The DmC Issue

[CoolDemon]

In this thread i hope that i can explain throughly why i dislike DmC and why others dislike it as well.

Let's start with looking at DMC to DMC 4 logos.

And DmC logo:

Have you noticed DmC is often called DMC 5 (with capital M and the number 5) - but the logo says only "DmC", and it stands for Devil May Cry not Devil May Cry 5.
This is a reason why people are annoyed. DmC is portrayed as a DMC game, and DMC 5, but at same time the logo is distancing DmC from all other DMC games.
Prince of Persia and Assassin's creed have MOST of same gameplay, and gameplay is what people often use as basis to call games a DMC game or not. Does that mean that Assassin's creed is actually a Prince of Persia game?
When thinking about it the lower case m could be because it was better than a capital M for the logo.
But i don't get it - is DmC = DMC 5 or is it DmC 1? If it's DMC 5 - where is the '5'?

TWO DIFFERENT CHARACTERS LOOKED AT AS ONE​

DmC Dante and DMC Dante is not the same characters. Of course DmC Dante is based off DMC Dante - but does that mean it's the same character? No.​

​

Let's take have a look at the two Dante:​

​

DmC Hair: White colour comes from demonic power.​

DMC Hair: White hair is a trait from father's human form.​

​

DmC Genes: Angel/Demon​

DMC Genes: Human/Demon​

​

These are two features that makes them different. And DmC is using DMC as template, that means that they are using ideas from DMC and applying it to DmC. Gameplay, enemies, powers etc.​

​

For example Assassins Creed used Prince of Persia as template. However, they both were portrayed and came out as two different games. But comparing AC to Prince of Persia one can easily say "Prince of Persia is AC's big brother".​

​

​

This guy below is Blade:​

​

​

He is half vampire, half human. He's a source of inspiration for DMC Dante. Because his name is not Dante, he's not half human/demon and has not white hair and light skin he can not be Dante. The differences distinguish Dante as Dante and Blade as Blade.

And as i pointed out with DmC and DMC Dante they have two important differences that makes both characters clash if one says "DmC Dante is DMC Dante".

Let's try a dialogue to illustrate my point further:

Person A: DmC Dante and DMC Dante is the same character dude.
Person B: How come his hair is not completely white, and why is white hair result of demon powers in DmC?

Person A: Because that's how Dante got white hair, he had black hair in beginning.
Person B: How come DMC Dante's father has white hair in human form, and no white hair in demon form?
Person A: Well...
Person B: And why is it that DMC Dante's white hair hasn't been told to be from his demon powers?
Person B: Uh...
Person A: And why is Devil May Cry Anime that Capcom supports showing a kid Dante with white hair? And what about the DMC 1 Sparda family concept art where two white hair babies are shown?

END OF DIALOGUE

See? The characters are clashing. They are not the same characters. Since DmC Dante is copying DMC Dante (which is in reality what it is) it makes DmC Dante a version of DMC Dante.

If Nintendo made a new Mario:​

He is now a car mechanic. His eyes are green, he has no mustache, and wears a orange cap.​

Would you seriously think of this new guy as Mario? Just because his name is the same? Or would you think "It's another Mario" as in real life "There are more than one people named X". So two individuals with same name but at same time not the same person.​

​

Despite being two different characters they are talked about as the same by Game sites and the developers.​

​

​

REBORN OR NOT?​

​

In a story context a individual is reborn through incarnation or ressurction. In order to be able to say "He's been REBORN" the person who comes back to life must have lived and died. In a game context a new character can only be a reborn form of a other character if the original character dies - as in no longer seen in games in future. For example DMC and DMC Dante must die before it's appropriate to say "Dante has been reborn in DmC". And by saying the reborn line it means an end to original game and it's character.​

​

Because then your saying "Ok, original character and new character are the same, but the new one is a rebirth of original character".​

​

But Capcom hasn't expressed that DmC will replace or carry on the legacy of DMC. So DMC and Dante isn't dead, therefor DmC Dante isn't reborn. He is simply born.​

​

DANTE IS NO LONGER COOL​

Yes, you heard that right. Dante from DMC is no longer cool - that's why he needs a update so that this generation gamers find him cool. It seems the idea is to make DmC's character more relateable. So that players can say "Oh that guy looks like us in a way! He has issues like me!". And notice that Tameem Antoniades who said this shows us that they indeed hoped people would take DmC Dante as DMC Dante. But people rejected DmC Dante as same as DMC Dante.​

Ninja theory was not responsible for a new character - it's Capcom. But note Capcom never was spesific about how the new "Dante" should be like. If Capcom were spesific and said "Ninja theory make Dante into a punk who smokes, has black hair etc", then why did they tell Ninja theory "Just go for it" (as in go all out on a change)?​

​

Then comes the question by whos standards is a punk smoker who looks all dirty and beat up cool? How did Ninja theory gain the knowledge "Yes, this is what's cool nowdays". Because remember Ninja theory said "Dante is no longer cool - what was cool 12 years ago is no longer cool".​

​

You know what they did? This:​

1:46 Notice how he's making love to his cigarette​

​

When fans saw this they went berserk. When i saw it three things bothered me 1) smoke 2) white hair 3) drug look. Don't misunderstand me i don't mind black hair but the "white hair is demon power result" is just crap. And i live in year 2011 and i can tell you i have not ONCE heard anyone say "Smoking is cool" , and VERY rarely see a punk looking person.​

​

Let me remind you again - they took a hit at DMC Dante and said he was no longer cool- and that he was outdated: but they took inspiration from Punk movement and the "smoking is cool" from old days. These two things were popular somewhere between 1970s-1990s (roughly guess). But what year are we in? 2011.​

WHAT IS COOL IN 2000-2011?​

That's what Ninja theory should have found out. You see the hypocrisy? Bash DMC Dante because he's 12 years old, and then go and use inspiration from decades ago.​

​

I believe that they really stepped on DMC Dante. They have used him as advertisement as well. Because let's be realistic DmC Dante is not DMC Dante, so why call him the same? Is the name Dante any cool nowdays to youths? Is the name Dante a relateable one - since Ninja theory is focusing so much on portraying DmC Dante as a realistic person.​

​

STEPPING ON FANS & DMC​

​

We as fans are attatched to Dante. We love the guy right? Of course he has flaws but the positive things by him makes us think "That guy is my buddy!". Or if your a fanboy/girl lover lol. So even though Capcom owes DMC when we fans see change to this character we are saddened. As a Dante fan i rather see him be terminated than see a version of him that's not him. Ninja theory and Alex jones laughed when white hair was brought up during interviews. Again - laughed.​

​

I wonder how Ninja theory would feel if we touched Nariko, Trip or Monkey? Would they still laugh? No - because they aren't Dante fans. The DmC project is just a side thing for them that grants them money. And that's fine - but if your gonna be making the next game of a game serie at least be decent human being and show respect to the game character and fans.​

​

You know what Tameem said about Bayonetta? A japanese art style game - "It's very japanesy and for THAT absurd style it does it very well."​

DMC 2-4 has been japanesy. That shows you his attitude towards DMC art style. Honestly? I find Ninja theory's realistic DmC really great - but to call japanese art style absurd is just rude. DMC 1 is favourite of all DMC to me because among the reasons is the art style.​

​

My wrist hurts now - i will stop. I hope that you guys found this thread worth reading.

 

[berto]

I'll address my responce to all of this in this manner. I'll be the red text.

Let's start with looking at DMC to DMC 4 logos.

This isn't the Devil May Cry logo, it's the logo to the anime. You should've stock with the one from the game since we are talking about the games.

And DmC logo:

Have you noticed DmC is often called DMC 5 (with capital M and the number 5) - but the logo says only "DmC", and it stands for Devil May Cry not Devil May Cry 5.


It's called DmC because it's not in relation to the other games in the series. This game isn't called Devil May Cry it's called DmC: Devil May Cry. Adding a 5 at the end is common missconception. It's in the same fashion you could call Batman Returns Batman 2 but you can't call Batman Beggins Batman 5, it's not the same series.

