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1. If you want to see an example of how they change their translations for western audiences you can probably find the original DMC3 manga translation from Devil's Lair and compare it to the TokyoPop.
The two examples that I remember most clearly are when Arkham approaches Vergil in the book. There, Arkham tells him about the story of Sparda and Vergil responds something to the effect of 'leave me alone' while in the TokyoPop I think he says 'yeah, great story, can't wait for the movie.' The other is when rabbit tells Dante he wants to buy his amulet and will pay any price. Dante pretty much says 'no, thank you' and in the TokyoPop translation he says 'and I want a smaller d**k. I guess we're both ass out of luck.'



2. Yeah... Something I've complained about, repeatedly, is how the DMC canon is so jagged. What was an establish lore in one game gets tossed out as soon as it becomes inconvenient in the next game. I've also mentioned how the fans seem to have more attachment to the lore than the developers do since they throw everything and anything out on a whim. Because this is how they treat the canon nothing is concrete. Itsuno changed so much of DMC to align with DmC because he made friends with NT and he loved the work they did in that game, even if it made no sense or was never a part of the original canon.

1. I remember the "can't wait for the movie" quote - Not very Vergil. However, I don't remember the "smaller d-" quote. Although, tbf, that line is pretty Dante XD

2. Which proves to me that Capcom doesn't give a fig about the franchise, unless it makes them money (and - in my eyes - Itsuno is now proven to be the joke that I've always assumed him to be :ROFL:(y) ).
Even my DMC OC's universe has more consistent lore than this franchise.
 
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Itsuno is now proven to be the joke that I've always assumed him to be
I don't agree to that extent. I have my issues with Itsuno but he is the director of DMC3. He is not without a notable degree of merits. Do I like how the franchise has gone since we've entered the HD era? No. Do I like how the franchise, especially the smaller details, have been handled? No. My list of complaints is long but that shouldn't detract from his achievements, either. I don't love him the way most people who've love 4 & 5 do but, as of right now, I don't hate his work, either.

The question has more to do with how his absence will affect the show. Him and Morihashi oversaw the 07 show and I hated that thing. I'm hoping that without Morihashi we'll get a better go at this, too. I loved 3's story but 4 & 5 were not good, so I'm still on the fence for how Shankar will work with the material, seeing as this is his reinterpretation of events.
 
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@berto
I thought Kamiya suggested the prequel idea for 3 while Bingo wanted it to be an alternate universe. So I feel like Kamiya's take would've been as malleable as Itsuno's take if he stuck around.
 
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@berto
I thought Kamiya suggested the prequel idea for 3 while Bingo wanted it to be an alternate universe. So I feel like Kamiya's take would've been as malleable as Itsuno's take if he stuck around.
Well, yes, but it is still Bingo's name in the writing credit. I don't know the details, nor can I specify the extent as to who had the most input on the plot. It's especially hard when you see the contrast between games they've worked on.

Bayonetta's plot isn't bad, it's just presented in a very convoluted manner. Then again, Okami was wonderfully told. That's Kamiya's writing. Bayo 2's is better, very complimentary to 1's, and more cohesive which is something Morihashi worked on. Similarly, DMC3 has characters who show their emotions well, except for Dante who insists on wearing a mask of indifference. After 3, though, the only person who doesn't wear one of those is Nero. Everyone else acts none interested in things they should be because they're, I don't know, too cool to do so. Prime example is the reunion scene in 5 where people haven't seen each other for a month, their faiths are unknown to each other, and they just pass right by it. They're obviously glad to see each other but Lady just walks passed Dante, says something irrelevant, and he doesn't even look twice at her. Yeah, there are more sincere and emotional scenes in 4 and 5 but they're only the ones that involve Nero.

So, is it Morihashi who doesn't seem to know how to write human interactions or scenes with sincere emotion? Maybe. He's done it before and he did it in 5 but it's all so inconsistent. I've said it before, I don't want them to be melodramatic and overly sensitive, either, but there is a balance, even with cheese actions narratives, and they've really gone off the deep end of one side.
 
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Well, yes, but it is still Bingo's name in the writing credit. I don't know the details, nor can I specify the extent as to who had the most input on the plot. It's especially hard when you see the contrast between games they've worked on.

