Connection with Bayonetta

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Chancey289 said:
Cross referencing Easter eggs doesn't mean it exist in the same universe as Devil May Cry.

Bayonetta makes a ton of references from movies to video games. Sonic the Hedgehog, Viewtiful Joe, Okami, hell, there's even an easter egg from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

If you're gonna count one little cross referencing Easter egg as "proof" of Dante's existence in Bayonetta's world then you can't ignore the others. If you do then just accept it for what it is. A cross referencing easter egg and nothing more. It's just because Kamiya worked on both. It's common for people to reference their own work in other projects.
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Okay, let's follow your advice and follow every easter egg as far as it can go. Rodin is called the eggman -- is he white? Does he have a crazy ginger moustache? Is he fat, into robotics, or even remotely interested in catching things that gotta go fast? Ezio makes fun of Rodin's baldness by making egg jokes about his head, and after that the reference falls apart as anything but a rude nickname.

- a character named eva is involved with "a legendary dark knight" as he saves earth from an invasion from hell

- Ezio Ferino is the name of dante's informant who points him to juicy demon slaying gigs; he has the same first and last name, occupation, physical description, and personality in both universes, and in bayonetta he repeatedly references his numerous other clients.

- Bayonetta summons not one, but three significant demons from the DMC universe. All 3 (Gigapede, Phantom, and Bael) appear phyiscally identical to their DMC counterparts, and two of them even have the same name.

- Dante was once a mercinary who adopted the name "Tony Redgrave" out of respect for "Antonio Redgrave", someone he knew personally. Antonio Redgrave is Luka's father.

The eggman joke is only a nickname, and immediately falls apart as anything more than a coincidental nickname the moment you look at it. All the DMC references are matching names, descriptions, sequences of events, and entire histories, all unusually specific, and none of them conflicting with established DMC lore at any point ever.

Not even remotely the same.
 
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TWOxACROSS said:
At most it's "Kamiya canon" as I like to call it; DMC1, the DMC1 novel, and then also Bayonetta.

A thing to remember is that Kamiya never really thinks of any other Dante than the very first one in the very first game and the novel, which he had a hand in creating with the writer.
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this is true. Since capcom owns dante (all version including kamiya's) he is literally unable to make any sort of crossover officially canon, so at best we can just look at the hints scattered around and just assume this was his way of passing notes in class while douchy professor capcom had his back the other way
 
Reminds me about Xenosaga / Xenogears connection, though I don't really understand why Kamiya inserted Bael/Gigapede since they are from DMC3/4
 
I think he just liked them as boss fights/creatures.

Well if there is an actual crossover between the two, that would be ideal since you could build on those connections in a more upfront way rather than a cloak and dagger way they would have to use if either set of writers wanted to build on these connections themselves.
 
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TWOxACROSS said:
At most it's "Kamiya canon" as I like to call it; DMC1, the DMC1 novel, and then also Bayonetta.

A thing to remember is that Kamiya never really thinks of any other Dante than the very first one in the very first game and the novel, which he had a hand in creating with the writer.
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This. Kamiya canon is the perfect term for it.

Although it wouldn't fit in with the rest of the series. And it's not like Viewtiful Joe was canon.
 
Innsmouth said:
Reminds me about Xenosaga / Xenogears connection, though I don't really understand why Kamiya inserted Bael/Gigapede since they are from DMC3/4
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the easy answer is since Bael and Gigapede are actually lower on the hierarchy than the typical demon bosses (there's only one cerberus and there's only one beowulf, but there's entire swarms of Baels and Gigapedes) bayonetta could summon any number of these without revealing if this game supposedly takes place before or after dante is seen brutally murdering these exact same demons
 
Kam said:
the easy answer is since Bael and Gigapede are actually lower on the hierarchy than the typical demon bosses (there's only one cerberus and there's only one beowulf, but there's entire swarms of Baels and Gigapedes) bayonetta could summon any number of these without revealing if this game supposedly takes place before or after dante is seen brutally murdering these exact same demons
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no I was rather talking that both are from Itsuno's game not Kamiya.
 
Innsmouth said:
no I was rather talking that both are from Itsuno's game not Kamiya.
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ah, that. Maybe he felt Itsuno deserved a little love after the DMC2 ordeal? The previous director basically finished 90% of the game and then gave it to Itsuno to salvage, but he couldn't, so instead Itsuno's name is forever tied to DMC2. I would need a little love if that happened to me...
 
Kam said:
ah, that. Maybe he felt Itsuno deserved a little love after the DMC2 ordeal? The previous director basically finished 90% of the game and then gave it to Itsuno to salvage, but he couldn't, so instead Itsuno's name is forever tied to DMC2. I would need a little love if that happened to me...
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lol true. Though it's funny that Kamiya claimed he never played DMC4 to the end xD
 
I agree with the "Kamnon vs Capcanon" argument. However, even within Kamnon, I have to agree that Enzo, Eva, Sparda, Phantom, Gigapede, and Antonio Redgrave are much more substantial than Eggman, or the same first names of some other game characters. I could very much see Eva as a blonde-clad witch with Sparda's DT while wielding Luce & Ombra (and perhaps the gold & silver guns... "Goldie & Silvia perhaps?) with the Bracelet of Time and maybe even the Perfect Amulet. (btw I would pay to get a HQ drawing of this exact concept)
 
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Hey, glad to see this thread is still active! I thought it was at least an interesting topic for discussion, since there hasn't been any DMC news lately.