This is a reason why people are annoyed. DmC is portrayed as a DMC game, and DMC 5, but at same time the logo is distancing DmC from all other DMC games.

I'll admit, this is most definitly not in the spirit of the previous logos but I don't find this as annoying as you do. Yeah, the spray paint theme is not what I would envision when I think of DMC, but NT seems to think that tagging is what's cool now so in it goes. But this doesn't bother me anymore, it did, once

Prince of Persia and Assassin's creed have MOST of same gameplay, and gameplay is what people often use as basis to call games a DMC game or not. Does that mean that Assassin's creed is actually a Prince of Persia game?

Only because Ubisoft doesn't want it to be. In this case it's a DMC because capcom owns the IP and deems it so. Were they to make a Resident Evil reboot game what had no zombies, a different gameplay system that was more like a stealth game than a shooter, a teenage skinhead Leon or Chris, and in no way, shape or form any mention of an umbrella of any kind ever they can still call it Resident Evil because it's their IP to do with as they will. They could've called this game Mm: MegaMan if they so choose.
When thinking about it the lower case m could be because it was better than a capital M for the logo.
But i don't get it - is DmC = DMC 5 or is it DmC 1? If it's DMC 5 - where is the '5'?

No DmC = DmC1, it's a new franchise, like how you have MegaMan Zero and MegaMan X, same characters, similar backgrounds, same basic gameplay, but ultimatly diferent things altogether.

TWO DIFFERENT CHARACTERS LOOKED AT AS ONE​

DmC Dante and DMC Dante is not the same characters. Of course DmC Dante is based off DMC Dante - but does that mean it's the same character? No.​

​

Bruce Wayne is still Bruce Wayne, whether played by Val Kilmer or Christian Bale.​

​

Let's take have a look at the two Dante:​

Ok.​

​

DmC Hair: White colour comes from demonic power.​

Maybe, but white would provably be more related to the angelic side this time around, what, with white been more related with angels than demons.​

​

DMC Hair: White hair is a trait from father's human form.​

Actually, it's a Japanese thing. In Japan white hair implies a certain otherworldlyness, specially if the character with the white hair isn't ol enough to have it.​

​

​

These are two features that makes them different. And DmC is using DMC as template, that means that they are using ideas from DMC and applying it to DmC. Gameplay, enemies, powers etc.​

It's no different than any Batman reencarnation. Rich playboy Bruce Wayne is a dark avenger who seeks to make the world a better place after the brutal murder of the death of his parents. All versions are somewhat different but it's still Batman.​

For example Assassins Creed used Prince of Persia as template. However, they both were portrayed and came out as two different games. But comparing AC to Prince of Persia one can easily say "Prince of Persia is AC's big brother".​

If we look at it like that then all sandbox games where you play a criminal are actually Grand Theft Auto in disguise or it's nephews. ​

​

This guy below is Blade:​

​

Image broken!​

He is half vampire, half human. He's a source of inspiration for DMC Dante. Because his name is not Dante, he's not half human/demon and has not white hair and light skin he can not be Dante. The differences distinguish Dante as Dante and Blade as Blade.
Well, one of the sources, but your point been just because Blade is where Dante came from it doesn't make him Blade or Cobra. The same way you say that just because this new Dante came from the original doesn't make him Dante; You right, it doesn't, Capcom saying that he is does, he's their character and as farfetch as it sounds they could've made him a post and if they say it's Dante it goes. We don't have to like, not in the slightest, but it's Capcoms property.

See? The characters are clashing.
Yeah. But so are all the versions of Batman, Mega Man, SpiderMan, the X-Men, Superman, WonderWoman, and every other rebooted character ever. They are still them.

They are not the same characters. Since DmC Dante is copying DMC Dante (which is in reality what it is) it makes DmC Dante a version of DMC Dante.
But a version of a character is still said character.

If Nintendo made a new Mario:​

He is now a car mechanic. His eyes are green, he has no mustache, and wears a orange cap.​

Would you seriously think of this new guy as Mario? Just because his name is the same? Or would you think "It's another Mario" as in real life "There are more than one people named X". So two individuals with same name but at same time not the same person.​

And this is certainly a similar situation than the one we are currently involved in. However, if Nintendo wanted to make this Mario imige you've descrived as the New and Improved S Mario Bros. it's their right. Their character, they can turn him in to an italian chef who looks like Gordon Ramsey if they so choose.​

​

​

In a story context a individual is reborn through incarnation or ressurction. In order to be able to say "He's been REBORN" the person who comes back to life must have lived and died. In a game context a new character can only be a reborn form of a other character if the original character dies - as in no longer seen in games in future. For example DMC and DMC Dante must die before it's appropriate to say "Dante has been reborn in DmC". And by saying the reborn line it means an end to original game and it's character.​

That acctually might be the implication. It has been said that if this game bodes well it's the end of the original franchise.​

​

He is simply born.​

Well, been simply born doesn't have as great a ring as been reborn, now does it. They're tryin' to sell a game here.​

​

DANTE IS NO LONGER COOL​

Yes, you heard that right. Dante from DMC is no longer cool - that's why he needs a update so that this generation gamers find him cool. It seems the idea is to make DmC's character more relateable. So that players can say "Oh that guy looks like us in a way! He has issues like me!". And notice that Tameem Antoniades who said this shows us that they indeed hoped people would take DmC Dante as DMC Dante. But people rejected DmC Dante as same as DMC Dante.​

God! Why is everything been remade for the Twilight Generation? It's not that great! If you like Twilight, good for you, but that doesn't mean everything should turn into it!​

​

Then comes the question by whos standards is a punk smoker who looks all dirty and beat up cool? How did Ninja theory gain the knowledge "Yes, this is what's cool nowdays".​

I would assume it's simply how they think DMC should be. Another developer with the same notion of making him 'cool' might want to make him in to a smooth, suave, hustler, or a fast talking, wise cracking cop who doesn't play by the rules.​

​

Because remember Ninja theory said "Dante is no longer cool - what was cool 12 years ago is no longer cool".​

I don't know... Maybe they're right. 12 years is a long time. I mean 12 years. Think about it, that's a decade and in this digital age that's even more than before. No matter how hard I think there is nothing that's more than 2 years old that's still cool. For example Bruce Lee isn't that cool anymore, with his bad ass fighting style that changed the world or his philosophy in fighting, martial arts or the limitless human potential. Cowboy Bebop isn't cool anymore ether, totally outdated, and so is Steve McQueen, and the Beattles, so's Queen, the Crow, Indiana Jones, Elvis Eron Presley, Kiss, Rolling Stones, Miles Davis, and I know that there are no movies that are older than 5 years that are in any way shape or form cool.​

​

Yeah, I think you're coffusing cool with popular because popular comes and goes but if something is cool, I mean genuinely cool, it stays cool.​

​

You know what they did? This:​

[Incert Smoking add here]​

When fans saw this they went berserk. When i saw it three things bothered me 1) smoke 2) white hair 3) drug look. Don't misunderstand me i don't mind black hair but the "white hair is demon power result" is just crap. And i live in year 2011 and i can tell you i have not ONCE heard anyone say "Smoking is cool" , and VERY rarely see a punk looking person.​

You in England, mate? I hear it's more promenant over there. But I know where your comming from. The creator of Dante once said that if he couldn't make Dante cool without smoking then he wouldn't be cool smoking. It's what Capcom approved, it's what they claim will attract sales, it might work, it might not. We'll see,​

​

That's what Ninja theory should have found out. You see the hypocrisy? Bash DMC Dante because he's 12 years old, and then go and use inspiration from decades ago.​

Hmm. I suppose that's one way to look at it. But you see NT's impression of DMC is that it was made to reflect popular culture in it's time (I don't see it) and they want to use that formula to do the same with this 'update' of the series.​

​

​

STEPPING ON FANS & DMC​

​

We as fans are attatched to Dante. We love the guy right? Of course he has flaws but the positive things by him makes us think "That guy is my buddy!". Or if your a fanboy/girl lover lol. So even though Capcom owes DMC when we fans see change to this character we are saddened. As a Dante fan i rather see him be terminated than see a version of him that's not him. Ninja theory and Alex jones laughed when white hair was brought up during interviews. Again - laughed.​

