DmC/3/4 Style Meter Behavior

[TWOxACROSS]

Hey I got bored today! I had recently seen some people say that DmC was bad because you could spam the same move and get an S-rank in fights, but thaaaaat's super wrong. Then, as I was playing around to confirm I wasn't crazy, I just started thinking about the granularity of the other current incarnations of the Style meter. I also messed around in ShareFactory, which was...sorta fun, so excuse the dumb transitions.

So what'd I find?

DmC Style Behavior
I will readily admit that DmC's meter is more lenient in that it doesn't seem to decay as fast in comparison to DMC3's, and it seems to rank up fairly quickly. A big thing about the breakdown the game gives you, is that it hands out style points like candy on Halloween, because there's a bunch of other stuff it counts, more than just the normal actions, eg quick kills, environmental kills, juggle kills, flawless kills etc. It looks like DMC5 will even be tallying more than the classics used to, as well.

Yet, despite getting a lot of points for things that balloon the mission rank in the end, the Style meter itself still behaves much like it did in classic DMCs: each hit you take reduces your rank by two, and the very key factor that only two repetitions of an attack will keep the Style meter from decaying, after that, it doesn't retain your rank, nor increase it.

Here's a test (start of the video), done on Normal Mode, with no Hardcore, starting a brand new file for the first mission with the very first enemies in the game. Two repetitions of Hacker (Rebellion Combo A), got me to about the middle of C-rank, and then it just stopped helping - I dropped down to D, and then nothing pretty quickly. About the only thing that offers a bump is killing an enemy, since kills are counted as a separate style parameter.

To really drive home the fact that spamming the same attack won't get you an S-rank, turn on Must Style mode. It doesn't alter anything in the game other than enemies being invincible below S-rank. Unless you start cheesing the enemies with environmental kills, you'd never get past the first encounter spamming the same attack. Doing Bloody Palace on Must Style, only spamming (@1:03), was...not fun, and fruitless.

Even if it's to say spamming will get you an S on the mission rank, that's entirely predicated on the fact that the Style meter multiplies the points you get, so if you never reach a high style score in combat through spamming the same attack (spoilers: you won't), you won't have a massive value to tally at the end of the mission. Getting through the whole first level spamming Triangle was grueling, and the only time I saw anything above C-rank was when I accidentally knocked enemies into the gears in that hallway, but that didn't last long. I got a D on all of the paramters - Style Points, Time, and Item Completion. At least, with the first two it's important, and I ended up with a D for the overall mission rank.

With DmC's Hardcore Mode activated, you can't even get halfway through a D-rank with a single rep, similar to DMC4 Dante (see below).

I was also just really wondering about how DmC's Style decay compares to DMC3 and DMC4, so I mucked about in Bloody Palace on each...

DmC's Style meter decays a full letter grade in roughly 5.5 seconds, and it would completely decay from inactivity, dropping to base even when the style meter is out of sight. Any more than two reps of a single attack will no longer build or help retain your Style rank. On Hardcore, the Style rank decays a full rank in roughly 4.5 seconds!

DMC3 Style Behavior
DMC3's decays a full letter grade in roughly 6.5 seconds, and just like DmC's it would completely decay from inactivity and quite quickly. Curiously whenever you achieve a higher rank, the meter always starts in the middle, and when you reach the S-ranks, the decay rate increases. It seems a lot more strict when it comes to repetition as well, not even allowing for a single rep before decaying.

...now for something I found kinda interesting...

DMC4 Style Behavior
DMC4's decays a full letter grade in roughly 12 seconds, which is the absolute slowest of the three, nearly double what DmC's supposedly "lenient" meter does. Curiously, no matter the amount of time you delay doing anything as well, it never drops below the grade you have (@3:10), and you simply have to build from that grade's base.

Another interesting bit is while I was testing DMC4 in Bloody Palace as Nero, I also spammed Triangle the entire time. The really strange thing is that as I kept spamming it, I slowly kept climbing to higher ranks. It seemed like after so many repetitions, it would just start counting them again. If I had an infinite supply of enemies, it seems like, given the behavior it displayed, I could achieve an S-rank just by spamming the same attack, though it'd take a little bit. It's hard not to find that funny, given the criticism leveled at DmC's style meter. Vergil was similar to Nero in that the reps would reset and he could still slowly increase his rank through spam. Dante, on the other hand, could not seem to even reach a C by spamming Triangle. This of course, is probably due to the massive number of moves Dante has compared to others, but still, it's a very strange observation.

