Why the hate?

[TWOxACROSS]

@TWOxACROSS
The regression of DMC4 Dante's personality I think was because DMC3 Dante was received so great, so Capcom probably wanted to repeat the formula to help sales. Numbers were great... opinions were divided.

Yeah, definitely. It just gets strange when you put the personalities in order for a universe timeline.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

DmC didn't existed before they adressed NT. It was clearly stated that they were making plans for DMC5, but since itsuno was on Dragons Dogma + they wanted to expand audience they wanted to try western approach. DmC was never would have been made inside Capcom.

Where. Is. Your. Source. On. This? You can't complain to no end about me not being able to provide a source, and then not provide one for what you're saying...

 

[Lord Nero]

New Dante being mostly the same as old Dante (whoever that is, as there were multiple versions of him) is also just an opinion. It depends on your point of view, I guess. I remember arguing (a LONG time ago) that I don't find DmC Dante very similar to DMC3 Dante at all, if that's the version you mean (don't exactly feel like reiterating, as that would take a long-ass time and everybody should know my stance on him). Basically, almost everything we're saying here in this thread is a personal opinion... kind of silly to argue over it.

 

[Innsmouth]

Where. Is. Your. Source. On. This? You can't complain to no end about me not being able to provide a source, and then not provide one for what you're saying...

Well since when do YOU need source Considering everything you said don't have it either, I think everyone can freely disregard everything you said according to your own logic

 

[Lord Nero]

Well since when do YOU need source Considering everything you said don't have it either, I think everyone can freely disregard everything you said according to your own logic

Uh, despite his lack of sources, the standard for debates is still to present sources, or at least well-founded opinions. The rules haven't changed just because one person can't stick to the rules right now. Just like you can disregard his posts, so he can disregard yours.

 

[Innsmouth]

Uh, despite his lack of sources, the standard for debates is still to present sources, or at least well-founded opinions. The rules haven't changed just because one person can't stick to the rules right now.

Unless they've been throwing around as opinion. One cannot claim facts without sources, and than turn around and demand same from others. It's double-standards at best.

 

[Chancey289]

New Dante being mostly the same as old Dante (whoever that is, as there were multiple versions of him) is also just an opinion. It depends on your point of view, I guess. I remember arguing (a LONG time ago) that I don't find DmC Dante very similar to DMC3 Dante at all, if that's the version you mean (don't exactly feel like reiterating, as that would take a long-ass time and everybody should know my stance on him). Basically, almost everything we're saying here in this thread is a personal opinion... kind of silly to argue over it.

Because DMC 3 Dante is a wannabe ninja turtle who thinks he's cooler than he actually is. He's kinda just a dork lol.

But what makes Dante Dante at his core? A supernatural dual gun slinging a$$ kicker with a big sword, who talks a lot of smack to demons and spouts the occasional one liners. Are you gonna say DmC Dante didn't do that?

He really is not that different from what Dante basically is at his core. He's just also a more every man down to Earth hero this time around instead of being so flamboyant and dorky, which was the intention. And you can't deny that the character to begin with, is about as complex as a coloring book.

You don't need a lot to basically create a Dante.

 

[LordOfDarkness]

Let me get this straight. DmC Dante is technically Dante 6.0? If you consider Dante's Anime version.

Yes, LoD here. Sure, there is some sarcasm in what I write.

 

[Innsmouth]

All qualities DmC and DMC share are pretty vague though. Loved fighting? Well in franchises like sengoku basara there are few fighting loving characters yet they all different. Loved drinking? Says even less about similarities. They do have major differences. Original Dante was fond of humanity, while DmC one was pretty uncaring throughout whole game, except one single person. Original Dante was laid back and calm most of the time, while DmC Dante was bratty and easily angered. List can go on forever. In the end DMC1,3,4 Dantes have much more in common than DmC with any of them :/

 

[Chancey289]

The post above shows how little some people on this forum understands the plot of even a fairly simple and straightforward story like DmC.

Dante did give a crap about humanity. He's not heartless. Sure, he was never the most eager to play hero because he was just trying to survive in a demented world that antagonized him for reasons he didn't understand, but once he found out his lineage and what his life meant, he found reasons to attempt to change the world.

Dante still in DmC shared the same ideal every Dante has always shared, that was to figh the good fight against oppression. It's why his sword is named Rebellion.

Dante was a troubled youth alone in a harsh environment, but he's not a sociopath. He was just kind of a punk who never had a life of luxury or friends and family turned superhero.