I was going to post this on it's own thread but here's just as good. It's another interview he did:​

​

And what about the fans reaction on forums and such? Some have been towards you personally and it wasn't nice words​

Tameem: It's a situation I have gotten used to and it's nothing I can do about it and I don't feel the need to do anything about it. Capcom were the ones that came to us asking to change the DMC franchise, to make it "new and exciting".​

​

And the reaction from the fans isn't something unique, just look at Batman: The Dark Knight what they did with the character, a new fresh start to work with and Tim Burtons version of Batman was hated and ****ed people off in the 90s. It's just how it is, we will lose fans and we will also find new ones. Maybe it will be easier for the old time fans to think the new DmC game as a parallel universe to the other games, kinda like Ultimate Spider-Man. Still, no one outside the studio have played the game so we are hoping that some will think they were wrong to bash on the game so early.​

​

Isn't weird that gamers, fans of this progressive medium, are so reactional (Some swedish expression, no idea what it is in english) when it comes to their favorite gameserie?​

Tameem: Yes, it is the same things with comics movies and music. When your favoriteband all of sudden starts playing a whole new genre, you get upset.​

But things have to change for the better sometimes and progress every now and then to survive and that is what Capcom asked us to do, to make it new and exciting. We then told them that if we accepted this, the changes would be dramatic(SWENGRISH!) and shocking but there is a thought behind every change we made. We didn't just made up some ideas and were happy about them. We looked from different standpoints when we designed the game and if we did our job well, it will make sense in the end.​

​

I wonder how Ninja theory would feel if we touched Nariko, Trip or Monkey? Would they still laugh? No - because they aren't Dante fans. The DmC project is just a side thing for them that grants them money. And that's fine - but if your gonna be making the next game of a game serie at least be decent human being and show respect to the game character and fans.​

That's a somewhat fair statement, NT provably wouldn't like it if another studio were to re envision their work, but it's not entirely fair since I'm sure that there are a few people in the staff who are fans but Capcom demanded change and if it wasn't this then it'd be something else just as drastic. ​

​

You know what Tameem said about Bayonetta? A japanese art style game - "It's very japanesy and for THAT absurd style it does it very well."​

DMC 2-4 has been japanesy. That shows you his attitude towards DMC art style. Honestly? I find Ninja theory's realistic DmC really great - but to call japanese art style absurd is just rude. DMC 1 is favourite of all DMC to me because among the reasons is the art style.​

Yeah, there are more PC ways of saying that, but the games do have a very Japanese flare to them. Been a Bayonetta nut I do take offence to both those statements but the games have gotten pretty farfetched and Bayonetta is fairly nutty and silly. That doesn't mean that they should reboot, everyone wants to reboot these days, rather than trying harder the next time around they rather start with a clean slate.​

​

​

I do agree with some of what you say but not all. I am still angry at the reboot and I do know where your comming from, but this isn't exactly reflecting how I feel about the situation.

 

[CoolDemon]

Berto let's discuss things without including rights.

Anime logo looks very like DMC 1 logo which is why i made the mistake. I know it's called DmC because it's not related to DMC serie. I am just saying why is it that many people (fans included), game sites and others call DmC for DMC 5?

As for the logo of DmC i don't have a problem with it.

Again i am well aware why it's called DmC. But if DmC is the start of DmC games - then DmC is not a DMC game but a DmC game. And the question is "Is DmC really a DMC game?". Considering DmC is a start of a new serie/franchise and not the same as DMC - then i don't see how it's a DMC game. Rights is irelevant in my eyes. And Capcom can make a Mario sort of game with no horror at all or anything relating to Resident evil serie - and they can call it Resident Evil yes. But is it really a Resident Evil game? What defines a Resident Evil game? Is it a piece of paper saying "We have rights to call what we want Resident Evil" or how the game is?

Bruce Wayne setence - i think it's not right to compare game characters to movie characters. Because actors live and die. That is why change of actors is common. But a character can never die. It's not alive.

Maybe, but white would provably be more related to the angelic side this time around, what, with white been more related with angels than demons.

What side of race white hair comes in DmC from is besides the point. Dante isn't an angel and he has white hair because of his father's form. And i don't get why japanese thing has anything to do with this? Sparda's human form has white hair - or am i wrong on that? And if i am not wrong - then that's the reason why Dante and Vergil has white hair (storywise).​

​

It's no different than any Batman reencarnation. Rich playboy Bruce Wayne is a dark avenger who seeks to make the world a better place after the brutal murder of the death of his parents. All versions are somewhat different but it's still Batman.​

Batman is a alias. That's why if Batman dies he can give the alias over to someone he trusts. Dante is not a alias.​

GTA kind of games made by Rockstar is not GTA. GTA means stealing cars which is what you will do tons of times when playing the game. Red Dead Redemption has no cars and isn't called GTA. So though GTA was used as template for Red Dead Redemption - the game is not the same other than the gameplay concept. And it's certainly not advertised as such either.​

But is DmC Dante really DMC Dante if you put property papers aside?​

Batman, Mega Man, SpiderMan, The X-Men, Superman etc are pretty much aliases. And reboots are done in movies, and property rights is what backs up that "This X is Y character" despite original character is not the same as the reboot characters. But just because there is many versions made of a certain character and papers is what makes them offical - is the characters really the same? No. And there is many other things that one must consider: for example actors don't live forever, time changes, people have no power to argue against papers with rights so a mentality where people accept different characters as the same happen, etc​

But a version of a character is still said character.​

Dante is a version of Blade then. Because Blade uses guns, a sword, a long coat, half of A and B. Should we then start calling him Blade? Or are you thinking that name is what makes a version of a original character the same as the latter? Because if i for example make a new Mario, he's a popstar and is a girl with blonde hair, and then stamp the name "Mario" on her. How can the new Mario that's a female popstar be a version of Mario then? The only thing they share is name. Is it then right to say that DMC Dante is a version of D.C Dante?​

​

And this is certainly a similar situation than the one we are currently involved in. However, if Nintendo wanted to make this Mario imige you've descrived as the New and Improved S Mario Bros. it's their right. Their character, they can turn him in to an italian chef who looks like Gordon Ramsey if they so choose.​

But answer my question: If Nintendo makes a variant of Mario - would you in your mind picture Mario as a plumber with different look than original Mario? And if Nintendo did what you suggested - do you think many people would accept it just because of paper rights?​

That acctually might be the implication. It has been said that if this game bodes well it's the end of the original franchise.
Exactly.

Well, been simply born doesn't have as great a ring as been reborn, now does it. They're tryin' to sell a game here.
We are not here to discuss things in a business perspective. Don't you agree?

God! Why is everything been remade for the Twilight Generation? It's not that great! If you like Twilight, good for you, but that doesn't mean everything should turn into it!​

As i have said so many times - there is nothing wrong to make DmC character. But as a new character - not a copy of Dante.​

I would assume it's simply how they think DMC should be. Another developer with the same notion of making him 'cool' might want to make him in to a smooth, suave, hustler, or a fast talking, wise cracking cop who doesn't play by the rules.​

But Tameem agreed to that Dante no longer is cool, and that he needs to be updated so that he is cool. That is what he said and agreed to ok? But listen: I don't find DmC Dante cool. I found DMC Dante cool. Dante is no longer in cool in Tameem/Capcom's eyes. It's not a FACT - it's just a subjective opinion. Tameem don't find Dante cool. You may say "Capcom forced Ninja theory to change Dante", but Capcom wasn't the one who said "Dante 12 years ago is no longer cool". That was Tameem Antoniades.​

After all the talk about how Dante is no longer cool - and they make DmC Dante who many people would say isn't cool. So what was the point?​

