Connection with Bayonetta

[Railazel]

I would like to make the note that while it is highly possible for the two to exist in the same universe, the histories between them are too different.

 

[Kam]

I would like to make the note that while it is highly possible for the two to exist in the same universe, the histories between them are too different.

In what way?

 

[Railazel]

In what way?

Mundus was the sole emperor of hell but, in Bayonetta, there is a queen of hell that is the only known ruler.

There isn't a purgatory in DMC since angels, demons, and humans exist in the same plane.

In DMC history, Sparda took on hell's army. Instead, in Bayonetta lore, Eva did but with his help.

The origin of the DMC universe is different than the origin of the Bayonetta universe.

And that's it I think.

 

[Kam]

Mundus was the sole emperor of hell but, in Bayonetta, there is a queen of hell that is the only known ruler.

There isn't a purgatory in DMC since angels, demons, and humans exist in the same plane.

In DMC history, Sparda took on hell's army. Instead, in Bayonetta lore, Eva did but with his help.

The origin of the DMC universe is different than the origin of the Bayonetta universe.

And that's it I think.

In DMC lore, mundus was the self proclaimed emperor of hell, and this is only until dante kills him. In the bayonetta lore, I find reference to several different rulers, but none that come close to the title of "only known ruler". There's madama butterfly, contract holder for all witches seeking power. There's madama styx, queen of said river. Malphas is the self appointed lord of all knowledge, Little king zero is king of the little devils, and queen sheba witnessed the birth of inferno but is otherwise never described as actually holding dominion over anything. That's not even counting the demons that don't make a physical appearance in the game, or demons in bayonetta 2. With already 4 major demons naming themselves ruler, I don't see how mundus declaring himself emperor is outside the norm.

In DMC, nobody enters purgatory and angels are never seen. In bayonetta, you have to be in purgatory in order to see angels. I don't see a contradiction here, nor do I see proof that purgatory does not exist.

In DMC lore, sparda is a part of mundus's army leading the attack on hell, but for an unknown reason betrays mundus and fights for humans. In Bayonetta lore, a "legendary dark knight" (sparda's title) fights inferno, and a witch named eva enters into some form of contract (never described) to help him.

The origin of the DMC universe starts somewhere after the creation of inferno, where inferno is a chaotic waste that eventually spills into the human world, leading to sparda's story. The origin of the bayonetta universe starts somewhere before the creation of inferno, and includes references to a great struggle that happened well before the witch hunts, but is not elaborated on.

For every major plot point in DMC, bayonetta's story seems to deliberately leave a gap in the story that could be filled with any number of things. I'm pretty sure the ambiguity was intentional on the part of the writers, because they wanted to stir up exactly this kind of debate. All we can say for certain is that the lore allows for the coexistence of the two universes, but never confirms it

 

[Railazel]

In DMC lore, mundus was the self proclaimed emperor of hell, and this is only until dante kills him. In the bayonetta lore, I find reference to several different rulers, but none that come close to the title of "only known ruler". There's madama butterfly, contract holder for all witches seeking power. There's madama styx, queen of said river. Malphas is the self appointed lord of all knowledge, Little king zero is king of the little devils, and queen sheba witnessed the birth of inferno but is otherwise never described as actually holding dominion over anything. That's not even counting the demons that don't make a physical appearance in the game, or demons in bayonetta 2. With already 4 major demons naming themselves ruler, I don't see how mundus declaring himself emperor is outside the norm.

DMC makes it a point that Mundus is the only ruler. For one, there's no mention of any other ruling demon and the game says that he rose up took control. Two, you're mistaking smaller authority for claims of overarching ruling. Queen Sheba is the Goddess and ruler of hell in Bayonetta (thus the reason why she is referred to as queen). She was formed at the same time Jubileus was and when Jubileus was given Paradiso, she was given Inferno. Unlike Jubileus who fell asleep, Sheba remained active.

In DMC, nobody enters purgatory and angels are never seen. In bayonetta, you have to be in purgatory in order to see angels. I don't see a contradiction here, nor do I see proof that purgatory does not exist.

You need Purgatory to see demons as well. Dante has never gone or needed to go into Purgatory to see the supernatural and with demons having killed humans before, there's enough to say that there is no realm that separates the two other than hell.

In DMC lore, sparda is a part of mundus's army leading the attack on hell, but for an unknown reason betrays mundus and fights for humans. In Bayonetta lore, a "legendary dark knight" (sparda's title) fights inferno, and a witch named eva enters into some form of contract (never described) to help him.

"Eva, a truly extraordinary witch, entered into contract with a legendary dark knight, and then faced the amassed armies of Inferno."

Again, it was Eva who fought the Demons, not Sparda.