Bayonetta's plot isn't bad, it's just presented in a very convoluted manner. Then again, Okami was wonderfully told. That's Kamiya's writing. Bayo 2's is better, very complimentary to 1's, and more cohesive which is something Morihashi worked on. Similarly, DMC3 has characters who show their emotions well, except for Dante who insists on wearing a mask of indifference. After 3, though, the only person who doesn't wear one of those is Nero. Everyone else acts none interested in things they should be because they're, I don't know, too cool to do so. Prime example is the reunion scene in 5 where people haven't seen each other for a month, their faiths are unknown to each other, and they just pass right by it. They're obviously glad to see each other but Lady just walks passed Dante, says something irrelevant, and he doesn't even look twice at her. Yeah, there are more sincere and emotional scenes in 4 and 5 but they're only the ones that involve Nero.

So, is it Morihashi who doesn't seem to know how to know how to write human interactions or scenes with sincere emotion? Maybe. He's done it before and he did it in 5 but it's all so inconsistent. I've said it before, I don't want them to be melodramatic and overly sensitive, either, but there is a balance, even with cheese actions narratives, and they've really gone off the deep end of one side.
I disagree about Bayonetta as I didn't like the cast but I get your point.
 
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I love (sarcasm) the obsession with this franchise and alternate universes. I'm guessing the likes of Resident Evil, or Street Fighter doesn't go through this bs (which is a slightly genuine question, because I don't care for those franchises - Especially, Street Fighter).
 
I love (sarcasm) the obsession with this franchise and alternate universes. I'm guessing the likes of Resident Evil, or Street Fighter doesn't go through this bs (which is a slightly genuine question, because I don't care for those franchises - Especially, Street Fighter).
ehh.
they don't have alternate universes except RE's films and novels don't line up to the games. So it's not that different.
 
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There is no "Christianity" in DMC because there are no angels (or God, or Heaven) in general in DMC. And *that* is a direct quote from Itsuno. No angels exist, just other forms of demonic presence, and Holy Water has no connection to any religion we know of, it's just demon repellent.
Yes, there is Christianity in DMC. In episode 4 of the anime, there is a church; in episode 5, Dante mentions God; in the DMC3 manga, there are Christian and Jewish graves; in DMC1, there are crosses; in DMC5, there’s a woman praying. The thing is, people in that universe adapt what they see to their beliefs. It’s like in real life, where if there are two strange lights in the sky, they’re immediately considered UFOs (as Arkham explains in the manga).

In Fortuna, they follow the concept of angels from the Christian vision, because how many people would know that there’s no God in the DMC universe? We know that thanks to Itsuno, but if it weren’t for him, we’d probably believe there is one.

Yes, there are weird things like the crystallized wing in DMC4, or the fallen in DMC3, which is ambiguous. But well, we can just ignore that the first is an in-game object, because I don’t think it’s vital for Nero’s Devil Bringer to absorb a skull or a shield to use the abilities of the arm.
There are no angels in Itsuno's DMC but there is a Christ in Kamiya's. Capcom USA changed the passage in the booklet to say that Mundus was born 2000 years ago in a snowy day in hell but the original Japanese states that it was when the star shone above Bethlehem and specifically mentions Jesus. I'm assuming they changed this because they felt uncomfortable with the correlation and found it easier to just remove it.
That was from the Kaitai Shinsho, right? Or from the DMC3 manual? I don’t remember well, but I think it was written in some "forbidden books" that can only be read in those two products
 
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That was from the Kaitai Shinsho, right? Or from the DMC3 manual? I don’t remember well, but I think it was written in some "forbidden books" that can only be read in those two products
No, it's the booklet that came with DMC1.

In the US version says:
According to legend, 2000 years ago while snow was falling on a clear, freezing night on Earth, a fierce devil prince was born deep in the darkest pit of the netherworld.
This one says that it's from the Library of Forbidden Books.

While the Japanese version, and I'm doing a mix of multiple image translations sites here, says this:
While the star of salvation shined above Bethlehem, In the depths of the underworld, a ferocious demon arose.
This one says it's from the Vatican Library.

I can't for the life of me remember where the part they actually named Jesus is but I did check it. It was a Chinese translation and I remember I went and looked for the original Japanese and they matched. Now, I can't seem to find it. I remember it too vividly to be a miss remembrance.
 
There was a Protestant Church in the Anime with a cross outside. Though some don't believe the anime is canon. Itsuno made a mess of the DMC story so he isn't the most reliable source.