I don't know... Maybe they're right. 12 years is a long time. I mean 12 years. Think about it, that's a decade and in this digital age that's even more than before. No matter how hard I think there is nothing that's more than 2 years old that's still cool. For example Bruce Lee isn't that cool anymore, with his bad ass fighting style that changed the world or his philosophy in fighting, martial arts or the limitless human potential. Cowboy Bebop isn't cool anymore ether, totally outdated, and so is Steve McQueen, and the Beattles, so's Queen, the Crow, Indiana Jones, Elvis Eron Presley, Kiss, Rolling Stones, Miles Davis, and I know that there are no movies that are older than 5 years that are in any way shape or form cool.​

But all things that stop being cool will die. It's no point to go and try to "update" it. What you should do instead if make something new that will be cool. A new character.​

Punk movement that has influenced DmC started in 1970s. 1970s! That's 41 years ago. The creation of Dante was 12 years ago.​

And smoking was considered cool in around same time.​

So let me sum it up: Tameem Antoniades said Dante is not cool because he's 12 years old character, but DmC Dante's inspiration (punk and smoking) is around 41 years old thing.​

And Berto your a intelligent guy - you know what smoking does to people. Bad skin, bad breath, etc. If Ninja theory is gonna go that road that "smoking is cool" - then why don't they also use their "great" story skills and include what smoking does to a human.​

​

You in England, mate? I hear it's more promenant over there. But I know where your comming from. The creator of Dante once said that if he couldn't make Dante cool without smoking then he wouldn't be cool smoking. It's what Capcom approved, it's what they claim will attract sales, it might work, it might not. We'll see,​

I am sorry - is England/UK only area that buys games and in particular DMC games? Because i thought games are bought all over the world. Don't mean anything bad with the tone i said what i said - i just wanted to use it as it's a good way to prove my point.​

Hmm. I suppose that's one way to look at it. But you see NT's impression of DMC is that it was made to reflect popular culture in it's time (I don't see it) and they want to use that formula to do the same with this 'update' of the series.​

They clearly have failed then. Because living in Scandinavia i don't find smoking cool, punks cool or the DmC Dante cool.​

I was going to post this on it's own thread but here's just as good. It's another interview he did:​

The interview shows how his attitude is towards DMC. He cares little about it.​

​

"When your favourite band starts to play a whole new genre you get upset".​

DmC is not a new genre - it's still a hack and slash. And DmC Dante is a copy of DMC Dante. How can he compare what he said to DmC?​

"But things have to change for the better sometimes and progress every now and then to survive and that is what Capcom asked us to do, to make it new and exciting."​

Yes, DMC is not exciting that's why so many players love Dante and the gameplay. Making new things in a game is something natural. You don't go make a sequel or a spiritual succesor to a game without new things.​

And yes *enter sarcasm* Enslaved and Heavenly sword was two great survivors. E3 DmC Dante was worst crap you could see. It was nowhere a change for the better. So Tameem don't know what his talking about. It's just all talk.​

You know how people make something new? You keep what's there already and improve the character - or make a totally new character. That's how. You don't go and copy a original - which is what Ninja theory have done with DmC Dante.​

If this picture is change for better - then i wonder what change for worse looks like:​

That's a somewhat fair statement, NT provably wouldn't like it if another studio were to re envision their work, but it's not entirely fair since I'm sure that there are a few people in the staff who are fans but Capcom demanded change and if it wasn't this then it'd be something else just as drastic. ​

​

It's COMPLETELY fair statement. You wanna know why i say that? Because it's one thing to change or make a new character because your employer demands, but another when you say "The original character from 12 years ago is no longer cool", and then go make a punk smoking drug addict looking guy from 1970s.​

People should show respect to others creations. And Ninja theory's Tameem have not done that with Dante.​

Yeah, there are more PC ways of saying that, but the games do have a very Japanese flare to them. Been a Bayonetta nut I do take offence to both those statements but the games have gotten pretty farfetched and Bayonetta is fairly nutty and silly. That doesn't mean that they should reboot, everyone wants to reboot these days, rather than trying harder the next time around they rather start with a clean slate.​

I don't like japanese art style much because i feel it doesn't feel right. Take Skyrim - if i was japanese final fantasy style i don't think i would get the middle age feel to it. I think this applies for horror games too - i think a realistic art style would go well with the horror atmosphere.​

But you don't see me saying japanese artstyle is absurd.​

​

​

​

​

​

​

 

[Vezild]

In this thread i hope that i can explain throughly why i dislike DmC and why others dislike it as well.

Let's start with looking at DMC to DMC 4 logos.

And DmC logo:

Have you noticed DmC is often called DMC 5 (with capital M and the number 5) - but the logo says only "DmC", and it stands for Devil May Cry not Devil May Cry 5.
This is a reason why people are annoyed. DmC is portrayed as a DMC game, and DMC 5, but at same time the logo is distancing DmC from all other DMC games.
Prince of Persia and Assassin's creed have MOST of same gameplay, and gameplay is what people often use as basis to call games a DMC game or not. Does that mean that Assassin's creed is actually a Prince of Persia game?
When thinking about it the lower case m could be because it was better than a capital M for the logo.
But i don't get it - is DmC = DMC 5 or is it DmC 1? If it's DMC 5 - where is the '5'?

TWO DIFFERENT CHARACTERS LOOKED AT AS ONE​

DmC Dante and DMC Dante is not the same characters. Of course DmC Dante is based off DMC Dante - but does that mean it's the same character? No.​

​

Let's take have a look at the two Dante:​

​

DmC Hair: White colour comes from demonic power.​

DMC Hair: White hair is a trait from father's human form.​

​

DmC Genes: Angel/Demon​

DMC Genes: Human/Demon​

​

These are two features that makes them different. And DmC is using DMC as template, that means that they are using ideas from DMC and applying it to DmC. Gameplay, enemies, powers etc.​

​

For example Assassins Creed used Prince of Persia as template. However, they both were portrayed and came out as two different games. But comparing AC to Prince of Persia one can easily say "Prince of Persia is AC's big brother".​

​

​

This guy below is Blade:​

​

​

He is half vampire, half human. He's a source of inspiration for DMC Dante. Because his name is not Dante, he's not half human/demon and has not white hair and light skin he can not be Dante. The differences distinguish Dante as Dante and Blade as Blade.

And as i pointed out with DmC and DMC Dante they have two important differences that makes both characters clash if one says "DmC Dante is DMC Dante".

Let's try a dialogue to illustrate my point further:

Person A: DmC Dante and DMC Dante is the same character dude.
Person B: How come his hair is not completely white, and why is white hair result of demon powers in DmC?

Person A: Because that's how Dante got white hair, he had black hair in beginning.
Person B: How come DMC Dante's father has white hair in human form, and no white hair in demon form?
Person A: Well...
Person B: And why is it that DMC Dante's white hair hasn't been told to be from his demon powers?
Person B: Uh...
Person A: And why is Devil May Cry Anime that Capcom supports showing a kid Dante with white hair? And what about the DMC 1 Sparda family concept art where two white hair babies are shown?

END OF DIALOGUE

See? The characters are clashing. They are not the same characters. Since DmC Dante is copying DMC Dante (which is in reality what it is) it makes DmC Dante a version of DMC Dante.