 

[Ruisu]

Dante in DmC is almost the same Dante as in most of DMC3, only with more anger towards demons, as you can see his cursing shows up mostly just when demons are around.
But that's mostly because Dante in DmC doesn't have as much backstory as in DMC3. DmC is a beginning for Dante as a character, while DMC3 is not as much as a beginning, but a build up to a established character, the Dante of DMC1.

But if you isolate "Dante", DmC and DMC3 have really, reaaaaaally similar protagonists, and their character arcs are also very similar, especially when it comes to the "give a crap" aspect of it. DMC3 Dante has the idea of caring for Vergil as his brother, his descent into darkness and all.
DmC Dante learns to care for Kat and her ideals for mankind, which brings him in conflict with Vergil.

It's also interesting how Dante vs Vergil, the conflict in both games has similar motivations in a way. In both games, they disagree on the use of "power".
DMC3 has Vergil on a mad pursuit of pure power that is driving him insane and Dante wants to stop him before he goes too far.
In DmC, power is applied on the notion of "control", control of the human race. Dante believes he's fighting against it, when really the whole struggle was just about changing the form of "control", Vergil being the one holding the strings instead of Mundus.
Well that was derailed...
Anyway, DMC3 and DmC Dante are the same character.

 

[Innsmouth]

Well as far as i remember DmC Dante didn't made any effort to save humans aside form Kat whatoever. Up to the point there was few occasions where they were slaughtered before his eyes yet he did nothing. (like in attack on HQ) or in trade-in mission.

 

[Chancey289]

Yea, Dante didn't do anything to help. It's not like he was trapped in an alternate plane like Limbo or anything.

 

[Gel]

Yes, but even so DmC Dante cared more about a "simple human" than DMC Dante ever showed. In " DmC" he was worried with someone who was weaker than him and always treated her as an equal, DMC Dante only had cared for someone who was equal or even stronger than him.
In DMC, being human sucked hard, in DmC human characters are a little better appreciated.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

I'm amazed this thread is still going lol.

Original Dante was fond of humanity, while DmC one was pretty uncaring throughout whole game, except one single person.

That's not entirely true. Dante didn't seem to give much thought to all the people who got injured when Vergil resurrected the tower. He was more focussed on fighting Vergil than saving humanity. That's why Lady was there, she's the catalyst in the game to MAKE Dante give a hoot. Same as Kat in DmC.

Dante in DmC is almost the same Dante as in most of DMC3, only with more anger towards demons, as you can see his cursing shows up mostly just when demons are around.
But that's mostly because Dante in DmC doesn't have as much backstory as in DMC3. DmC is a beginning for Dante as a character, while DMC3 is not as much as a beginning, but a build up to a established character, the Dante of DMC1.

I dunno about DmC Dante not having much backstory. He's had more backstory than DMC3 Dante did, or a more elaborated backstory that was fed to us through cut-scenes and Vergil-preaches. I do get what you're saying, although Dante3 was being moulded into the established Dante1 character, the same can be said for DmC Dante. NT did state in an interview that Dante will be 'more akin to old Dante' near the end of the game, which he was in certain aspects. I know I'm going to be disagreed on with this but I'm just saying it the way I understood NT had implied for it to be.

Well as far as i remember DmC Dante didn't made any effort to save humans aside form Kat whatoever. Up to the point there was few occasions where they were slaughtered before his eyes yet he did nothing. (like in attack on HQ) or in trade-in mission.

Again, this same argument can be applied to Dante3. It's just that his lack of interest in the general human populace lasted for a shorter time whereas in DmC, it's dragged throughout the game for character development purposes.

Yes, but even so DmC Dante cared more about a "simple human" than DMC Dante ever showed. In " DmC" he was worried with someone who was weaker than him and always treated her as an equal, DMC Dante only had cared for someone who was equal or even stronger than him.
In DMC, being human sucked hard, in DmC human characters are a little better appreciated.

I know you're referring to the games alone, but you need to watch the anime. Dante pretended he didn't care about anyone. He had the attitude that everyone was just hassling him and paining him immensely. That goes for demons and humans alike. I think (personal observation here) that he's quite neutral on both grounds - he doesn't necessarily loathe demons (else he would have taken Sid out LONG AGO. Oh, and Trish - that's my argument) and he doesn't necessarily hate mankind. It's just that he'd rather not go out of his way to mingle with either.