I like the thought of unofficial canon or Kamiya canon. I guess it all depends on which you want to believe - the canon of the company who keeps making questionable decisions of the beloved series, or the canon of the guy who originally came up with it then later abandoned it. Neither is very appealing to me, tbh.

Think I'll just stick with my headcanon. XD *flies away*
 
Is this still a discussion? Whether or not they are in the same universe? They're not.

Here's the thing. If you look at the two games that Kamiya did, Bayonetta and Devil May Cry, they are not particularly similar in tone, in canon, or in what you might call the laws that govern that universe. Bayonetta is almost slapstick in its execution, there is a part where she can get squashed and turn flat and floats around like paper. Can you see that ever happening in DMC1, or even any of the other ones? Even 3 or 4? The tones in those games, as unserious as they are, are not that silly. They are simple references, they are no different than any game where the stage ends with someone saying 'you princes is in another castle.'
 
berto said:
Is this still a discussion? Whether or not they are in the same universe? They're not.

Here's the thing. If you look at the two games that Kamiya did, Bayonetta and Devil May Cry, they are not particularly similar in tone, in canon, or in what you might call the laws that govern that universe. Bayonetta is almost slapstick in its execution, there is a part where she can get squashed and turn flat and floats around like paper. Can you see that ever happening in DMC1, or even any of the other ones? Even 3 or 4? The tones in those games, as unserious as they are, are not that silly. They are simple references, they are no different than any game where the stage ends with someone saying 'you princes is in another castle.'
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So different "tones" means they can't be within the same universe? Trish can shoot lightning out of her hands, Dante gets stabbed with Alastor and it goes completely through him, hilt and all. Don't see how Bayo turning into paper would be far-fetched in that universe. Everything can be explained with a little magic.

I just think there are too many "references", as previous posters have shown, to be simply brushed off as an easter egg. In Kamiya's brain, I really do think they exist as one universe (maybe separate canons though)

I know not everyone is terribly fond of the idea, but I still think it'd be cool if it was true. =)
 
Zero said:
So different "tones" means they can't be within the same universe?
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Yes. You wouldn't argue that this Thor would exist in this movie just because there was a reference to him, would you?

Zero said:
Trish can shoot lightning out of her hands, Dante gets stabbed with Alastor and it goes completely through him, hilt and all.
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Yes, but none of those are silly. They are fantastic in the realm of our reality but they are not goofy. Even the goofiest parts of DMC can't compare to the silliest Bayonetta has to offer.

Zero said:
Don't see how Bayo turning into paper would be far-fetched in that universe. Everything can be explained with a little magic.
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Really? Can you show me anything in DMC1 that is as silly or as slapstick as this:

Yes, Dante even rides a rocket in 3 but as outlandish as that is it isn't slapstick.
Zero said:
I just think there are too many "references", as previous posters have shown, to be simply brushed off as an easter egg.
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There are references to Halo, RE2 & 4, Okami, Viewtiful Joe and other Sega and Capcom games. The idea that all video games take place in the same universe was tried in a cartoon show already and it didn't go over very well.


Zero said:
In Kamiya's brain, I really do think they exist as one universe (maybe separate canons though)
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Not likely. If that were the case the art style for all of his games would have a similar style of art and story.

Zero said:
I know not everyone is terribly fond of the idea, but I still think it'd be cool if it was true. =)
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Like it all you want but I'm sorry to say that it just isn't so. It be like arguing that Close Encounters of the Third kind and War of the Worlds are in the same universe because they are both Spielberg films. Just because Scary Movie 3 has Ring references doesn't mean they are somehow in the same world.


I do know how you feel, though. For a while I really grew into the idea of a crossover since there are more than just references to connect the 2 works. However, a crossover would mean one of the two would have to break the mold they've formed. Ether Bayonetta would have to become more series or Dante would have to get more cartoonish, and I mean Tom and Jerry cartoonish, not the cartoon he was in 4. That doesn't sit well with me, they are, for all their similarities, too different to work properly together. Like I said, that laws that govern their universes are not the same, and while at first it might seem like a good idea upon further inspection it just doesn't work out too well.
 
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Okay, while there is some use of artistic license here and there, but Bayonetta is in no way a parody. Kamiya has even stated seriously that Dante went by the name Tony Redgrave due to legitimate respect for Antonio Redgrave, Luka's father. The only thing that prevents this fact from being canon is Capcom, and they aren't exactly refuting it, so unless they care enough to refute Kamiya's impressions of the series and/or validate story elements of theit own, I'm siding with Kamiya.
 
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As for the "Eva wouldn't have died to demons, etc" argument, #1. Bayonetta 2 has been clarified to contain a plot concerning Bayonetta and Jeanne being attacked by demons, for one reason or another, so it's not like witches don't have to watch their backs for demons as well #2. Witches get their powers from demons they've made pacts with, it's not at all entirely implausible that when her contract was up, Sparda took mercy (and/or was already in love/married Eva) and due to the insubordination, Mundus intervened and started the whole war between Sparda & the forces of Inferno/the Underworld. Again, aware this is Canon that Kamiya generally supports, so there are some holes, but it's very plausible.
 
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I remember in Bayonetta it was claimed that witches that doesn't deliver angel souls to demons are enemies of demons, so it actually may explain that IF Eva was a witch she lost demon's support by the time.
 
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