Dante's character growth in DMC3

[Kam]

Discussed this a long time ago in a CUHRAYZEE general on /vg/, figured I'd post it here. Won't bore you with the lengthy write-up, just some bullet points and then youtube videos. Anyway, the stages of dante's growth can be observed during each of the 3 vergil fights.

Vergil Fight 1:

• up to this point, dante has refused to acknowledge his demonic side (characteristic of his "tony redgrave" backstory)
• when confronted about it, he jokingly denies his heritage, and even denies having a father
• dante challenges vergil to a fight with his guns
  • this is important, dante's guns are human made, and symbolic of his human side.
  • dante is basically challenging vergil using his humanity
• vergil thinks of his human side as a weakness, and embraces his demonic heritage
• dante loses the fight

Vergil Fight 2:

• dante has begun acknowledging his heritage, but not with a serious attitude
  • will jokingly admit to having a demon father
  • calls sparda by things like "pop" and "old man"
• vergil's views on his human side are unchanged, he still embraces only his demonic side
• dante challenges vergil to a fight with rebellion
  • this is important, rebellion is demonic in nature, and symbolic of dante's inherited demon blood
  • dante is basically challenging vergil using his demonic power
• dante has acquired new demonic power since the last encounter
• vergil has also acquired new demonic power since last encounter
• their fight ends in a draw

Vergil Fight 3:

• dante now fully acknowledges sparda, and his demonic heritage
• vergil thinks he's joking, and accuses him of wasting his time
  • closeup on dante's face, for the first time in DMC universe's history, he's being serious
• vergil has acquired tremendous demonic power in the form of force edge, sparda's sword
  • this allows him to completely cast away his human side, by wielding force edge he has the powers of a full demon now
• dante has acquired no significant new power since his last encounter with vergil
• dante challenges vergil to a fight using his own fists
  • dante himself is symbolic of human and demonic mixing, and he is just now realizing it
  • dante is challenging vergil to a fight as himself, not as a demon or as a human, but both
• dante wins
• vergil, still refusing to accept his human side as a source of strength, willingly exiles himself to the demon realm

 

[SuperDante007]

Spot on brother, you've nailed it. My favorite line in DMC3 is "I have to stop you Vergil... even if that means killing you." You can hear the sadness in his voice and it's, I believe, the deepest we have ever heard Dante, besides possibly encounters with Mundus (after Griffon 3rd fight, going against Mundus etc)

PS. I'm really hoping it kind of goes down like this in DmC, really hoping they simply can't see eye to eye and it comes to a fight that neither want but can't back down from... hoping for a very emotional scene as the two are parted after years of being seperated and Dante is forced to defeat Vergil and cause "Vergil's Downfall"

 

[Kam]

my one gripe with the series has always been that they don't do a very good job of telling this story, and the average player might even go through the whole game not even realizing a story had happened. I'm really hoping that DmC resolves these story telling issues. I mean, they wrote enslaved and heavenly sword, and those games had pretty awesome storytelling, so there's some hope for that

 

[KtWtWiS43]

my one gripe with the series has always been that they don't do a very good job of telling this story, and the average player might even go through the whole game not even realizing a story had happened. I'm really hoping that DmC resolves these story telling issues. I mean, they wrote enslaved and heavenly sword, and those games had pretty awesome storytelling, so there's some hope for that

Actually, you'd have to thank Andy Serkis for his writing for Heavenly Sword and Enslaved. DmC is the first game Tameem's done where he has absolute creative control with the story and direction of the game.

 

[V]

Yea, I'm not sure exactly what NT are 'famous' for apart from making games with screen tear or slightly clunky controls. They had help writing and designing previous titles or building on existing IP and they don't have many to their name besides. DmC is supposed to be mostly 'theirs' (although again, not their IP with most of the backstory/chars already laid out) so I guess we'll find out if they are really all that. I think NT are a bit overhyped as a studio tbh.

