be discouraged over, but they also aren't something to be overly encouraged to abide by, either. It's just a thing for giving rewards, as mundane as that is, meaning a low-skill player shouldn't be too stressed over, because it just gives more mannies in the end; and a high-skill player shouldn't get too big for their britches over having a lot of S-ranks, because all it does is give you more phat coin. The world won't end if you don't get an S-rank, and Dad's not coming back if you get an S-rank, champ.

Your philosophy of "if they don't like it, they should ignore it" is spot on. I simply feel it goes both ways.

It means just that. That it's easier. The reason being that the game has moves that let you jump all the way up to S, like the Trinity Smash on D-Dodge or the hurricane thing, and while the other games have those, these are far easier to pull off, specially Aquila's hurricane. Once you have your S rank you're pretty set, it will only after you take damage. So it's a matter of there being more exploits and that those are easier to exploit in this game, specially with DT and outside of HC mode.

To be clear though, DmC's style rank does deplete from inactivity, so you aren't exactly sitting pretty if you can avoid getting hit. Vanilla DmC retained your rank like DMC4, but Definitive Edition changed that at base, before the use of Hardcore Mode - which I think is a pretty solid way to go about making the game more accessible, while still offering a challenge to the more sadistic crowd.

Regarding what makes things easier, is it then your idea that the risk and reward balance on certain moves is off? Because I also feel that, to an extent, there still is a lot of risk to those moves, given how they leave you open, and in Aquila's case, your being rewarded for pulling in multiple enemies at once. The other games would also reward you for hitting multiple enemies at once, but I suppose DmC is the one that actively makes weapons that are decent at doing that, rather than it sometimes being serendipity in the classics.

 

[berto]

The Style meter won't really tell you something that you can't figure out for yourself - don't get hit; be aggressive; use a variety of moves

You would think so but that's not the case. Your average normy will just slam on that one attack button and never bother even try the pause combos. People will complain that they didn't get a good score when they clearly sucked, demand to know why and occasionally nag about how the parameters for a good score are stupid or pointless. I've actually seen people take a stupid position, like 'I did really well' when they were so obviously awful, and put more intelligence into their argument as to why they rocked that stage than to honestly analyze their performance.

Anyway, these aren't random trivial criteria they're using to score you (Except in DMC4's orb count and DmC's percent of secrets found), they are guides to push a player in the right direction, rewards for exploration, experimentation and improvement because, even if this isn't your first time playing a game like these, not everyone starts from the top. It's hard for those of us who actually have muscle memory of these games ingrained into our hands to remember but most people start out playing really badly, using the one combo, spamming stinger, overusing whatever does the most damage, panicking and forgetting everything they practiced. It's like learning a musical instrument. Once you know how to play a string instrument others of its kind come far more easily to you, sure, but at first you were a fumbling mess. If those people get in to the game they will want to become better and the style meter is one of the things that will guide them. Once someone gets to a certain point they will do as they will rather than what the game tells them to but first they need to know how the game works and what it has to offer.

Vanilla DmC retained your rank like DMC4

That's right, DMC4 did. I'd completely forgotten.

 

[Goldsickle]

I would like Style meters or anything similar to accommodate situations where the boss suddenly disappears or removed from the arena long enough for the style to go down on its own.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

You would think so but that's not the case. Your average normy will just slam on that one attack button and never bother even try the pause combos. People will complain that they didn't get a good score when they clearly sucked, demand to know why and occasionally nag about how the parameters for a good score are stupid or pointless. I've actually seen people take a stupid position, like 'I did really well' when they were so obviously awful, and put more intelligence into their argument as to why they rocked that stage than to honestly analyze their performance.

I dunno man, that seems more like a level of ignorance applied to not exploring all your capabilities, and not necessarily that the Style meter is going to tell you that pause combos exist. It will only penalize you for a lack of variety. I wouldn't say that's a normal person, that's a very newby thing, like...almost so newbish that they might be new to the entire genre, or games entirely. At that point, all the Style meter will do is imply that they're missing something.

Anyway, these aren't random trivial criteria they're using to score you (Except in DMC4's orb count and DmC's percent of secrets found), they are guides to push a player in the right direction, rewards for exploration, experimentation and improvement because, even if this isn't your first time playing a game like these, not everyone starts from the top. It's hard for those of us who actually have muscle memory of these games ingrained into our hands to remember but most people start out playing really badly, using the one combo, spamming stinger, overusing whatever does the most damage, panicking and forgetting everything they practiced. It's like learning a musical instrument. Once you know how to play a string instrument others of its kind come far more easily to you, sure, but at first you were a fumbling mess. If those people get in to the game they will want to become better and the style meter is one of the things that will guide them. Once someone gets to a certain point they will do as they will rather than what the game tells them to but first they need to know how the game works and what it has to offer.

And that's true, but like I said above, it's only the tool to help you reach average skill. Once you understand that the Style meter demands variety in your attacks as well, it opens up an entirely new level of fundamentals in DMC, ie switching weapons and unloading tons of different attacks with your entire loadout. In the end though, getting an S-rank isn't a necessity, just having fun is. It can be a part of your fun, but it doesn't have to be everyone's who ever plays.

I would like Style meters or anything similar to accommodate situations where the boss suddenly disappears or removed from the arena long enough for the style to go down on its own.

Well DMC4 and vanilla DmC would retain your rank for you, you just had to build the meter up from that base. Is that alright? I do sorta agree, it's sorta crappy that it's literally through no fault of your own, too. Beating on them until they enter a transition phase ends up feeling like a penalty, even though you were doin' the thing you needed to do to even get them to that phase.

As someone who plays machinist in FFXIV, I absolutely hate transition phases borking up a major element of gameplay. For reference, machinists have a skill where you throw a bomb on the target that explodes after ten seconds. A portion of all the damage you inflict while the bomb is ticking down will add to the bomb's power when it explodes - but if the boss decides to just run off or go invincible for a transition phase when the bomb explodes, all that effort is just gone, aaaall that damage you prepped to do, wasted =_=