FINAL THOUGHTS
In all honesty, DMC4's Style meter is the most lenient given its decay time, rank retention from inactivity, and, in some characters' cases, even allowing one to achieve higher ranks by spamming the same attack. That is mind-boggling! DMC3's is still the most strict and perhaps the most balanced, but DmC's Style meter? Not the worst of the ones compared. At all. It has a problem in handing out lots of points for damn-near everything you do, and it is a little easier to build style given how it seems to take damage output into account, but other than that, it's pretty strict. The Hardcore Mode even seems to make it on par with DMC3 in terms of decay, reps, and retention.

In the end though, you cannot simply spam Triangle to get an S-rank in DmC, in no way, shape, or form. You can not like the game because of it's story, characters, or aesthetic, but like...don't lie about mechanics to make it sound worse than it is.

Side note: Must Style mode was helpful in testing DmC's Style meter, and I really hope DMC5 has the mode too, it was a fantastic addition.

(and yes, I blurped this out on reddit too)

EDIT: I also hopped onto the vanilla DmC on PS3, and the only difference was that, like DMC4, your style rank would be retained regardless of inactivity (they got rid of that retention in DE). However, you still could not spam attacks to reach S-rank, as two reps was all you got before there was no meter built.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

That's pretty interesting to hear.

The only thing I remember about DMC3, is that you can S rank Vergil purely by mashing Square and Triangle.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Definitely the most interesting thing I came across was how lenient DMC4's was in a lot of ways, to the point that some of people's complaints about DmC's system were literally just lifted *from* the previous entry in the series. Sure it gives you a crap-ton of points if you even sneeze next to a demon, but the retention and decay rates are definitely something DMC4 should be ripped on for, too, given that's where they came from. Even complaints of DmC's tracking damage more heavily is a bit overblown when heavy hits require a proportionate risk, hence the higher style output.

In the end, though, it's all a dumb reward boosting system, and it's always been easy enough to game, it's not necessarily a measure of skill, just adhering to the parameters it cares about - don't get hit, don't dawdle, use variety. I appreciate DmC (and DMC5) for wanting to take note of other actions we take, because those are important too. Of course, DMC5's will probably be balanced better, who knows?

 

[BrawlMan]

Very good. I noticed how the styles works differently when playing all three back-to-back. I still say that DMC2 has the worst style system.

Also, I am not sure if you know of this, but the Defenitive Edition has input burffering. Doing so raises your style meter really high, even on Hardcore mode. I.E, you go into stinger --> trillion stab, then hold R2/RT and Dante will end up doing the damage of a demon weapon w/o having to switch. You can't stun a weapon aligned demon, but you will still deal the damage. Add the buffer from demon evade and it's the equivalent 4x's the damage.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Very good. I noticed how the styles works differently when playing all three back-to-back. I still say that DMC2 has the worst style system.

Yeah, you can't really...do anything with it. You just need to be overly aggressive and not get hit, but then a lot of your moves don't quite flow well enough to keep it going a lot of the time. Well...unless you use guns.

Also, I am not sure if you know of this, but the Defenitive Edition has input burffering. Doing so raises your style meter really high, even on Hardcore mode. I.E, you go into stinger --> trillion stab, then hold R2/RT and Dante will end up doing the damage of a demon weapon w/o having to switch. You can't stun a weapon aligned demon, but you will still deal the damage. Add the buffer from demon evade and it's the equivalent 4x's the damage.

That is a very interesting little trick. Reminds me a bit of the weirdness that is distortion - you use a little precise timing and you get something crazy out of it.

 

[Innsmouth]

Most complaints coming from before they patched everything and anyhting, because before it, this was the case, when I picked game before whole patches thing.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

Most complaints coming from before they patched everything and anyhting, because before it, this was the case, when I picked game before whole patches thing.

I have no idea why anyone complained over that. Pre-nerf DmC was great... :/

 

[BrawlMan]

I have no idea why anyone complained over that. Pre-nerf DmC was great... :/

Because the game gave SSS like candy. Also, Demon Dodge + Devil Trigger turned bosses in to a joke. It's pretty much why I did not bother with the original iteration. The lack of a lock-on was a deal breaker for me.

>

Oh wait... that was sarcasm; never mind, my bad.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

Because the game gave SSS like candy. Also, Demon Dodge + Devil Trigger turned bosses in to a joke. It's pretty much why I did not bother with the original iteration. The lack of a lock-on was a deal breaker for me.

>

Oh wait... that was sarcasm; never mind, my bad.

Every DMC has it's lenient moments. DMC3 and DMC4 gave you SSS's like candy as well.