 

[Ruisu]

I meant backstory as in, Dante and Vergil already had an ongoing rivalry at the beginning of DMC3, Lady's voiceover in the introduction even talks about how they battled again and again before, and how they had a sense of "sick pleasure" from it.
All Dante has in DmC is living on the move and fighting some random demons in limbo now and then. There's no backstory relating him to any other character in that pre-established way, you know?

I do get what you're saying, although Dante3 was being moulded into the established Dante1 character, the same can be said for DmC Dante. NT did state in an interview that Dante will be 'more akin to old Dante' near the end of the game, which he was in certain aspects. I know I'm going to be disagreed on with this but I'm just saying it the way I understood NT had implied for it to be.

Well, Dante in DmC ends up as more of a question mark really. We know how his philosophy has changed from what we see before the end, but how will that turn out in the days to come? We can't tell for sure, it was left open, unlike in DMC3, where we know how the story will go later.
Vergil's Downfall ends in a "Nero Angelo" flair, but there is no mundus pulling the strings. and no redemption (no pun intended) for Vergil to reach.
So Dante and Vergil are closer to their classic counter-parts, but at the same time still in different directions.

I think.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well since when do YOU need source Considering everything you said don't have it either, I think everyone can freely disregard everything you said according to your own logic

You are an absurd piece of something.

All qualities DmC and DMC share are pretty vague though. Loved fighting? Well in franchises like sengoku basara there are few fighting loving characters yet they all different. Loved drinking? Says even less about similarities. They do have major differences. Original Dante was fond of humanity, while DmC one was pretty uncaring throughout whole game, except one single person. Original Dante was laid back and calm most of the time, while DmC Dante was bratty and easily angered. List can go on forever. In the end DMC1,3,4 Dantes have much more in common than DmC with any of them :/

DmC Dante learned to care about humanity as the game progressed, as it was part of his growth as a character for him to go from not giving a sh!t to openly declaring himself humanity's protector which put him at odds with his own flesh and blood! Kat was simply a Katalyst (see what I did there, guys?!) that helped him realize that humanity had it bad, if not worse, than he did under the oppression of the demons.

DmC Dante is also just as laid back, he lived an extremely hedonistic lifestyle full of pleasures and literally did not give a sh!t about anything going on in the world. Also "bratty" is not an antonym for laid back, and while quick to anger when demons get on his case, he still carries himself the same as the classic does - he enjoys the fight, and does not take it seriously as a life-threatening situation. He straight up called the building-sized Mundus an @sshole, remember. The list also doesn't go on forever, you're just saying that because you're running out of ways to split hairs, while also still ignoring half of what actually happens to the character throughout the game.

Well as far as i remember DmC Dante didn't made any effort to save humans aside form Kat whatoever. Up to the point there was few occasions where they were slaughtered before his eyes yet he did nothing. (like in attack on HQ) or in trade-in mission.

Then you don't remember very far, because Dante was 1) stuck in an alternate dimension and had no way of helping them (like Chancey said), 2) showed empathy at their deaths, as well as the souls trapped in the prison in the missions just prior to that, and 3) he didn't really have time to sit their and lament the loss of life during the trade either, unless you're talking about Lilith, which holy f#cking sh!t she was a goddamn demon dude.

 

[Innsmouth]

I'm amazed this thread is still going lol.

That's not entirely true. Dante didn't seem to give much thought to all the people who got injured when Vergil resurrected the tower. He was more focussed on fighting Vergil than saving humanity. That's why Lady was there, she's the catalyst in the game to MAKE Dante give a hoot. Same as Kat in DmC.

He did so in DMC4 and anime though

The list also doesn't go on forever, you're just saying that because you're running out of ways to split hairs, while also still ignoring half of what actually happens to the character throughout the game.

Actually the problem there is pretty much nothing happens to him. He regains memory, but id didn't affect him as whole except he decides to fight demons actively. He never shows any anger about his mother or any care about his father. His emotions to vergil are developing over 2-3 last missions, despite vergil always being there. . I bet most of people didn't even understood he lost his memory in the first place, since game is very vague on it. It's game that consists out of 3 characters. Rest are just decorations or enemies.

Then you don't remember very far, because Dante was 1) stuck in an alternate dimension and had no way of helping them (like Chancey said), 2) showed empathy at their deaths, as well as the souls trapped in the prison in the missions just prior to that, and 3) he didn't really have time to sit their and lament the loss of life during the trade either, unless you're talking about Lilith, which holy f#cking sh!t she was a goddamn demon dude.

