Debating thread

[King Avallach]

Here we will discuss important issues. We all get to share our views but conditions apply. P.E.A

Point, example, analyse: you can't just make a statement here. You have to give a form of evidence for the view and then say how it promotes your view on the topic.

All debates here will be floor debates (everyone can be involved).

The strict rule is:
No swearing, homophobic, sexist or other derogatory comments. This will result in me immediately contacting the admin.

Also please make sure you have some background knowledge on the subject and can put forth your argument in a clear and structured way.

The rest is common sense.

There will be a new subject each fortnight. The starting debate will be a religious debate.

Do you believe that God exists? What evidence do you have to support your argument? This type of debate always yields interesting results, which is why I picked it.

 

[Angel]

I'm just going to add here that anyone joining this debate needs to keep a civil tongue in their head - religious debates tend to turn into flame wars so please try to stick to Phantarch's rules.

 

[King Avallach]

I'm just going to add here that anyone joining this debate needs to keep a civil tongue in their head - religious debates tend to turn into flame wars so please try to stick to Phantarch's rules.

Yes, I thought I had emphasised that point enough but thanks anyway.

As I started the thread I may as well start the debate. Personally I do not believe god exists. I have two majorreasons and one minor reason to start with. Firstly outside of the Bible, Qu'ran or whatever sanctified book book applies to one's religion, there is very limited evidence.

Secondly it seems a bit suspicious that in the times mentioned, miracles were happening every other day but now there are no people being rose from the dead or any other type of miracle for that matter. Nearly everything can be explained on a scientific basis which often runs contrary to the words of many religions and those that can't are freakish misfortunes that can't really be counted as miracles.

On a third note, if there was a higher form of intelligence in the universe, do you seriously believe that it would visit here?

I have more points but I'll come to those as the debate progresses.

 

[Vauxchen]

The only religion that i might choose to follow is Buddhist because it follows a way of life, not a god. But i am a agnostic, and believe there is a god, but don't know which is right, as there is no firm truth leading to any. But i do respect everyone's opinion to religion and don't get into fights about them. But great idea about having this topic. Rep for you.

 

[King Avallach]

It's just as an introduction. I would ask you to explain why you think there's a God. Also this is just to see which way reason will throw the debate, anyway it's not intended to hurt anyone. Debating can be quite fun if it's on a big topic.

So can you explain why you believe there's a God?

 

[Vauxchen]

Because there is no proof that i believe in to prove that one exists.
But here is a question for people to put into their posts aswel
What does god look like?

 

[DemonSlayer6]

God does not look like anything. He is around the world, watching over us. Life, it is nothing but a mere test until the real end. The real end- judgment day. Where we all have to answer for our deeds. It may sound scary, but, we are all going to go through it anyway.
"You do get some arrogant people in this world, but they seem to be fooled with the bad part of everything. I may love to do the same, but, the purpose of life is just a mere test. Nothing more."
"Of course. It seems as if some people don't take life as to that option. They take it as their real freedom. Express it all you want... without making it better. But, instead, they express it in a manner of disobedience."
Those are the sentences I will never forget.

 

[Chrysander]

There is quite a lot of information about religion on this website, it's pretty informative and I think most of it makes sense:

http://www.godisimaginary.com

 

[Angel]

The Phantarch - interesting point regarding miracles you made there. Thing is, what does constitute a miracle these days? Modern medicine and advances in science have made what would previously be a miraculous event a simple case of popping some pills or having laser eye surgery. However, to presume miracles do not happen could be a little premature as we often judge things by whether it has been on the news lately or not; sure, in the Western world we have a way of explaining certain events away - go to somewhere where churches, synagogues, mosques, temples etc are reporting certain unexplainable events and you could very well see miracles there. It doesn't happen every time - it didn't happen all the time in the Bible either (I don't know about other relgions when it comes to miracles) - sometimes people would die. Sometimes people would not get better. Sometimes people didn't get their miracle cure - but to say something never happens just because it isn't all the time is like saying certain medications don't work because no one you know has survived as a result of taking those pills. Someone might have - you just haven't met them yet

On a personal level, I struggle to see the "coincidence" in certain events in my life. For example, I had a bill I could not pay for a very specific amount. I told no one and prayed about it - the next morning an envelope came through my door from an anonymous source with the exact money down to the last penny. Similar things have happened with food - boxes of food arriving when I have just looked in my fridge less than an hour earlier and said, "well God, I'm broke and got no food. What are you going to do about it?