 

[Kam]

Actually, you'd have to thank Andy Serkis for his writing for Heavenly Sword and Enslaved. DmC is the first game Tameem's done where he has absolute creative control with the story and direction of the game.

well that's.... concerning

 

[KtWtWiS43]

well that's.... concerning

I'm sure he knows exactly what he's doing. I mean, putting the Slurm Queen from Futurama into the game is clearly both a critque of modern consumerism and a nod to Marxist anti-capitalist doctrine. What may at first seem like poor script writing, in making the Slurm Queen's speech primarily consist of "F--k Yous," in fact cleverly disguises Tameem's lampooning of modern day vernacular, which paints the burgouise as implementing poor speech to dull the minds of the proletariat by promoting such poor speech into the superstructure, to be absorbed through energy drink form to be reciprocated by the masses. Clearly, Tameem is a genius. And not an illiterate moron. And he also has great hair. I also find him incredibly attractive to members of both sexes. And he has shiny teeth.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I'm sure he knows exactly what he's doing. I mean, putting the Slurm Queen from Futurama into the game is clearly both a critque of modern consumerism and a nod to Marxist anti-capitalist doctrine. What may at first seem like poor script writing, in making the Slurm Queen's speech primarily consist of "F--k Yous," in fact cleverly disguises Tameem's lampooning of modern day vernacular, which paints the burgouise as implementing poor speech to dull the minds of the proletariat by promoting such poor speech into the superstructure, to be absorbed through energy drink form to be reciprocated by the masses. Clearly, Tameem is a genius. And not an illiterate moron. And he also has great hair. I also find him incredibly attractive to members of both sexes. And he has shiny teeth.

Oh yeah, that's practically oozing sarcasm.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Truly in the spirit of the Masked Man, New!Vergil's tribute to the persona of V, who is clearly much of Tameem's insperation for that aspect of the game's story as such that the precipice of the character of V was built upon the culture of Britain, which is NT's country of origin, so clearly the vernacular of the land would be a heavy influance and-

Yeah, now I'm just bullsh*tting for lulz.

 

[Kam]

oh yeah, additional bit of fan theory. There's loose facts to connect this, but it's much more something pieced together than something that can be observed.

So nero is more or less confirmed to be vergil's son (more on that later if necessary) with the way the events of DMC3 play out, vergil would had to have had nero before DMC3 happened, most likely within that year where dante was out of contact with vergil, leading up to the events of 3, so here's the rough idea of what happens. Nero's backstory is that his mother was killed and he never knew his father, and he grew up in an orphanage, to be later picked up by the order of the sword for his natural ass-kicking abilities.

Vergil had to have taken the stick out of his ass long enough to settle down with a human woman and have a kid. It's anyone's guess what this period of time was like, there's a good chance he started getting used to having a relatively peaceful life. His wife might have even convinced him to stop carrying around his sword all the time (something dante has no problems doing in his books). Eventually something happens, and vergil and his wife are attacked. Having grown used to a relatively peaceful life, and most likely without his sword, vergil is defeated, his wife is killed, and nero is lost, presumed dead. This is what triggers vergil's sudden and dramatic quest for power.

When you fight vergil at the tower, and he stabs dante and delivers the line about strength being needed to protect anything, he isn't talking about dante not being able to protect himself, he's actually referring to his own failure to protect his wife and son. He blames all of this one his human desire to live a peaceful life without need of fighting, which is why he now sees the removal of his human side as suddenly so important.

It's making a lot of loose connections and assumptions, but if this does end up being even remotely close to the truth, vergil's character and motivations during DMC3 have suddenly gained like 8 new levels of depth

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Correction; Nero is more or less confirmed BY THE DIRECTOR'S OWN TIMELINE to not be Vergil's son. DMC3 is ten years prior to DMC4, as stated by Kobayashi, Nero was 19 in DCM4, which was Dante and Vergil's confirmed age for DMC3. Therefore, Vergil would have to have been 9 when he impregnated a woman in order for Nero to be his son. Capcoms also specified Vergil's drive for power and feelings of failure to protect is because of Eva's death.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Wait. 10 years prier to DMC4? How does that make sense if in DMC1, Trish told Dante that he lost a brother and a mother to evil 20 years ago. If you remember Dante was 8 when he lost his family, so if you count from there, he's 28 in DMC1.