If Nintendo made a new Mario:​

He is now a car mechanic. His eyes are green, he has no mustache, and wears a orange cap.​

Would you seriously think of this new guy as Mario? Just because his name is the same? Or would you think "It's another Mario" as in real life "There are more than one people named X". So two individuals with same name but at same time not the same person.​

​

Despite being two different characters they are talked about as the same by Game sites and the developers.​

​

​

REBORN OR NOT?​

​

In a story context a individual is reborn through incarnation or ressurction. In order to be able to say "He's been REBORN" the person who comes back to life must have lived and died. In a game context a new character can only be a reborn form of a other character if the original character dies - as in no longer seen in games in future. For example DMC and DMC Dante must die before it's appropriate to say "Dante has been reborn in DmC". And by saying the reborn line it means an end to original game and it's character.​

​

Because then your saying "Ok, original character and new character are the same, but the new one is a rebirth of original character".​

​

But Capcom hasn't expressed that DmC will replace or carry on the legacy of DMC. So DMC and Dante isn't dead, therefor DmC Dante isn't reborn. He is simply born.​

​

DANTE IS NO LONGER COOL​

Yes, you heard that right. Dante from DMC is no longer cool - that's why he needs a update so that this generation gamers find him cool. It seems the idea is to make DmC's character more relateable. So that players can say "Oh that guy looks like us in a way! He has issues like me!". And notice that Tameem Antoniades who said this shows us that they indeed hoped people would take DmC Dante as DMC Dante. But people rejected DmC Dante as same as DMC Dante.​

Ninja theory was not responsible for a new character - it's Capcom. But note Capcom never was spesific about how the new "Dante" should be like. If Capcom were spesific and said "Ninja theory make Dante into a punk who smokes, has black hair etc", then why did they tell Ninja theory "Just go for it" (as in go all out on a change)?​

​

Then comes the question by whos standards is a punk smoker who looks all dirty and beat up cool? How did Ninja theory gain the knowledge "Yes, this is what's cool nowdays". Because remember Ninja theory said "Dante is no longer cool - what was cool 12 years ago is no longer cool".​

​

You know what they did? This:​

1:46 Notice how he's making love to his cigarette​

​

When fans saw this they went berserk. When i saw it three things bothered me 1) smoke 2) white hair 3) drug look. Don't misunderstand me i don't mind black hair but the "white hair is demon power result" is just crap. And i live in year 2011 and i can tell you i have not ONCE heard anyone say "Smoking is cool" , and VERY rarely see a punk looking person.​

​

Let me remind you again - they took a hit at DMC Dante and said he was no longer cool- and that he was outdated: but they took inspiration from Punk movement and the "smoking is cool" from old days. These two things were popular somewhere between 1970s-1990s (roughly guess). But what year are we in? 2011.​

WHAT IS COOL IN 2000-2011?​

That's what Ninja theory should have found out. You see the hypocrisy? Bash DMC Dante because he's 12 years old, and then go and use inspiration from decades ago.​

​

I believe that they really stepped on DMC Dante. They have used him as advertisement as well. Because let's be realistic DmC Dante is not DMC Dante, so why call him the same? Is the name Dante any cool nowdays to youths? Is the name Dante a relateable one - since Ninja theory is focusing so much on portraying DmC Dante as a realistic person.​

​

STEPPING ON FANS & DMC​

​

We as fans are attatched to Dante. We love the guy right? Of course he has flaws but the positive things by him makes us think "That guy is my buddy!". Or if your a fanboy/girl lover lol. So even though Capcom owes DMC when we fans see change to this character we are saddened. As a Dante fan i rather see him be terminated than see a version of him that's not him. Ninja theory and Alex jones laughed when white hair was brought up during interviews. Again - laughed.​

​

I wonder how Ninja theory would feel if we touched Nariko, Trip or Monkey? Would they still laugh? No - because they aren't Dante fans. The DmC project is just a side thing for them that grants them money. And that's fine - but if your gonna be making the next game of a game serie at least be decent human being and show respect to the game character and fans.​

​

You know what Tameem said about Bayonetta? A japanese art style game - "It's very japanesy and for THAT absurd style it does it very well."​

DMC 2-4 has been japanesy. That shows you his attitude towards DMC art style. Honestly? I find Ninja theory's realistic DmC really great - but to call japanese art style absurd is just rude. DMC 1 is favourite of all DMC to me because among the reasons is the art style.​

​

My wrist hurts now - i will stop. I hope that you guys found this thread worth reading.

Well now I've finally glimpsed into the mind that is CoolDemon's xD
I believe most of the things here are opinions, which I'm sure you're trying to point out. But I also feel that some of these reasons are insignificant. For example, Tameem called Japanese absurd. Now, absurd can be a good thing, actually. And if it isn't, that isn't rude. Rude is if he called it crap and kicked a cardboard cutout of Bayonetta in the head and said "YOU SEE THIS??? THIS SUCKS!" Now that's rude...and insane But to say that it's merely absurd is fine really. It's his opinion and the subject of the conversation was probably about why the Western move, anyway. "So why the Western move?"

"Because the Japanese look is a little absurd." OPINION! Not a blatant insult.

I'd like to point out your paragraph on how Ninja theory would react if "we touched Nariko, Trip, or Monkey". I don't think they'd really do anything. I'm sure there are loads of forums that already bastardize their IP's, and that's fine. They can't do anything about it.
Also, I feel you're being overly dramatic with your "at least be decent human beings and show respect to the game character and fans". What respect? Who is due respect here? A virtual man made out of wireframes and expensive animations? A split up fan base that can't decide which game is really the best? You say DMC 1 is the best (which I respect...even though I've never gotten the chance to play it XD). A lot say DMC 2 was the best. A lot say DMC 3 was the best. A lot say DMC 4 was the best.
Thing is the entire fan base is split. There is no base. None of us can truthfully use the word "we". Because if you use the word "we" you're including me and Asmo and berto and choco--to name a few--and loads of other fans on this forum in your opinions (which, again, I respect because, really, I can't hate you for not liking DmC!) about this new game. Now, I'm sure you meant the people against DmC in the usage of the word "we", but I just feel I should point that out.
Now, back to the respect thing. Nobody is due any respect here. Nobody is going to be catered because "Oh, how cruel you developers are!" They're doing their job, and that's that.

Now, neoDante (DmC) is named Dante and is treated the same as origiDante (DMC 1-4) because, to put it plainly, Ninja Theory (or Capcom) said so. Could be that there's similarities. Could be because this is a reboot (or retelling or rehash or parallel universe or whatever) so this is the Dante of this universe, and there's a Dante for another universe and a Dante for another. They are not related in any way save for the name and some abilities (which are thrown in for gameplay, not for story). So to say that neoDante is not origiDante is true in that they are not related, not in that he is nothing like him--which is indirectly true.

On the Capcom being specific part--no, they probably weren't. They probably just say "As different as possible." So Ninja Theory threw in what they think is a different Dante. It isn't an injustice of social order. It's a creative decision that some people don't like. Again, I like it. And I liked origiDante's look, too. I don't have to choose in between.
Now what you said about the punk movement of the 80's and smoking thing are very interesting That is a major loophole in logic right there that I did not notice at all. Of course, who's to say there aren't any punks today? And who's to say smoking still isn't huge? They both still exist today, and they both are a little influential in the world. Personally, I'd call myself a bit of a punk (not a smoker...smoking looks cool, but it kills ya).


neoDante is considered the rebirth of origiDante because...well what are we focusing on here? The new guy or the old one? It's like God and Jesus. God was reborn as Jesus. Did God vanish? Nope. All of our focus was just put on Jesus.


Now I'm getting tired. I'd post more, but ehhh, you get my point xD Interesting read, nonetheless, CoolDemon.

 

[Asmodaius]

Well now I've finally glimpsed into the mind that is CoolDemon's xD
I believe most of the things here are opinions, which I'm sure you're trying to point out. But I also feel that some of these reasons are insignificant. For example, Tameem called Japanese absurd. Now, absurd can be a good thing, actually. And if it isn't, that isn't rude. Rude is if he called it crap and kicked a cardboard cutout of Bayonetta in the head and said "YOU SEE THIS??? THIS SUCKS!" Now that's rude...and insane But to say that it's merely absurd is fine really. It's his opinion and the subject of the conversation was probably about why the Western move, anyway. "So why the Western move?"

"Because the Japanese look is a little absurd." OPINION! Not a blatant insult.

I'd like to point out your paragraph on how Ninja theory would react if "we touched Nariko, Trip, or Monkey". I don't think they'd really do anything. I'm sure there are loads of forums that already bastardize their IP's, and that's fine. They can't do anything about it.
Also, I feel you're being overly dramatic with your "at least be decent human beings and show respect to the game character and fans". What respect? Who is due respect here? A virtual man made out of wireframes and expensive animations? A split up fan base that can't decide which game is really the best? You say DMC 1 is the best (which I respect...even though I've never gotten the chance to play it XD). A lot say DMC 2 was the best. A lot say DMC 3 was the best. A lot say DMC 4 was the best.
Thing is the entire fan base is split. There is no base. None of us can truthfully use the word "we". Because if you use the word "we" you're including me and Asmo and berto and choco--to name a few--and loads of other fans on this forum in your opinions (which, again, I respect because, really, I can't hate you for not liking DmC!) about this new game. Now, I'm sure you meant the people against DmC in the usage of the word "we", but I just feel I should point that out.
Now, back to the respect thing. Nobody is due any respect here. Nobody is going to be catered because "Oh, how cruel you developers are!" They're doing their job, and that's that.