Yes, there is Christianity in DMC. In episode 4 of the anime, there is a church; in episode 5, Dante mentions God; in the DMC3 manga, there are Christian and Jewish graves; in DMC1, there are crosses; in DMC5, there’s a woman praying. The thing is, people in that universe adapt what they see to their beliefs. It’s like in real life, where if there are two strange lights in the sky, they’re immediately considered UFOs (as Arkham explains in the manga).

In Fortuna, they follow the concept of angels from the Christian vision, because how many people would know that there’s no God in the DMC universe? We know that thanks to Itsuno, but if it weren’t for him, we’d probably believe there is one.

Yes, there are weird things like the crystallized wing in DMC4, or the fallen in DMC3, which is ambiguous. But well, we can just ignore that the first is an in-game object, because I don’t think it’s vital for Nero’s Devil Bringer to absorb a skull or a shield to use the abilities of the arm.
Direct Itsuno quote. There is no heaven nor angels in DMC. It's just human world and demon world. Every instance in-universe of "religion" is an instance of humans misunderstanding their own world/seeking explanation for it as much as any religion does without evidence their own god(s) exist(s). Argue with a wall.

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Direct Itsuno quote. There is no heaven nor angels in DMC
That's the point we're trying to make here. There is no heaven in Itsuno's DMC (and even that's such an inconsistent thing you can't really take it all at face value), but there enough evidence to say that there is in Kamiya's. Problem is, DMC lacks so much cohesion it will never be clear what's what. Things that were facts in one game aren't in others and vice versa. If Itsuno was still at Capcom he could very likely change his stance on this and then change it again to a totally different stance on the next one after that.

That's a bad example on his part. Devilman has angels and God and heaven. It's brutally apocalyptic and biblical. The main villain is Satan. Not some guy named Satan, like in DragonBall, it is the devil. There are examples of this, though. I can't think of one off the top of my head. Even Megami Tensei has all of them. The point being, there are narratives in Asia where there is only the mortal realm and the underworld. Only humans and demons.

There are, however, more of the ones where there are heavens of some kind. They're not the Christian one, nor ones based on that. More in common with Buddhist or even Hindu ideas of divinity, so the ones where there's only Earth and hell are not the majority. I mean, they are common enough to the point where it's not rare, just not the majority when you start to think about it.

The most common one, I think, is the one where the realm of the Gods is not accessible to human souls, only the human and (either) the demon realm or the land of the dead or hell are places they can go. Inuyasha has this. Along with the Gods is another one. In either case, there are divine beings and a thing you could call Heaven or Nirvana.
 
That's the point we're trying to make here. There is no heaven in Itsuno's DMC (and even that's such an inconsistent thing you can't really take it all at face value), but there enough evidence to say that there is in Kamiya's.

That is the point you are trying to make. That's not what the conversation is actually about.

Warren Ellis added a lame worldbuilding "fact" to take away a religious element to vampires in a narcissistic attempt to make them more "serious" by grounding their weaknesses or condition in "science".

Xel says, "Imagine if Itsuno said [equally stupid thing]".

I say, "He has. [Insert an actual quote of his, a tremendously dumb worldbuilding "fact" that is as bad, if not worse, than vampires being scared of right angles.]"

Any quibbling between you all about how little sense that makes is not my problem. Again, argue with a wall. I know it's stupid; I actively ignore it myself. I also ignore the time Itsuno said all of the games prior to 4 (3, 1, and 2) took place in the 1980s just because he didn't want to worry about the characters having cellphones or laptops, because his quote directly contradicts Dante in DMC1 being a mercenary living in "modern America" (2001).

All I did was prove that Itsuno has said something as dumb as Ellis has.
 
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That is the point you are trying to make.

Really? So I misunderstood this:
There is no "Christianity" in DMC because there are no angels (or God, or Heaven) in general in DMC.
Yes, there is Christianity in DMC.

Just me, huh? Fine. My point stands.

Itsuno's DMC is not a concrete world where the rules, lore or story are absolute. They change on on whim. They're not even that important, it seems. There was also a time where things were retconned out of canon. Manga, comics, novels and so on. Now everything is canon. The order of the games used to be 3, 1, 4, and 2 at the end. Well, that was inconvenient so, not anymore. Just because it was the staple for, what, 10 years doesn't mean it was important. Now, is there a heaven and angels in DMC? Depends on the game. It really does.

DMC1 is nothing like the games Itsuno made for the franchise so whatever they are their established world is different from DMC1's and in 1 there is enough evidence to say there is such a thing as the divine. Christianity? Maybe, maybe not. If the star of Bethlehem is both real and noteworthy at least the elements are.