The only thing I think it should have been more strict on was it's mission ranking.

 

[BrawlMan]

Every DMC has it's lenient moments. DMC3 and DMC4 gave you SSS's like candy as well.

The only thing I think it should have been more strict on was it's mission ranking.

True (Real Impact exploits and Nero's buster moves), but not to DmC's extent. The DE version while still a little linient, is much more in line with 3 & 4's scoring system; especially with Hardcore mode.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

True (Real Impact exploits and Nero's buster moves), but not to DmC's extent. The DE version while still a little linient, is much more in line with 3 & 4's scoring system; especially with Hardcore mode.

Hardcore was such a great idea. Instead of nerfing demon dodge, I wish they introduced Hardcore with those tweaks on top of what it changed.

 

[Innsmouth]

I have no idea why anyone complained over that. Pre-nerf DmC was great... :/

I dunno what was so great about it. I don't see any fun in fact that you can spam simple combo to get SSS rank in every level. Especially since ranking system was aligned with combo points and you can have died couple of time, don't get any items, be ultra slow and still get SSS

 

[DarkSlayer54]

I dunno what was so great about it. I don't see any fun in fact that you can spam simple combo to get SSS rank in every level. Especially since ranking system was aligned with combo points and you can have died couple of time, don't get any items, be ultra slow and still get SSS

Demon dodge increased your damage output by a good amount, and it was satisfying to earn a SSS with it.

It was a lot of fun to figure out the shortest possible combo to kill enemies, and they ruined that with the DD nerf. For a little bit it felt like it was taking a step closer to DMC1, but nope...

 

[Innsmouth]

Demon dodge increased your damage output by a good amount, and it was satisfying to earn a SSS with it.

It was a lot of fun to figure out the shortest possible combo to kill enemies, and they ruined that with the DD nerf. For a little bit it felt like it was taking a step closer to DMC1, but nope...

In DMC1 it was never so ease to kill enemies. If anything you had to really check which weapon you used against different enemies. I have played only original DmC build and I think enemies were faaaaar to easy to kill with Demon Dodge.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

In DMC1 it was never so ease to kill enemies. If anything you had to really check which weapon you used against different enemies. I have played only original DmC build and I think enemies were faaaaar to easy to kill with Demon Dodge.

Enemies in DMC1 were a piece of cake, much easier than DmC. Even on DMD the enemies were easy. The hardest missions in DmC were due to how difficult the enemies were to fight. In DMC1 the opposite was true - it was a walk in the park until I hit a boss, where I would die dozens upon dozens of times.

The difference is that DMC1 spread out the weaknesses among the different weapons / moves in the game... Even so, being a single step closer to that was great to see. I wanted them to go further in that direction, if anything.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

In DMC1 it was never so ease to kill enemies. If anything you had to really check which weapon you used against different enemies. I have played only original DmC build and I think enemies were faaaaar to easy to kill with Demon Dodge.

Congrats, you used an ability that requires more skill to use, and you were rewarded for it. If you're then complaining about how it didn't take much skill to use, then...well...*jerk off motion*

And Darkslayer is right. Enemies in DMC1 even had unique instant kill "exploits" baked in to how you could tackle them, well beyond just using their weakness on them. You could one-shot Sin Scissors by parrying their attack and then stepping to the side slightly to shoot them in the face; Shadows could be killed instantly by jumping on their thrusted spike and slashing the core. Even Phantom has an exploitable instant kill in one of his encounters - it almost seems like they want you to do that given the cutscene of his death fits directly into the instant kill.

I can understand DmC's DD mechanic working to a similar effect, although not as unique as DMC1's case, but even then different enemies react differently to various weapons, so being able to transfer the DD boost to whatever will work best in any given situation is cool too. Sure would like those DMC1 instant kills to come back for DMC5. Last we had was Bianco Angelo's concerted energy ball deflection, I guess.

Anyway, I'm not contesting that DmC gives out style points like candy - it totally does, there are so many more facets to the things it's even taking into consideration now, from kill streaks to environmental involvement and more. What got me started in this whole little thing was people saying "You can spam Triangle in DmC and get an S rank" and despite DmCE's alterations - it was still never true. Here's a jank-ass video of vanilla DmC 1.01 on PS3*, where spamming triangle still won't give me more than a mid-C rank. Even back when it had DMC4's rank-retention feature, it still followed the same behavior of not generating meter on repetition of a move past two uses. Then DE removed DMC4's rank-retention and just made it that much more strict. Then, of course, there's Hardcore Mode refining things even more.