I don't know what Chancey said, since he's on my ignore and he remains there, so if he wants to keep talking to himself, my pleasure. Anyway alternative dimension 1) in attack on HQ he was together with Kat, yet instead of trying to help for survivors they didn't even checked if there was any. And in second case Limbo merges with real world. So he could have saved few people getting crushed or falling into abyss. Instead he used their autos as trampoline and throwed them at obstacles to pass through :/ 2) Empathy by saying it's messed up? It's not called empathy. Empathy would have been if he insisted on helping them. Yet he barely remembered them afterwards. 3) No, in this case im talking about all those people slaughtered before his eyes, because Vergil stepped on Mundus' toe. This is not how protector acts.

You are an absurd piece of something..

So I'm absurd because i don't want to waste anymore time to look for articles you a) ignore b) fail to provide yourself. ok.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Actually the problem there is pretty much nothing happens to him. He regains memory, but id didn't affect him as whole except he decides to fight demons actively. He never shows any anger about his mother or any care about his father. His emotions to vergil are developing over 2-3 last missions, despite vergil always being there.

No. In the beginning Dante learns about what happened to his family, explicitly says to the audience that he'll never forgive Mundus for what he did to his family, particularly his mother, and he wants revenge, he didn't care about humanity when he joined up with the Order, he just wanted to get back at Mundus. However, by spending a lot of time with Kat while getting to and from the succubus, Dante begins to see that humanity has had it rough as well. Then, he goes through the prison to reach Barbas and empathizes with all the humans trapped there. His relationship with Vergil slowly builds all throughout the game, but yes it becomes more apparent near the end as he spends more time with him.

I bet most of people didn't even understood he lost his memory in the first place, since game is very vague on it.

Uhhh...it's not vague on it at all; Vergil says flat out that Sparda suppressed their memories when he hid them away. And then Dante and Vergil talk about the feeling of their suppressed memories later in the game when they have a small moment.

This is all in the game...your knowledge seems rather rusty.

It's game that consists out of 3 characters. Rest are just decorations or enemies.

As opposed to the vast dramatis persona the classic series installments had...? Well, DMC4 was getting up there, but Gloria and Trish were the same person, and Kyrie and Lady barely did anything or had any screentime.

Anyway alternative dimension 1) in attack on HQ he was together with Kat, yet instead of trying to help for survivors they didn't even checked if there was any.

Uhm, well for one thing they needed to find Vergil, because he's sort of a big deal for the Order and their goal of overthrowing Mundus. Then, when you actually get to run around, there are no places you can go where there are people to save. Doors and rooms are closed off or destroyed, and all the ones we can get into are empty or full of demons, or we come across people as they are getting shot while Dante watches helplessly. Furthermore, there's little Dante could do until he met up with Kat anyway.

And in second case Limbo merges with real world. So he could have saved few people getting crushed or falling into abyss. Instead he used their autos as trampoline and throwed them at obstacles to pass through :/

Narp. Limbo didn't merge with the real world until after the Hellgate was closed. The blast during the Trade was simply an erratic wave of Malice that had a heavy effect on the area. Dante was jumping around on cars, but he had no way of physically helping anyone caught in chaos other than Vergil and Kat, who are also slightly more important to the overall goal of toppling Mundus than a soccer mom or truck driver. Or is Dante supposed to just somehow stop entire streets and buildings from collapsing...?

2) Empathy by saying it's messed up? It's not called empathy. Empathy would have been if he insisted on helping them. Yet he barely remembered them afterwards.

Messed up...? He also said things like "You poor bastards, just hang on." Dante was under the impression the entire f#cking time that everything that he was directed to do was to help humanity, that's one of the reasons he was so ****ed when he heard Vergil's true intentions. Then of course, what could Dante have done? He's a fighter, and he didn't have any way of helping the people trapped there, he couldn't interact with them, so how is he supposed to help?

You're setting up a very stringent set of standards that he somehow has to adhere to. Way to stack the deck, chummer.

3) No, in this case im talking about all those people slaughtered before his eyes, because Vergil stepped on Mundus' toe. This is not how protector acts.

What's not how a protector acts? There are slightly more pressing matters at hand at pretty much all times, and what the f#ck is he supposed to do?! Stop amidst the chaos, drop to his knees and cry out to the heavens screaming "OH GOD THE HUMANITY! WHYYYYYY MUST SO MANY DIIIIIIIIE?!" Jesus dude, not even the classic Dante did anything like that in regards to human life, from what I remember.