I almost died recently and it just "happened" that the surgeon who rescued me was passing through the hospital, just happened to be the ONLY specialist for my rare condition and was the only person in the entire hospital to diagnose me just minutes before I was about to die. He is not affiliated with the hospital and was only there to attend a meeting - he came across my case, took over from the guy who wanted to take out my appendix, which wasn't the problem, and cured me. If he hadn't been there, I would not be here. I don't see that as coincidental at all but I can see how others would ^_^

 

[King Avallach]

The Phantarch - interesting point regarding miracles you made there. Thing is, what does constitute a miracle these days? Modern medicine and advances in science have made what would previously be a miraculous event a simple case of popping some pills or having laser eye surgery. However, to presume miracles do not happen could be a little premature as we often judge things by whether it has been on the news lately or not; sure, in the Western world we have a way of explaining certain events away - go to somewhere where churches, synagogues, mosques, temples etc are reporting certain unexplainable events and you could very well see miracles there. It doesn't happen every time - it didn't happen all the time in the Bible either (I don't know about other relgions when it comes to miracles) - sometimes people would die. Sometimes people would not get better. Sometimes people didn't get their miracle cure - but to say something never happens just because it isn't all the time is like saying certain medications don't work because no one you know has survived as a result of taking those pills. Someone might have - you just haven't met them yet

On a personal level, I struggle to see the "coincidence" in certain events in my life. For example, I had a bill I could not pay for a very specific amount. I told no one and prayed about it - the next morning an envelope came through my door from an anonymous source with the exact money down to the last penny. Similar things have happened with food - boxes of food arriving when I have just looked in my fridge less than an hour earlier and said, "well God, I'm broke and got no food. What are you going to do about it?

I almost died recently and it just "happened" that the surgeon who rescued me was passing through the hospital, just happened to be the ONLY specialist for my rare condition and was the only person in the entire hospital to diagnose me just minutes before I was about to die. He is not affiliated with the hospital and was only there to attend a meeting - he came across my case, took over from the guy who wanted to take out my appendix, which wasn't the problem, and cured me. If he hadn't been there, I would not be here. I don't see that as coincidental at all but I can see how others would ^_^

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff like that, I've read a lot of incidents like that in a Reader's Digest book I have called "Mysteries of the unexplained". The thing is, a miracle is something that defies the laws of science by definition. As strange as those things are they don't really fit into that category and neither, unfortunately, do your strange experiences, listed here , count either. They can be coincidental. Also, if you've read the Bible it says that Satan currently has possession over the earth and there will be no intervention from God on earth until Armageddon, which does sound pretty crap to me. By allowing the devil to rule is basically saying he's giving evil a chance (if the correct term is "He" ,from my limited knowledge of deities they don't really have much use for gender-specific organs, if you get my meaning). Also religions have a tendency to give women the short straw, so to speak, in marriage it's always the man who is head of the household, which strikes me as being rather unfair and I think that any basis of truth, if any that existed within the pages of whichever book applies to your religion has been lost amongst a mountain of rubbish.
I mean, if there's a basis of truth, there has to be proof, aside from the extremely vague prophecies that have been fulfilled. I mean often they are so ambiguous that they can't be disproved.

Do you see people walking on water unaided?
Do you see dead people coming back to life?
Do you see lepers being cured by a touch of the hand?

No?

I didn't think so.



For the next debate we will have judges.

So far our judges are Asia22292 and Arkham. I am hoping for 3, 5 or 7 judges so there will be no ties.

The judges need to look out for content and presentation. Not just one, if it's all presentation then it will be hollow and conversely if it's just content it will be a rant, not an argument.

Keep that in mind.

 

[SpArAda1127]

i'm gonna have to explain this...the reason you don't see miracles everyday is because it is the end...the events in the bible are being fulfilled,ppl you must watch yourselves, miracles can only be done by ppl that GOD chooses, your not just going to walk into a church and say"heal me now",it doesn't work like that,GOD will heal you when he want's to,in the past year GOD has healed about 10 pplk in our church, and altogether, for all i know he might of healed millions! i've recieved the baptism of the holy spirit over the summer, my cousins were in an accident, one had life threatening injuries and he went home less than a week later, he had a liver laceration and all his ribs on his left side were broken, now he's running around everywhere going to all his friends houses... he's been blessed, i tell him that everyday i see him...now today my god fathers newborn has been diagnosed with meningitis, now today i have to go visit him, but still don't tell me that they just got lucky because i know that my family has been blessed

 

[King Avallach]

Is there any hard evidence for this?

 

[Angel]

I think unless you experience a miracle for yourself, you won't believe in them. Why should you just because someone else says "such and such happened to me"? I wouldn't expect a single person to believe any experience I've had just like that - why should they take my word for it?