Now, neoDante (DmC) is named Dante and is treated the same as origiDante (DMC 1-4) because, to put it plainly, Ninja Theory (or Capcom) said so. Could be that there's similarities. Could be because this is a reboot (or retelling or rehash or parallel universe or whatever) so this is the Dante of this universe, and there's a Dante for another universe and a Dante for another. They are not related in any way save for the name and some abilities (which are thrown in for gameplay, not for story). So to say that neoDante is not origiDante is true in that they are not related, not in that he is nothing like him--which is indirectly true.

On the Capcom being specific part--no, they probably weren't. They probably just say "As different as possible." So Ninja Theory threw in what they think is a different Dante. It isn't an injustice of social order. It's a creative decision that some people don't like. Again, I like it. And I liked origiDante's look, too. I don't have to choose in between.
Now what you said about the punk movement of the 80's and smoking thing are very interesting That is a major loophole in logic right there that I did not notice at all. Of course, who's to say there aren't any punks today? And who's to say smoking still isn't huge? They both still exist today, and they both are a little influential in the world. Personally, I'd call myself a bit of a punk (not a smoker...smoking looks cool, but it kills ya).


neoDante is considered the rebirth of origiDante because...well what are we focusing on here? The new guy or the old one? It's like God and Jesus. God was reborn as Jesus. Did God vanish? Nope. All of our focus was just put on Jesus.


Now I'm getting tired. I'd post more, but ehhh, you get my point xD Interesting read, nonetheless, CoolDemon.

Nice to see someone who can make of an opinion for what it is instead of bloating it out of proportion.
I liked reading this. ^^

 

[CoolDemon]

Well now I've finally glimpsed into the mind that is CoolDemon's xD
I believe most of the things here are opinions, which I'm sure you're trying to point out. But I also feel that some of these reasons are insignificant. For example, Tameem called Japanese absurd. Now, absurd can be a good thing, actually. And if it isn't, that isn't rude. Rude is if he called it crap and kicked a cardboard cutout of Bayonetta in the head and said "YOU SEE THIS??? THIS SUCKS!" Now that's rude...and insane But to say that it's merely absurd is fine really. It's his opinion and the subject of the conversation was probably about why the Western move, anyway. "So why the Western move?"
I am just saying calling it absurd is crossing a line. But i suppose it's not so important.

"Because the Japanese look is a little absurd." OPINION! Not a blatant insult.

I'd like to point out your paragraph on how Ninja theory would react if "we touched Nariko, Trip, or Monkey". I don't think they'd really do anything. I'm sure there are loads of forums that already bastardize their IP's, and that's fine. They can't do anything about it.
First of all i have not seen any pictures of Nariko, Trip or Monkey being made fun of. And there is a difference between making fun of a character, and OFFICALLY changing a character. For example if a new developer studio got handed Heavenly Sword - they change Nariko alot. Then that's what i mean. Until then you can't say how Ninja theory will feel about it. It hasn't happened. But i assure you they won't be happy.

Also, I feel you're being overly dramatic with your "at least be decent human beings and show respect to the game character and fans". What respect? Who is due respect here? A virtual man made out of wireframes and expensive animations? A split up fan base that can't decide which game is really the best? You say DMC 1 is the best (which I respect...even though I've never gotten the chance to play it XD). A lot say DMC 2 was the best. A lot say DMC 3 was the best. A lot say DMC 4 was the best.
Thing is the entire fan base is split. There is no base. None of us can truthfully use the word "we". Because if you use the word "we" you're including me and Asmo and berto and choco--to name a few--and loads of other fans on this forum in your opinions (which, again, I respect because, really, I can't hate you for not liking DmC!) about this new game. Now, I'm sure you meant the people against DmC in the usage of the word "we", but I just feel I should point that out.
Now, back to the respect thing. Nobody is due any respect here. Nobody is going to be catered because "Oh, how cruel you developers are!" They're doing their job, and that's that.
How is it necessary to say that Dante that was created around a decade ago is no longer cool? He's is cool. And they talked about "updating" Dante, and they created DmC Dante, a character that is PROBABLY only cool in UK because afterall the punk movement started there. Not that i find him cool - a beat up smoker ain't cool. And the fact that he's a copy of Dante...
I like Devil May Cry 1, 2, 3 and 4. Whichever i like the most is opinion. I like them all because 2-4 has good gameplay and preserved Dante as he looks like. Because let's face it DMC characters was never in depth characters. There is Ninja theory fans, DMC fans, and causal gamers who are fan of DmC. I think many DMC fans have decided to not buy DmC. DmC fans will be 1) Ninja theory fans 2) causal gamers 3) DMC fans.




Now, neoDante (DmC) is named Dante and is treated the same as origiDante (DMC 1-4) because, to put it plainly, Ninja Theory (or Capcom) said so. Could be that there's similarities. Could be because this is a reboot (or retelling or rehash or parallel universe or whatever) so this is the Dante of this universe, and there's a Dante for another universe and a Dante for another. They are not related in any way save for the name and some abilities (which are thrown in for gameplay, not for story). So to say that neoDante is not origiDante is true in that they are not related, not in that he is nothing like him--which is indirectly true.
I am just saying that X is not Y. And that they should be treated that way. That is all. But Capcom and Ninja theory having been milking Dante character to draw attention to DmC and it's Dante.


On the Capcom being specific part--no, they probably weren't. They probably just say "As different as possible." So Ninja Theory threw in what they think is a different Dante. It isn't an injustice of social order. It's a creative decision that some people don't like. Again, I like it. And I liked origiDante's look, too. I don't have to choose in between.
Now what you said about the punk movement of the 80's and smoking thing are very interesting That is a major loophole in logic right there that I did not notice at all. Of course, who's to say there aren't any punks today? And who's to say smoking still isn't huge? They both still exist today, and they both are a little influential in the world. Personally, I'd call myself a bit of a punk (not a smoker...smoking looks cool, but it kills ya).
There is every kind of people in our world. But i highly doubt punks and punk movement is considered cool by youths because it started in 1970s. We are in year 2011. As for smoking i have yet to see someone say outloud "Smoking is cool" or read it for that matter. Am i saying that punks can't be cool? No, i am saying that punks in year 2011 is most likely not looked at as cool. And smoking is DEFINTLY not cool.
But Ninja theory talked about how they will update Dante to be cool in the time it's released (2011), and yet they went and made DmC Dante a punk looking person and a smoker. E3 DmC Dante is the ugliest character i have ever seen. The current DmC Dante is ok - do i find him ugly? No. But i don't find him cool because he's copying Dante, and that's where coolness of DmC Dante comes from. If you took away the demon powers, the sword and the guns and the name Dante - would you still find him cool? Look at this picture - do you find him cool?
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...65865806_175325335866839_446046_1941108_n.jpg

And creativity isn't about undermining a other character. It's about making a new character or making a established character go through a transition of artstyle.


neoDante is considered the rebirth of origiDante because...well what are we focusing on here? The new guy or the old one? It's like God and Jesus. God was reborn as Jesus. Did God vanish? Nope. All of our focus was just put on Jesus.

Again if DmC Dante is a rebirth - then that means that DMC games including DMC Dante will be put aside, and not seen until Capcom gets desperate and plays on "Dante is back guys! Buy our game!". But i repeat: If on DmC box it says "Dante has been reborn" or "Dante is back and is new and fresh!" then that pretty much means DMC Dante is done for.