In DMC3, he was about 18 or 19 years old. So if you count up the ages, he'd be 28 or 29, the age he was in DMC1.

Timeline mess up anyone?

 

[DragonMaster2010]

On topic;

I didn't really like Dante's character transition in the Vergil fights cause they were very straight forward and had very lack luster results. Why should I care about Vergil stabbing Dante if I know he's just gonna survive anyway since he can take scythes to the chest. Also why should I have really cared or felt bad about Vergil falling off the edge? All those two did the entire game is fight each other and didn't really have a small moment of discussing anything that would be meaningful to their relationship until their final battle, and even that wasn't something that we already did know.

Though I will admit I liked his raw emotion he felt in his final battle when he knew that Vergil went too far and that only he could have the ability to stop him from killing millions.

 

[Valcorn]

oh yeah, additional bit of fan theory. There's loose facts to connect this, but it's much more something pieced together than something that can be observed.

So nero is more or less confirmed to be vergil's son (more on that later if necessary) with the way the events of DMC3 play out, vergil would had to have had nero before DMC3 happened, most likely within that year where dante was out of contact with vergil, leading up to the events of 3, so here's the rough idea of what happens. Nero's backstory is that his mother was killed and he never knew his father, and he grew up in an orphanage, to be later picked up by the order of the sword for his natural ass-kicking abilities.

Vergil had to have taken the stick out of his ass long enough to settle down with a human woman and have a kid. It's anyone's guess what this period of time was like, there's a good chance he started getting used to having a relatively peaceful life. His wife might have even convinced him to stop carrying around his sword all the time (something dante has no problems doing in his books). Eventually something happens, and vergil and his wife are attacked. Having grown used to a relatively peaceful life, and most likely without his sword, vergil is defeated, his wife is killed, and nero is lost, presumed dead. This is what triggers vergil's sudden and dramatic quest for power.

When you fight vergil at the tower, and he stabs dante and delivers the line about strength being needed to protect anything, he isn't talking about dante not being able to protect himself, he's actually referring to his own failure to protect his wife and son. He blames all of this one his human desire to live a peaceful life without need of fighting, which is why he now sees the removal of his human side as suddenly so important.

It's making a lot of loose connections and assumptions, but if this does end up being even remotely close to the truth, vergil's character and motivations during DMC3 have suddenly gained like 8 new levels of depth

Finally someone who gets Vergil's character and story. There's no doubt he is Vergil's son, even Capcom employee was asked this during online stream, and he didn't deny such. Even Dante's interaction with Nero in DMC4 confirms it, he wouldn't have left Yamato to some random guy, it stays in the family indeed

 

[D-Sparda]

Wait. 10 years prier to DMC4? How does that make sense if in DMC1, Trish told Dante that he lost a brother and a mother to evil 20 years ago. If you remember Dante was 8 when he lost his family, so if you count from there, he's 28 in DMC1.

In DMC3, he was about 18 or 19 years old. So if you count up the ages, he'd be 28 or 29, the age he was in DMC1.

Timeline mess up anyone?

Trish should of said something like this: «To the forces of evil, you lost your mother 20 years ago and your brother 8 years ago. »

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Trish should of said something like this: «To the forces of evil, you lost your mother 20 years ago and your brother 8 years ago. »

Yeah, but Kamiya wasn't writing DMC3 to do that. He wasn't planning to bring Vergil back after DMC1.

 

[V]

oh yeah, additional bit of fan theory. There's loose facts to connect this, but it's much more something pieced together than something that can be observed.

So nero is more or less confirmed to be vergil's son (more on that later if necessary) with the way the events of DMC3 play out, vergil would had to have had nero before DMC3 happened, most likely within that year where dante was out of contact with vergil, leading up to the events of 3, so here's the rough idea of what happens. Nero's backstory is that his mother was killed and he never knew his father, and he grew up in an orphanage, to be later picked up by the order of the sword for his natural ass-kicking abilities.

