A Devil May Cry review from a DMC's outsider

[Rebel Dynasty]

Just curious, but what exactly makes you feel the way you do in this regard? Maybe there's some insight I can give from my side of things or something, since I pored over info on the game since its announcement and such.

Plus, I'm also just a curious fellow who likes to understand the "why" of things :tongue:

What makes me feel like they didn't really respect the original series? Keep in mind, this is directed at some of Capcom's people as well. I watched quite a few interviews involving Tameem and other reps of Capcom and NT (usually one or another sitting in the interview with Tameem) and both would always make some disparaging comment toward the fan-base. That's actually where I first heard the whole "white hair complaint" thing. While I will admit there are people who complain about that, most people I know complain about the game's mechanics, narrative, or how they didn't like how they portrayed Dante's personality.

On one hand, he's supposed to be quite different from the original Dante-but then it seems that at the last minute, they threw in some fan service. They pandered, and created a character who is meant to have a sharper attitude, tried to give him the original's usual humorous personality, but with new Dante, it just doesn't work out.

This is merely my opinion on the matter. I can't find anything particularly endearing about the new version, nor do I feel like I can connect with him.

I also understand that when we're criticized for something we put so much work into, we sometimes take it personally; however, Tameem was actually rude to fans and non-fans alike over twitter when they would state the improvements they would like to see (when only the demo was released) or what they hoped would be fixed by the sequel. Yes, some people were rude to him as well, but some of the ones I saw were quite friendly toward him, opening by showering him with praise, and leading into what could be worked on...just for him to make some very immature rebuttals. :/

Like I said, my biggest issue is the way they handled the PR, and how they treated all of the fans.

(One of these days, I'll learn to condense my posts. Sorry for the length of it).

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

They really do pay homage to it, the game is essentially the events leading up to DMC3. The deviltrigger and how it turns dante's coat red. The way the gameplay feels so much like a modern version of DMC3.

Ah, but it's not. The reboot is a separate entity from the rest of the Devil May Cry games. Originally they intended it to be a prequel, but somewhere in the earlier stages of development, they scrapped that idea.

I really think there is a cultural misunderstanding about the wig scene. It really isn't meant to be offensive in the slightest, its merely a small bit of ironic humor, since dante's hair grows out and turns white by the end of the game.

I suppose that's a possibility, kind of a, "Never say never" thing.

I'm also not sure why you think they didn't play DMC, they most likely did, but remember this was a statement from a game designer, so it is probably better to judge how much of the game's actual mechanics and gameplay still retain the core of what made DMC a dmc game.

Oh, I wasn't questioning whether they played it; I questioned whether they really respected it. I'm still not sure what I believe, in that regard. From what I've seen, it retains some of the same mechanics, but they did bring in new ones-not that that's necessarily a bad thing. Different isn't bad, after all. It's all a matter of how it's handled, as it is different for everyone.

To me, and I think lots of gamers, the DMC series has always been the definitive hack and slash for stylish combat, because it was the only action game that emphasized player creativity with its fluid free flow combat. So, if you judge Tameem's and NT's statements within the parameters of game design, it shouldn't seem suspect at all that Tameem and the people at Ninja Theory did actually love the game when they were younger.

But that really begs the question...if you love it, why change it? I know, it was Capcom's idea. And like I said, change isn't necessarily a bad thing. I just don't feel like they handled it as well as they could have. But, I guess that's just me.

I hope none of you take what I say against the reboot personally; it isn't intended as such.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

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I also understand that when we're criticized for something we put so much work into, we sometimes take it personally; however, Tameem was actually rude to fans and non-fans alike over twitter when they would state the improvements they would like to see (when only the demo was released) or what they hoped would be fixed by the sequel. Yes, some people were rude to him as well, but some of the ones I saw were quite friendly toward him, opening by showering him with praise, and leading into what could be worked on...just for him to make some very immature rebuttals. :/

You mean that tweet where the gamer said DmC had a glitch in it and that gamer insulted Tameen while complaining about said glitch (which wasn't a glitch at all), to which Tameen replied with "We also don't have a mechanic to make you face palm".

Compared to what Activisons done, Capcom's insults to RE fans, and (yeah I dare say it) Kamiya telling his own fans to f*ck off, I don't see it as that big of a deal.

But that really begs the question...if you love it, why change it? I know, it was Capcom's idea. And like I said, change isn't necessarily a bad thing. I just don't feel like they handled it as well as they could have. But, I guess that's just me.