Now I'm getting tired. I'd post more, but ehhh, you get my point xD Interesting read, nonetheless, CoolDemon.
Yeah i know what you mean

 

[GamblingGambitCloud]

you're just playing a lot on phonetics and taking everything literally. Stop doing that. Stop looking for loopholes in the way a person talks or the way they say their words. This is happening whether you want it to or not, just accept it. Dislike it if you want, but it's no use saying the same thing over and over trying to convince everyone to change their minds about it. Stop beating the already dead horse.

 

[berto]

I'm not going to get into a long string of responces, I'll only reply to a few things.​

​

​

Like here.​

When I said:​

I don't know... Maybe they're right. 12 years is a long time. I mean 12 years. Think about it, that's a decade and in this digital age that's even more than before. No matter how hard I think there is nothing that's more than 2 years old that's still cool. For example Bruce Lee isn't that cool anymore, with his bad ass fighting style that changed the world or his philosophy in fighting, martial arts or the limitless human potential. Cowboy Bebop isn't cool anymore ether, totally outdated, and so is Steve McQueen, and the Beattles, so's Queen, the Crow, Indiana Jones, Elvis Eron Presley, Kiss, Rolling Stones, Miles Davis, and I know that there are no movies that are older than 5 years that are in any way shape or form cool.

And you responded:

But all things that stop being cool will die. It's no point to go and try to "update" it. What you should do instead if make something new that will be cool. A new character.

Punk movement that has influenced DmC started in 1970s. 1970s! That's 41 years ago. The creation of Dante was 12 years ago.​

And smoking was considered cool in around same time.​

So let me sum it up: Tameem Antoniades said Dante is not cool because he's 12 years old character, but DmC Dante's inspiration (punk and smoking) is around 41 years old thing.​

And Berto your a intelligent guy - you know what smoking does to people. Bad skin, bad breath, etc. If Ninja theory is gonna go that road that "smoking is cool" - then why don't they also use their "great" story skills and include what smoking does to a human.​

​

I think you might've not gotten the ozzing sliming sarcasm dripping from my every word off that statement. If something is cool it stays cool, I don't care if it's 500 years old or 6000, bad ass is bad ass. Look at Tarantino's two jewels from the early and mid 90's, Pulp Fiction and Resevoir Dogs. The Crow is still one of the greatest action movies ever. Leon: The Professional, Hard Boiled, Desperado, Lock Stock and two Smocking Berrels, Fight Club, Trainspoting. What do all these movies have in common, they're cool, they're are dripping with it, it's rediculious, and they are well passed the 10 year mark, but they are still bad ass, they are so bad ass it's gross, and these are only the ones of the top of my head. To top it off that's just movies, there is still music, people, cars, and whole lot of other things that just don't stop.


PS: I smoke, but that doesn't mean I want Dante to smoke, it's not in the spirit of his character, doesn't really strike me odd or unhealthy if characters smoke. Look at Spike Spigel, he smokes, alot, like a hell of a lot, but the theme of his story is noir and jazz and smoking goes perfectly with those themes and him as a character. So it's not as if I'm against characters smoking, I'm just against them smoking just to be cool, it's phony and a bit lazzy.

Dante is a version of Blade then.

No, the film version of Blade is a version of the Blade and Dante isn't trying to be him, or cobra for that matter. His creation was inspired by them but he is not them nor does he try to be. This new Dante is the same as the original Dante the same way the 2002 version of Spider-Man if the same as the 2012 version of Spider-Man, even more so with this new Spider-Man been so emo and Twilight generation looking. It's not complicated, don't know why I have to throw so many examples.

Anyway, I will not make long responces to this anymore, I told you my possition and opinion on your thoughts and I responded. I replied to the points I felt I failed to make but that's as far I'm taking this. My reasons for disaproving of this new title are somewhat different from yours but I do want you to know that I understad where you are comming from.​

 

[CoolDemon]

The only thing you use as argument for why DmC Dante is DMC Dante is the rights Capcom has. And i did say let's not include rights into it. So if we put rights aside - it's obvious DmC Dante is not DMC Dante but a new character.

And that's how i see it. I don't accept this much difference in characters just because piece of paper orders me to. For example if Nintendo made Mario into a female popstar, and "she" now uses a microphone as her weapon. Would people accept that?
No, and "paper rights" will not have any value in making people accept that. Because it will not be the same character - so people will reject it.
So if in a situation like that people will reject such character to be the same as real Mario - then 1) why should we accept this DmC Dante as Dante? 2) Then how "valueable" is this paper rights if you can't do that.

It's not that i can't accept DmC character as a DMC character. It's that i will not accept him as Dante. Because Dante is marked in my mind with a white haired, red coat, half demon and half human. Even if i don't like Dante from DMC - that will still be Dante to me.

In a Millionaire game - when the host asks question "How does Mario look like?":
People won't think of the new Mario if one has been made. They will say "Mario has red cap with a M on it, black hair and a moustache. He has blue clothes and is a plumber".

 

[GamblingGambitCloud]

The only thing you use as argument for why DmC Dante is DMC Dante is the rights Capcom has. And i did say let's not include rights into it. So if we put rights aside - it's obvious DmC Dante is not DMC Dante but a new character.

And that's how i see it. I don't accept this much difference in characters just because piece of paper orders me to. For example if Nintendo made Mario into a female popstar, and "she" now uses a microphone as her weapon. Would people accept that?
No, and "paper rights" will not have any value in making people accept that. Because it will not be the same character - so people will reject it.
So if in a situation like that people will reject such character to be the same as real Mario - then 1) why should we accept this DmC Dante as Dante? 2) Then how "valueable" is this paper rights if you can't do that.

It's not that i can't accept DmC character as a DMC character. It's that i will not accept him as Dante. Because Dante is marked in my mind with a white haired, red coat, half demon and half human. Even if i don't like Dante from DMC - that will still be Dante to me.

In a Millionaire game - when the host asks question "How does Mario look like?":
People won't think of the new Mario if one has been made. They will say "Mario has red cap with a M on it, black hair and a moustache. He has blue clothes and is a plumber".

1) They're not changing the gender or profession of Dante 2) There are many incarnations of most characters including Bruce Wayne (notice how I DID NOT use Batman), Peter Parker, Link, etc. 3) They have already changed Mario's profession and clothes, so that argument is irrelevant (He was originally a carpenter and he wore green with red overalls) 4) They are not changing Dante's style 5) He acts the same pretty much, the only thing that makes him "different" is the smoking and his face...That's it....now, there are ****tons of worse things in the world, just let this one die already...we see where you're coming from, stop overreacting.

 

[Asmodaius]

Well, we haven't seen Dante smoke since the first trailer. Maybe they had second thoughts about it and took that out, so still counting that as something that is part of DmC Dante is yet to be seen.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with GGC. Some don't see the two Dante's as the same characters, others do. Trying to convince one another about who is right and who is wrong is silly though, as no one is right and no one is wrong about it.

I still feel that he's the same Dante, but set in a parellel universe, but we've already been through that SO many times. The topic is like beating a dead horse now. There's no point in discussing it anymore, so it would be better if you just agree to disagree. Because neither of you will be able to convince the other that you're right.

It's really not that big a deal.

 

[CoolDemon]

1) They're not changing the gender or profession of Dante 2) There are many incarnations of most characters including Bruce Wayne (notice how I DID NOT use Batman), Peter Parker, Link, etc. 3) They have already changed Mario's profession and clothes, so that argument is irrelevant (He was originally a carpenter and he wore green with red overalls) 4) They are not changing Dante's style 5) He acts the same pretty much, the only thing that makes him "different" is the smoking and his face...That's it....now, there are ****tons of worse things in the world, just let this one die already...we see where you're coming from, stop overreacting.

Just hair and smoking?
1) Devil trigger is white super saiyan with red coat
2) Angel, Human and Demon?
3) White hair comes from demon powers...
4) Smoking
5) Hair

He's not Dante - he's a copy. Just like DMC 2, 3 and 4. But DMC 2, 3 and 4 is appropriate to call by the name Dante because in contrast to DmC Dante they actually are how DMC 1 Dante is. Half demon, half human, a demon form, white hair.