So I'm absurd because i don't want to waste anymore time to look for articles you a) ignore b) fail to provide yourself. ok.

Exactly - instead of bothering to adhere to your own standards you wanted me to hold to, you say it's a waste of time, and then you deflect by saying all I do is ignore what you provide, which is not the case at all. Rather, you keep tossing up misinterpreting what is actually being said. F#ck dude, you even end your sentence with the exact same thing you just refused to do yourself.

 

[Innsmouth]

Uhhh...it's not vague on it at all; Vergil says flat out that Sparda suppressed their memories when he hid them away. And then Dante and Vergil talk about the feeling of their suppressed memories later in the game when they have a small moment.

This is all in the game...your knowledge seems rather rusty.

I still think it was rather untransparent. It's like you know he has to learn everything anew, but instead of clarifying it along the lines it was mentioned somewhere there along the line.

As opposed to the vast dramatis persona the classic series installments had...? Well, DMC4 was getting up there, but Gloria and Trish were the same person, and Kyrie and Lady barely did anything or had any screentime.

Kyrie was typical damsel in distress, while Lady was mostly fanservice and plot hook. DMC never had livid world. Problem is that neither is DmC. I never suggested DMC was better in that case. It's just DmC is just as bad with candle of demand for realismus on top.

Uhm, well for one thing they needed to find Vergil, because he's sort of a big deal for the Order and their goal of overthrowing Mundus. Then, when you actually get to run around, there are no places you can go where there are people to save. Doors and rooms are closed off or destroyed, and all the ones we can get into are empty or full of demons, or we come across people as they are getting shot while Dante watches helplessly. Furthermore, there's little Dante could do until he met up with Kat anyway.

Yet they didn't even tried or Dante showed any pity for them. Kat did it. Dante said something like she needs to brace herself and **** happens. But those humans still died :/

Narp. Limbo didn't merge with the real world until after the Hellgate was closed. The blast during the Trade was simply an erratic wave of Malice that had a heavy effect on the area. Dante was jumping around on cars, but he had no way of physically helping anyone caught in chaos other than Vergil and Kat, who are also slightly more important to the overall goal of toppling Mundus than a soccer mom or truck driver. Or is Dante supposed to just somehow stop entire streets and buildings from collapsing...?

Merge began at this moment, or at least it created a rift, because Limbo actively interfered with real life objects like cars. And if he's proclaim himself "protector" and than chooses to pursue only what's important to him while ignoring rest, it pretty much nullifies every claim about his empathy for humanity. Since in this case he cared only about what's important while leaving rest to die.

Messed up...? He also said things like "You poor bastards, just hang on." Dante was under the impression the entire f#cking time that everything that he was directed to do was to help humanity, that's one of the reasons he was so ****ed when he heard Vergil's true intentions. Then of course, what could Dante have done? He's a fighter, and he didn't have any way of helping the people trapped there, he couldn't interact with them, so how is he supposed to help?

Well if they wanted to show empathy for humans, they could have done it at this moment by just few phrases. Not wise cracking joke about humans hanging on the celling :/

What's not how a protector acts? There are slightly more pressing matters at hand at pretty much all times, and what the f#ck is he supposed to do?! Stop amidst the chaos, drop to his knees and cry out to the heavens screaming "OH GOD THE HUMANITY! WHYYYYYY MUST SO MANY DIIIIIIIIE?!" Jesus dude, not even the classic Dante did anything like that in regards to human life, from what I remember.

I know how protector not acts. He doesn't stand atop of building watching half destroyed city, where thousands died because of his feud with demons and proclaiming pathos lines. HE at least should have helped those who can be helped.

Exactly - instead of bothering to adhere to your own standards you wanted me to hold to, you say it's a waste of time, and then you deflect by saying all I do is ignore what you provide, which is not the case at all. Rather, you keep tossing up misinterpreting what is actually being said. F#ck dude, you even end your sentence with the exact same thing you just refused to do yourself.

don't changes switches. I don't need to counter your arguments. Because you didn't provided any proof for any of them, no matter how many time you was asked. All you said "I heard somewhere in last 4 years, in articles I don't know where to look for". I called you on that and now you trying to shift same kind of blame on me. Lets not put this on childish level. I know exactly what interview it was. It was extended version of Itsuno talking about that they didn't wanted franchise grow stale. But I can't spend half'n'hour looking for it, only for you to shovel it under the carpet and proceed with more conjectures without sources.