Because Capcom said "don't make DmC like DMC. If we wanted another DMC, we would have made it ourselves." That includes Dante's design, clothes, personality, and a lot of other things. Plus new Dante is what's considered "cool" in the west by a mainstream view, not by an insulting perspective like a lot of people seem to think.

Like Rebel without a cause or Fight Club, the whole "too cool to act shonen Japanese hero" type is what the West (along with myself) prefer.

I'd hate that a character I created who was intended to be western, suddenly be hated simply because I decided western style instead of eastern style while my fanbase is all anime fans. I don't have to be otaku with all my things like I don't know how to broaden my horizon.

But I'm just rambling now.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I watched quite a few interviews involving Tameem and other reps of Capcom and NT (usually one or another sitting in the interview with Tameem) and both would always make some disparaging comment toward the fan-base. That's actually where I first heard the whole "white hair complaint" thing. While I will admit there are people who complain about that, most people I know complain about the game's mechanics, narrative, or how they didn't like how they portrayed Dante's personality.

Mm, yeah. The only time I remember when Tameem and Alex Jones mentioned the stuff about hair it was when the first announcement came out in 2010, and they Alex Jones had said something akin to "there were thousands of forum posts about how Dante's hair wasn't white, when you can see white on the back of his head in the trailer." Then they mentioned how the hair is black for a reason, and it had a bearing on the narrative and Dante's journey.

That's always stuck out for me, and I've seen it as something confounding because at the time, that's the only complaint there could be (there hadn't been gameplay yet), but people ignored what the devs had to say (along with listening to a bunch of unsubstantiated rumors over info straight from the devs) :banghead:

On one hand, he's supposed to be quite different from the original Dante-but then it seems that at the last minute, they threw in some fan service. They pandered, and created a character who is meant to have a sharper attitude, tried to give him the original's usual humorous personality, but with new Dante, it just doesn't work out.

Sure, I can see that. I've always felt that they were trying to put forth the new aspects of Dante's personality and establish his place within the universe they were constructing, to emphasize that he isn't in a "good place" but slowly becomes similar to the classic. DmC is essentially Dante's journey to become the kind of champion of humanity we know him as, after all.

This is merely my opinion on the matter. I can't find anything particularly endearing about the new version, nor do I feel like I can connect with him.

That's perfectly understandable. A lot of the times the best characters are the ones that we can identify with; it's just the mark of good writing. Of course, not every character will be relatable to everyone, and sometimes a character isn't meant to be at all :tongue: I s'pose I've always felt Dante (both of them) were relatable to me because I have a similar attitude and charm about things, but DmC Dante was intriguing because it played to another aspect of myself I don't think about too much; having a rough life, and how we/I deal with it.

Tameem was actually rude to fans and non-fans alike over twitter when they would state the improvements they would like to see (when only the demo was released) or what they hoped would be fixed by the sequel. Yes, some people were rude to him as well, but some of the ones I saw were quite friendly toward him, opening by showering him with praise, and leading into what could be worked on...just for him to make some very immature rebuttals. :/

Yeah, I think overall all the responses were starting to get to him. The problem is that a lot of what people criticized the demo/game for or wanted to changes to were these like...fundamental elements that make DmC what it is, y'know? They set out to make a specific kind of game that was different in several ways (more air combat, new universe, etc), and people wanted those differences reverted to similarities - defeating the entire purpose of the game's existence. It's like being upset and wanting the sun not to be so bright, that's just the way it is >.<

I know one thing in particular that there's an image floating around of is Tameem's twitter reply to someone where he says they "don't have a fix for facepalming to it bleeds". The rough part is I saw that exchange happen on twitter, and he actually mistakenly replied to the wrong person :facepalm: The guy who he had actually was addressing was a guy saying "fix this sh!t I can stay in the air just by spamming angel chain!" Which makes Tameem's response seem far more applicable. It was certainly snarky, but it was in response to a guy who wasn't really being all that respectful to begin with.

I'm all for being nice to customers, but...having worked in retail for nearly a decade, I can more than accept someone being disrespected snapping back And Tameem...man...he got a whole lot of disrespect

Like I said, my biggest issue is the way they handled the PR, and how they treated all of the fans.

The PR was a nightmare, but the thing to remember is that it wasn't just Capcom and NT; the fanbase played a part too, a part that to this day I'm pretty ashamed of :'( There was a whole lot of putting words in the dev's mouths and misconstruing what they say in order to feel more offended - I literally argued with a guy who felt the use of the word sheepish (embarrassed, in the context it was given) was them calling DMC fans sheep that should just like every game that comes out in the franchise.