As for Mario i was using it as a point. Would people accept such change today? And paper won't help you:

So Mario has changed his clothes over the year - so what? That's NATURAL change. But Mario still is the same guy. And this is what's so great about Mario. Throughout years his character has been pretty much preserved. And he's even been made new and exciting.

As for movies and Bruce Wayne. Actors die - characters don't die. That's the difference. And in hollywood movie industry they milk everything. Because there is fans who can't let go of something they like die. And that's what hollywood industry sees and capitalizes on for money.
When Assassin's Creed story is over - shall we milk it more or shall we let it die out as a great game in the industry?
Why make a DMC movie when DMC games have the story? DMC movie thats coming is based off DmC if what i read was true - but Ninja theory being so great with graphics and story - why is a movie needed? Money.
Why was a Prince of Persia movie made? Money.
Why will there be made a Assassin's Creed movie ? Money.

And Batman and Spiderman and Superman movies are done constantly every 5-10 years. It's not incarnations - it's just hollywood movie industry milking movies as usual.
That is the reason why movie retcons exist - and that is why it is becoming moer common in Gaming industry. It's not because they want to make a great movie to share with everyone.

Prince of Persia experience made Ubisoft create >Assassin's Creed.
Demon's Souls became > Dark Souls
Elder scrolls up became to > Skyrim

Time allowed Skyrim, Dark Souls and Assassin's Creed to become great. Because in time the game developers/producers went through different games of the same. And then they used all the knowledge from previous games and applied it to the newest game.

And great things take time. That is a fact. But instead of making another great movie or story or character - they go back on something that's been from before. A Batman, A superman, A Spiderman etc

Mario like i said is a flexible character. He has become a character that can be put in many games. Mario Kart, Mario Party, etc
And it's successful. They kept the same Mario but also made him new and exciting.

 

[GamblingGambitCloud]

Just hair and smoking?
1) Devil trigger is white super saiyan with red coat
2) Angel, Human and Demon?
3) White hair comes from demon powers...
4) Smoking
5) Hair

He's not Dante - he's a copy. Just like DMC 2, 3 and 4. But DMC 2, 3 and 4 is appropriate to call by the name Dante because in contrast to DmC Dante they actually are how DMC 1 Dante is. Half demon, half human, a demon form, white hair.

As for Mario i was using it as a point. Would people accept such change today? And paper won't help you:

So Mario has changed his clothes over the year - so what? That's NATURAL change. But Mario still is the same guy. And this is what's so great about Mario. Throughout years his character has been pretty much preserved. And he's even been made new and exciting.



And Batman and Spiderman and Superman movies are done constantly every 5-10 years. It's not incarnations - it's just hollywood movie industry milking movies as usual.
That is the reason why movie retcons exist - and that is why it is becoming moer common in Gaming industry. It's not because they want to make a great movie to share with everyone.

I was talking about the comics, NOT the movies. I like how you twist it to fit your point though. And Mario's change from what he originally was is EXACTLY the same as this situation. If you're going to compare apples and oranges, thoroughly do so.

 

[CoolDemon]

I was talking about the comics, NOT the movies. I like how you twist it to fit your point though. And Mario's change from what he originally was is EXACTLY the same as this situation. If you're going to compare apples and oranges, thoroughly do so.

Mario going from carpenter to plumber works. You wanna know why? Because it's a change that's appropriate.
DmC Dante being angel, demon and human from DMC Dante being human and demon don't work.

A apple will be a apple, a pear will be a pear and a human will be human, and that will never change.
And Dante is half human and half demon - and that will never change.
However, Mario changing profession can change.
Mario changing clothes can change.

And if you look at Mario's evolution he's still a human, and he looks the same in all of the Mario games.

Comics are made tons of. What makes a comic fiction and what makes it not fiction in context to a already estalished comic? Just piece of papers?

CLOUD STRIFE CHARACTERS​

The character of "Cloud Strife" is preserved.

 

[Asmodaius]

My turn, my turn!

I'll use my favourite Marvel character as an example: Psylocke!

In the original X-Men series, Psylocke starts out as a British white woman with telepathic and telekinetic abilities. However, she is caught by the Japanese ninja clan called The Hand and her mind was transferred into another woman's body, Kwannon, who was a master assassin. Psylocke has been looking like an Asian woman since and has learned to combine her powers with her newly obtained martial arts prowess while joining the X-Men.

​

In the third movie X-Men: The Last Stand, Psylocke appears as an Asian/American girl who is part of an underground mutant society with no affiliation to the X-Men what so ever, but joins Magneto and the Brotherhood to fight humankind who tries to oppose the mutants by infiltrating a secluded laboratory where some scientist are trying to make a "cure" for the mutant-gene. The only power she ever shows is her shadowmelting in which she is able to travel from shadow to shadow, a power she also has in her original appearance in the comics.​

​

​

In the latest cartoon series called Wolverine and the X-Men, Psylocke appears as an Asian woman with a British accent, and again she has no affiliation to the X-Men... hell, she doesn't even seem to have any ninja training what so ever, as she is in this appearance strictly a telepath asked to help the Brotherhood.​

​

...​

​

Another favorite of mine is Mystique. While in the movies she is Magneto's right hand woman, his bodyguard, lover, assassin and spy, then in the comics she isn't really affiliated with him at all. She's only met him a few times and certainly does not have the same close relationship to him like she has in the movies.​

​

But why are these appearances considered acceptable by the fans of Marvel? Because they aren't happening in the same worlds. They are considered parallel worlds, yet they are still considered to be the same characters.​

 

[GamblingGambitCloud]

^Asmo perfectly described what I was trying to say. And how is going from a carpenter to a plumber more logical? Personally I find it just as insulting, Nintendo can't make a compelling story for carpenters? See, but it makes sense in story and context. BTW, unless Mario found some way to NOT age at all OR it's a parallel universe, it can't be the same Mario because that's DK's father in the original game, and if he's racing against DK, well, you get the point. BUT IT MAKES SENSE IN GAMEPLAY AND CONTEXT! That's what I'm saying about DmC!

 

[Asmodaius]

^Asmo perfectly described what I was trying to say. And how is going from a carpenter to a plumber more logical? Personally I find it just as insulting, Nintendo can't make a compelling story for carpenters? See, but it makes sense in story and context. BTW, unless Mario found some way to NOT age at all OR it's a parallel universe, it can't be the same Mario because that's DK's father in the original game, and if he's racing against DK, well, you get the point. BUT IT MAKES SENSE IN GAMEPLAY AND CONTEXT! That's what I'm saying about DmC!

Yeah, after all that jumping around all those years, Mario would now be an old man with back problems and sore feet. But because storyline doesn't matter in a game such as Super Mario, then it doesn't matter if Mario age or not. He's simply the avatar you use to complete the game.

However, the new Sonic Generations game is making a statement, actually. Sonic has been somewhat more storyline-centered than Super Mario ever was, and in Sonic Generations they actually have the original Sonic meet with the newer Sonic through dimensional portals.

So these two Sonic's:

​

- are actually two different persons from each their parallel worlds, like DMC Dante and DmC Dante, yet they are still the same character... Like Dante!​

 

[ToCool74]

uhhhh no.

It was revealed in Sonic Generations that one is just past and one is present. So their situation is completely different than this one with the 2 dantes.

I think you described it best with the X men comparison and should have just stuck with that.

 

[CoolDemon]

Honestly i don't need to discuss with you two (Asmo and GGC). I only choose to because you initiated me into a discussion.
So i will just ignore you two from her on. Not as in ignore option, but simply human ignoring.

 

[Asmodaius]

uhhhh no.

It was revealed in Sonic Generations that one is just past and one is present. So their situation is completely different than this one with the 2 dantes.

I think you described it best with the X men comparison and should have just stuck with that.

Ooooh, I didn't get that from the review from Gametrailers. Well, nevermind then. ^^'

Just pay attention to the X-Men part then! *cough cough*

Honestly i don't need to discuss with you two (Asmo and GGC). I only choose to because you initiated me into a discussion.
So i will just ignore you two from her on. Not as in ignore option, but simply human ignoring.

Hehe, funny that we come up with some viable points, and then you just choose to ignore us instead of trying to be open-minded.