*Note: the 1.01 patch made no changes to the Style system's behavior other than making S, SS, and SSS different thirds of the same rank (similar to DMC4), instead of ranks on their own.

Like, yes, DmC hands out points like candy, but even that video above of someone getting SSS is sorta disingenuous, given that you're doing some very specific things to achieve that. Getting the proper timing for a perfect dodge offers a commensurate reward in both style and damage. Ironically, you could achieve that same rank in possibly less time by just actively styling on the enemies as normal, but no, if you choose to bide your time and play defensively for that Demon Dodge boost, you get an equivalent return. Isn't that the same as choosing to use Swordmaster instead of Royal Guard, or vice versa?

And yeah, DmC was easier, whatever, who cares, this isn't a contest. Nobody cares if you can get an S-rank or not, it's not going to make you a better person, it's all still a reward booster for not playing like a simp. Complaining about DmC's style system being "too generous" is such a silly, disingenuous argument.

 

[Innsmouth]

Congrats, you used an ability that requires more skill to use,
.

what skill? Simple dodge and mash same button three times? SOOOOOOO much skill.

Complaining about DmC's style system being "too generous" is such a silly, disingenuous argument.

If you don't want to hear anything about stlye meter being "to generous", don't make trhead about it. Problem solved.

Enemies in DMC1 were a piece of cake, much easier than DmC. Even on DMD the enemies were easy. The hardest missions in DmC were due to how difficult the enemies were to fight. In DMC1 the opposite was true - it was a walk in the park until I hit a boss, where I would die dozens upon dozens of times.

In DmC there wasn't single hard enemy to fight. I think closest it came to "hard" were witches + drekavak and even than they were barely above average fight in DMC1/3/4

 

[TWOxACROSS]

what skill? Simple dodge and mash same button three times? SOOOOOOO much skill.

I refer you to the previously mentioned *jerk off motion*.

If you don't want to hear anything about stlye meter being "to generous", don't make trhead about it. Problem solved.

There's a grand irony here in that you didn't respond to how disingenuous the argument is, and instead told me to ignore people's complaints. The irony is that, despite that this thread was in response to others always bitching about it, and me wanting to really see the granularity between DmC's meter and the others held in high esteem, somehow I'm the one that has to ignore people bitching about a game I enjoy, when they are the weirdos that can't seem to ignore a game they don't like. But oh, I get it, everyone is free to **** on DmC because no one should like it, but if I like it, I'm supposed to just...sit in a ****ing corner and shut up?

Like seriously dude, if you hate this game so much, why the hell are you always getting up your own butt whenever it's brought up? And this ****?

what skill? Simple dodge and mash same button three times? SOOOOOOO much skill.

Who wants to hear this? Why are you even compelled to be such an asshole about it? I get it, you don't like DmC. It's unfortunate you don't, but there's a million other things you could be doing. Do something constructive with your ****ing time instead of constantly trying to tear down other people's enjoyment of something.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

In DmC there wasn't single hard enemy to fight. I think closest it came to "hard" were witches + drekavak and even than they were barely above average fight in DMC1/3/4

There were sections in DmC where I died over 40-50 times on DMD, more than any boss battle. In DMC1, I never died more than once on DMD outside of the boss battles.

I see the two games as complete opposites in that regard.

 

[Innsmouth]

There were sections in DmC where I died over 40-50 times on DMD, more than any boss battle. In DMC1, I never died more than once on DMD outside of the boss battles.

I see the two games as complete opposites in that regard.

I finished DmC in one week on all difficulties and haven't stucked on single part in game, so I can't confirm or deny it, due to personal experience.

But oh, I get it, everyone is free to **** on DmC because no one should like it, but if I like it, I'm supposed to just...sit in a ****ing corner and shut up?

Stop acting like a drama queen. Don't act as if I killed your dog, when I pointed out well known problem with style system in DmC, if we're on the topic of Style system in different games to begin with. Also pointing out problem isn't called "**** on something" anyway, so your blockade of text don't hold any merrit to begin with.

Who wants to hear this?

don't want to hear it? don't make a topics about it. I also don't want to hear your **** about style system or controls in DMC4 or DMC5. Yet I have to deal with it every time there is mention of it from you. If you want to offer criticism about stuff you don't like, be ready to hear it about stuff you like as well or don't start. It's not that hard to realise that it's not your tumblr blog and forum for people with different opinions. Especially since in this case I'm talking about specific problem, that exists, instead of *** about non existent stuff, like you try to make it look.