I cannot prove a thing because what has happened has happened - I have no concrete recorded proof because the results of what I asked for have been and gone. I have seen certain things with my own eyes whereby someone who is completely illiterate has been prayed for, picked up the Bible and in front of 6,000 other people at the same event as her started to read fluently. I have also been at a meeting at a church whereby someone was riddled with terminal cancer, was prayed for and then they came back a week later with their non-believing doctor to confirm that they had, indeed, been completely cured. My church pastor was at an event in South Africa whereby someone died during the meeting and after two solid days of praying for the man to come alive again, he did. Was I there? No. Do I believe it happened? Yes - but that's because I believe in a God of miracles and healing power. The person next to me in church heard the same testimony and decided it was a bunch of crap - fair enough.

It's not enough to just hear about miracles - in this day and age, people need to see it or why should they accept it's possible? I accept they happen because I've seen many - but to expect anyone else to believe what I have seen or experienced is a bit much because they were not there; they did not see/feel what I did.

That is why the subject of God is so difficult to debate properly - you either believe or you don't (or sit on the fence) and it is very difficult to prove either way. You can throw in personal experience, science, theories, prophecies - whatever. But the fact of the matter is no one can successfully debate for or against the existence of God. It's what faith is all about - believing in that which you cannot see to be true. It's about your own personal convictions and whether you hear the same arguments over and over again and suddenly decide for yourself that God does/does not exist.

 

[DemonSlayer6]

Oh, and about the healing leprosy with just a touch of a hand, is true. But, it has been a miracle(In my term, Mu'jizaat) and endowed on certain people of certain religion. A prophet (A.S) has been given the miraculous power of blowing life into clay birds, curing lepers, and also bringing the dead to life.

There is also a prophet (SAW), by the gesture of his finger, caused the moon to split into two. This mu'jizaat is known as Shaqqul Qamar- the splitting of the moon. All these miracles are done by the decree and will of god.
The proof? It has been mentioned in the holy book of deeds.

 

[King Avallach]

Thank you for your contributions.

The holy book of deeds, eh. I shall look into that. In the mean time I think it's worth mentioning that the idea God can still be considered a post-hoc fallacy on the account that even the most amazing of situations have very simple explanations. Take, for example the trick of walking on hot coals. The principle is very simple, all you have to do is walk briskly amongst the coals because, even as hot as they are they are only mediocre conductors of heat, as with the sword swallowing technique, which is also very simple, you have to throw your head right back and make sure your body is completely aligned and the sword can only (IN TOTAL) be able to reach to your stomach but not further.
Again there's a logical explanation for the supposed curing the dead. They may just be suffering with pneumonia a condition which yield no signs of life but is completely curable.

 

[DemonSlayer6]

Well, when I meant the Holy book of deeds, I meant the Holy Quraan.

 

[King Avallach]

For evidence I specifically said evidence outside the religious texts. Just because it says in 'The lord of the Rings" that Frodo Baggins took the one ring to Mordor, it doesn't mean he did in real life. Do you get my meaning?

Sorry to seem so cynical but discussion is the whole point of the debate.

 

[SpArAda1127]

well still...go to church one day(pentecostal,if possible) and sit there and watch everything play out, then tell me if GOD is real or not, and not to be mean or anything but don't go to a catholic church, i've never been to one but i don't think GOD's victory and glory and power will descend there...

 

[DemonSlayer6]

Why don't you think so? Aren't you supposed to belive that, since you are a Christian, after all.

 

[Angel]

It gets a bit confusing when it comes to Christianity and all the billion denominations there seems to be :lol:

True Christianity is non-denominational - it's about a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Just because you are catholic, protestant, baptist, lutheran, episcopalian or whatever else is out there it doesn't mean you are a Christian. It just means you belong to a particular variation of the religion, not necessarily a participator of the faith itself. Anyone can go to church each Sunday, say some prayers, wear a cross around their neck, read the Bible and preach the Gospel - it does not make them a Christian. To become a Christian is a choice, it cannot be made for you by anyone else - I've been to mosques, but I'm not Muslim. I've attended Hindu temples but I am not a Hindu. Similarly, belonging to a denomination does not make you Christian.

God can turn up anywhere - catholic church, protestant church, middle of a field, when you're having a bath - He's not fussy about where. He's not interested so much in the geography, liturgy, whether you have a rosary, whether you confessed enough to a priest in the next box - His interest is in people. I've met catholics who are more passionate about God than others claiming to be pentecostal - no one has the monopoly on His power as He'll turn up wherever the need is. The problem with religion is it's full of rules and laws - the freedom comes in the faith, not the following of rules to the letter. Many denominations focus on getting it right when faith calls for you to step out on a limb at the risk of being called a fool and seeing what happens when you do - in essence, Catholicism focusses largely on rules and regulations (this is a broad assessment) and less on the power of God and forging a close relationship with Him which leads many to believe that all Catholics regard God as just the guy who comes down on you like a ton of bricks if you don't do as you are told.

(by the way, this was not part of the debate about God's existence - just a clarification thing)