If my stance ever seems rather strong - it's because I have actually seen some of the worst of it with my own eyes :dead:

(One of these days, I'll learn to condense my posts. Sorry for the length of it).

Noooooooooo problem. You're making thoughtful and well-rounded posts. That's not a bad thing.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Ah, but it's not. The reboot is a separate entity from the rest of the Devil May Cry games. Originally they intended it to be a prequel, but somewhere in the earlier stages of development, they scrapped that idea.

I think that's just a miscommunication because they called it a reimagining and an origin story, which got pretty easily mixed up with "prequel". The odd thing is that it does potentially take place during a time before Dante ever thought about setting up a demon hunting business, and the game gives us a reason as to why he does what he does :tongue:

I suppose that's a possibility, kind of a, "Never say never" thing.

I've always said it was a joke with the punchline at the very end of the game. The wig represents classic Dante, that empathetic hero character, and at the beginning of the game, Dante has it plop down on his head, and he says "not in a million years", because at that point we know this Dante as a selfish and apathetic individual (certainly not a hero type). Then throughout the game he slowly opens up, learns to care for others, starts to become less selfish. At the end of the game, Dante's hair turns white (like the wig), and he declares himself humanity's champion (what the wig represents).

I guess it's not really a funny "ha-ha" joke, but more of a "Oh Dante...if you only knew."

But that really begs the question...if you love it, why change it? I know, it was Capcom's idea. And like I said, change isn't necessarily a bad thing. I just don't feel like they handled it as well as they could have. But, I guess that's just me.

Money >.< That'd be the higher-up's reason, but I also think they wanted to truly expand the franchise, try to grab more than just the small devoted fanbase it has. A lot of the fans of DMC were also the crowd that grew up on Toonami, Adult Swim, and other anime show blocks and such, and DMC was very much like anime from that time, It was a great relationship between fan and product, but it also sorta shoehorned the series, because anime doesn't necessarily have mass appeal, so they figured to try and do away with the more basic anime-like elements (westernizing it more).

Capcom's decision to make it so far-removed from what we remember was probably to ensure that any newcomers wouldn't feel they needed to know the classic series (which any reboot or new version strives to do).

All in all, I've always figured that Capcom and Ninja Theory's love for the franchise is why they tried so hard to make this appealing to many, pushing marketing, and giving people so many chances to try it out - they loved it so much that they wanted to bring more people in and show them what they loved. They also released the HD collection, to give anyone new to the series a chance to snag them all and really see where the franchise came from.

I hope none of you take what I say against the reboot personally; it isn't intended as such.

Not at all. You're respectful of our opinions as much as we are of yours! That's what I call a great discussion :3

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

Thanks for understanding, guys. The info was also very much appreciated.

 

[Teal]

Certainly a little biased (which idealistically isn't supposed to be the case in a gaming review, but often times is). The hate thing isn't necessarily true, but for many people, myself included (and not all people get this impression from one another, but based on conclusions they've reached on their own) it doesn't seem like NT respected the original series, either.

Personally, I don't think they did; or rather, I don't believe certain members did. If they respected the old series, they would have paid it homage while creating the new version, not flipped it off both in their PR handlings and in the game, itself. Like I said, members of Capcom are a-holes as well for the exact same things.

But, as others have stated, the focal point of the game review should have been on the gaming experience itself, instead of mostly on PR issues and regurgitated info about NT "hating the game". I'm sure they didn't hate it, but nor do I believe Tameem when he claimed to have loved the old series; the proof is in the pudding, as they say, and the way he managed things says a lot more to me than his claims ever will.

All that being said, I'm not one of those crazies who wishes him dead; I couldn't care less what happens to the man, one way or another. I just don't like him, that's all.

Why is it so hard for people to believe that Tameem might have actually liked the old franchise? Just because he did something different, doesn't necessarily mean he didn't respect it. The DmC controversy reminds me a lot of the Man of Steel one; All Snyder went for was a more realistic approach to what would happen if two superbeings fought on Earth, and all he got was tons of sh!t from the fans he could make a sh!t castle out of it. The same goes with NT; they weren't trying to lead you into a nostalgia trip, they were trying to recreate the franchise. They tried to imagine what would a superbeing do if he was living among fragile humans; obviously, whatever he wants with whoever he wants whenever he wants.

Plus, let's be fair here, DMC needed a reboot. It was blindly heading towards a dead end embedded with spikes. I mean, Vergil seems to have had a son called Nero, or no he wasn't his son, it was his..clone..thing? What?!