Vergil had to have taken the stick out of his ass long enough to settle down with a human woman and have a kid. It's anyone's guess what this period of time was like, there's a good chance he started getting used to having a relatively peaceful life. His wife might have even convinced him to stop carrying around his sword all the time (something dante has no problems doing in his books). Eventually something happens, and vergil and his wife are attacked. Having grown used to a relatively peaceful life, and most likely without his sword, vergil is defeated, his wife is killed, and nero is lost, presumed dead. This is what triggers vergil's sudden and dramatic quest for power.

When you fight vergil at the tower, and he stabs dante and delivers the line about strength being needed to protect anything, he isn't talking about dante not being able to protect himself, he's actually referring to his own failure to protect his wife and son. He blames all of this one his human desire to live a peaceful life without need of fighting, which is why he now sees the removal of his human side as suddenly so important.

It's making a lot of loose connections and assumptions, but if this does end up being even remotely close to the truth, vergil's character and motivations during DMC3 have suddenly gained like 8 new levels of depth

So a guy who can no longer protect those he cared about (because they are dead/he thinks they are dead) will suddenly decide to raise a tower that clearly leads to the death of thousands of other people and their families? That doesn't make sense to me. You're telling me a guy with those kinds of family values would disregard tons of other people's lives just to get 'strength' when his own 'family' is already dead?

Vergil's power quest and the things he says hints at his ignorance of the value of human relationships. I.e. - he's never had any. Anyone who has and values other people wouldn't indirectly but deliberately slaughter a huge number of others to make a point. Unless they're batshit insane.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Finally someone who gets Vergil's character and story. There's no doubt he is Vergil's son, even Capcom employee was asked this during online stream, and he didn't deny such. Even Dante's interaction with Nero in DMC4 confirms it, he wouldn't have left Yamato to some random guy, it stays in the family indeed

Wow, you are that obssesed with Bingo's private version of continuity and what one localization guy said at Captivate because that was his opinion, when Kobayashi confirmed otherwise, and as director, he OVERRULES Bingo and the freelance novelization, what all the other writers and staff have said about Vergil's character(they have confirmed, he was written as a one dimensional character because that's all that mattered for DMC3's story), and the offical timelines. Nero is 19 in DMC4, Dante is 29. That means Vergil had to be friggin NINE YEARS OLD when Nero was concieved in order for him to be the father. It was also confirmed Vergil's line about power to protect what's important was about EVA, not any fanfictioned "wife and son". He was 19 in DMC3, confirmed by multiple sources within Capcom. Please get OVER it, I even gave you the friggin references and interview links. They even said outright when teh game was coming out in interviews, Nero is not DIRECTLY related to the twins, that means he is NOT Vergil's son.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

So a guy who can no longer protect those he cared about (because they are dead/he thinks they are dead) will suddenly decide to raise a tower that clearly leads to the death of thousands of other people and their families? That doesn't make sense to me. You're telling me a guy with those kinds of family values would disregard tons of other people's lives just to get 'strength' when his own 'family' is already dead?

Vergil's power quest and the things he says hints at his ignorance of the value of human relationships. I.e. - he's never had any. Anyone who has and values other people wouldn't indirectly but deliberately slaughter a huge number of others to make a point. Unless they're batshit insane.

But that's the thing; Vergil IS batshit insane. His mind has been warped into wanting power no matter what, and what's worse to his insanity is that he doesn't even know why he wants power in the first place. He just wants it to have it and even then he'll still be greedy for more power after that. Even if he surpasses Sparda, Vergil would want to exceed even that of Mundus himself. But he just wants to do it to honnor the family name, and he's also a bit selfish.

Plus he's batshit crazy too.

 

[V]

Yes, he has the hallmarks of insanity under the collected exterior.

But to kill a town to 'protect' some already dead people in his mind that he 'cares' about would make him insane AND practically moronic.

I prefer to think Vergil may be insane, but not stupid.