The origin of the DMC universe starts somewhere after the creation of inferno, where inferno is a chaotic waste that eventually spills into the human world, leading to sparda's story. The origin of the bayonetta universe starts somewhere before the creation of inferno, and includes references to a great struggle that happened well before the witch hunts, but is not elaborated on.

Yes it is actually. The Trinities were created in the First Armageddon. After that, the two goddesses were given authority over the realms of light and dark. Two clans were created to oversee the light and dark, both being given an Eye of the World to keep things in balance.

In the DMC 3 manga, the demon world was the original world until light existed and created the human world. Heaven does not seem to exist.

For every major plot point in DMC, bayonetta's story seems to deliberately leave a gap in the story that could be filled with any number of things. I'm pretty sure the ambiguity was intentional on the part of the writers, because they wanted to stir up exactly this kind of debate. All we can say for certain is that the lore allows for the coexistence of the two universes, but never confirms it

While I understand that, the games are stark enough in some details to say they aren't in the same universe.

 

[TonyRedgraveDMC]

DMC makes it a point that Mundus is the only ruler. For one, there's no mention of any other ruling demon and the game says that he rose up took control. Two, you're mistaking smaller authority for claims of overarching ruling. Queen Sheba is the Goddess and ruler of hell in Bayonetta (thus the reason why she is referred to as queen). She was formed at the same time Jubileus was and when Jubileus was given Paradiso, she was given Inferno. Unlike Jubileus who fell asleep, Sheba remained active.



You need Purgatory to see demons as well. Dante has never gone or needed to go into Purgatory to see the supernatural and with demons having killed humans before, there's enough to say that there is no realm that separates the two other than hell.


"Eva, a truly extraordinary witch, entered into contract with a legendary dark knight, and then faced the amassed armies of Inferno."

Again, it was Eva who fought the Demons, not Sparda.



Yes it is actually. The Trinities were created in the First Armageddon. After that, the two goddesses were given authority over the realms of light and dark. Two clans were created to oversee the light and dark, both being given an Eye of the World to keep things in balance.

In the DMC 3 manga, the demon world was the original world until light existed and created the human world. Heaven does not seem to exist.



While I understand that, the games are stark enough in some details to say they aren't in the same universe.

You are incorrect on a few points. Jubileus was the god(dess?) of the Trinity, and the contract with Sparda can be interpreted as Sparda bestowing her with some of his power and he also accompanied her.

 

[Kam]

snip

Queen sheba is never described anywhere as being the ruler of hell, or actually the ruler of anything. If I had to guess, "queen" is an honorary title given to her for her witnessing the birth of hell, but there is no lore anywhere to support your claim that she actually rules anything. Similarly, nowhere in any of the DMC lore I know of is mundus ever described as "the only ruler of hell", only that he calls himself emperor and has many minions at his disposal.

Nowhere in the lore for either game does it say that demons are only visible from purgatory. But let's assume for the sake of your argument that you're actually right, can it still be explained?

Yes. Every demon in DMC is forced to manifest themselves in the human world through some physical medium that was already there. Sloths and wraths form sand to create bodies, other demons possess shadows, blood, bile, armor or even animals. You only ever see true demons when you are actually inside hell. It's entirely possible that demons don't interact with purgatory the same way angels do, which is why dante can be an effective demon slayer yet be ignorant of purgatory, and also why he never sees an angel.

"Eva, a truly extraordinary witch, entered into contract with a legendary dark knight, and then faced the amassed armies of Inferno." At this period, the entirety of hell was spilling into the human world; every human on the planet was fighting off demons. Are you saying that just because eva (a human witch) was fighting demons, there's no way sparda was also fighting demons? Once again, nowhere in DMC lore does it say that sparda fought hell alone. In fact, it seems to pretty heavily imply the exact opposite: that sparda fought hell with the backing of every human.

In DMC lore, the human world was described as a place that didn't always exist, and was formed from elsewhere. The DMC accounting of this event is that the human world was formed from a piece of hell itself. In Bayonetta, father balder confirms that the power to create a new human world is something the eyes of the world possess.

The trinities are created, the eyes of the world are used to create the human world, demons lay claim to the human world and say it was originally part of the demon world anyway. That was pretty easy.

TL;DR The bayonetta and DMC universes are both heavily based on The Inferno, which should actually be pretty obvious. Paradiso, purgatorio, inferno, and the human world caught up between the three? In DMC the main character 'Dante' is led by (chases) Vergil as he leads him through hell, they weren't exactly subtle about where they got their inspiration. The two universes are similar because they are both sourced from the same material, the only real difference is that DMC focuses heavily on inferno, ignoring paradiso and purgatorio, while bayonetta expands deeply on those two realms while being vague about inferno.

Looking at it from the perspective of the source material, it's extremely obvious that both stories were told to overlap as little as possible.

 

[TonyRedgraveDMC]

True, Sparda did make human allies in Fortuna as well as the Vie de Marli.