Vergil's True Mission?

[Demi-fiend]

... Melfice is still the ultimate badass, though.

 

[The Final Offer]

Y'know what? I'm done with this. FO, I like you, but I'm sick of you acting like a patronizing ass and just flat out refusing to understand what I've been saying.

I've been in plenty of discussions, many with people throwing around logical fallacies and ignoring what is known in favor of their own perception.

And this...



This is bullsh!t, because you're putting words in my mouth. The game sets out information for us to understand what's going on, and through logical inference we see how things are. That's not some guess, it's just how it is. It's sometimes painfully obvious what is being inferred by the game and its world, like f#cking people murdered at a goddamn strip club.

Whatever I'm "downplaying" is giant leaps of logic and ignorance of what is said, shown, and inferred. You can believe what you want, but you can't hold it up when it contradicts what we actually know from the one friggin' game he's in where he actually has agency. All of these "probabilities" that you've been arguing with me about are not probable, especially when logical explanations are so f#cking close at hand. The simplest explanations are have the highest probability of being right, because if it was to be otherwise, the game would have gone out of its way to explain something else.

When you have to make a gigantic leap in logic to come to a conclusion, it's more than likely because there's no information in the immediate source to support it, or because that is the desired conclusion where the elements are cobbled together to fit that conclusion (circular logic).

I'm sorry for dragging the argument out like that, but sh!t dude, some things really are just that obvious :/

Hold up, wait a minute, let me put some hints up in it.

The deal about the blood being so obvious.

Did you think that Nero wasn't Vergil's son? You know, with the sword reacting to his touch and emotions, unlocking his devil trigger, and the hints from Dante that weapons like Yamato "Have to stay in the family." and him letting Nero keep it which would contradict what he just said. Ah and I forgot Sanctus confirming that Nero has the blood of Sparda in him. Can't forget that the way Yamato reacts to Nero is the same way Sparda's weapons react to Dante and Vergil.

I'm just wondering this from all of this talk about the painfully obvious.

 

[The Final Offer]

Also folks, here is the blood he was speaking of.

Now mind you folks, Arkham who was human bled red, but didn't die. Actually, he wasn't hurt at all.

So, with demons hiding inside of human bodies, on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest, how violent do you think their true form transformation looks?

Pretty much skin tearing and blood splashing everywhere right?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Hold up, wait a minute, let me put some hints up in it.

The deal about the blood being so obvious.

Did you think that Nero wasn't Vergil's son? You know, with the sword reacting to his touch and emotions, unlocking his devil trigger, and the hints from Dante that weapons like Yamato "Have to stay in the family." and him letting Nero keep it which would contradict what he just said. Ah and I forgot Sanctus confirming that Nero has the blood of Sparda in him. Can't forget that the way Yamato reacts to Nero is the same way Sparda's weapons react to Dante and Vergil.

I'm just wondering this from all of this talk about the painfully obvious.

Yes, it's obvious that there's some sort of connection between Nero and Vergil. However, they didn't explain it in-game at all, and the official statement still makes very little sense :/

Also folks, here is the blood he was speaking of.

Now mind you folks, Arkham who was human bled red, but didn't die. Actually, he wasn't hurt at all.

So, with demons hiding inside of human bodies, on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest, how violent do you think their true form transformation looks?

Pretty much skin tearing and blood splashing everywhere right?

This would imply that there's information supporting the idea that demons were hiding inside human bodies, but there isn't any. There's an assumption since demons naturally can possess people that it's possible, but nothing in DMC3 supports the idea that they'd even need to. Plus, demons in disguise only seem to transform, not violently erupt out of their skin. Then of course, the bloodstains aren't splashes where someone exploded, they're pools and spatters from where a person would fall and get torn apart, and there's smears as if bodies were dragged around. This is some armchair forensics, but the bloodstains paint the scene for us. Pun not intended but wholly welcome

All signs point to some moiduh'd strippaz. Either Jack is back letting 'er rip, or the demons that appeared alongside Temen-ni-gru had themselves some murder-time fun-time.

Anyway...

Time to make like a fetus and head out.

 

[ReaperHunter]

So, with demons hiding inside of human bodies, on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the highest, how violent do you think their true form transformation looks?

Pretty much skin tearing and blood splashing everywhere right?

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most of the lower level demons in DMC3 manifest through sand? I think it tells you that in the enemy files or something.

 

[The Final Offer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most of the lower level demons in DMC3 manifest through sand? I think it tells you that in the enemy files or something.

That's right and yet Arkham is being stabbed and transforming into a clown hours later.

With there being no blood trails after the strip club or in the bar, I'm guessing alot of demons reacted to the rise of the tower and shredded their skin.

Also, I gotta point out that the entire reason Dante opened the shop in town was to find demons that were hard to find because of disguises. Also, can't forget that a majority of DMC they elaborate on the demons being in human form. DMC 1, DMC 2, DMC 3, DMC 4, DMC anime, DmC, and DMC books.

So no, we can't draw an conclusion that it's human blood until it is confirmed.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

That's right and yet Arkham is being stabbed and transforming into a clown hours later.

But that's Arkham, and Arkham is a human using magic to empower himself. And...when he's Jester he bleeds confetti, and has no violent transformation to and from, either.

The entire fact of saying "some demons bleed red blood" is irrelevant, because we don't see any demons who do that outside of the tower or the underworld

With there being no blood trails after the strip club or in the bar, I'm guessing alot of demons reacted to the rise of the tower and shredded their skin.

But then to say demons were shedding their skin, there'd be more of your version of the evidence in the strip club all over the place, too. You can't say that "there isn't blood anywhere else" and then say "it's gotta be this", when that would need to follow your same logic from before. If demons truly were shedding their skin, there'd be blood everywhere on our approach to Temen-ni-gru - but there's not. The armchair forensics points to bodies being pinned and dragged around. Bull's Eye Bar has virtually no signs of struggle or even recent activity - no people seem to have been there, or if anyone was they retreated to the adjacent Love Planet, and then got slaughtered. Love Planet is also closer to the tower, which would mean demons would be passing that place first.

Also, I gotta point out that the entire reason Dante opened the shop in town was to find demons that were hard to find because of disguises. Also, can't forget that a majority of DMC they elaborate on the demons being in human form. DMC 1, DMC 2, DMC 3, DMC 4, DMC anime, DmC, and DMC books.

So no, we can't draw an conclusion that it's human blood until it is confirmed.

We can easily draw a conclusion based on logic, man. I know you seem to hate that word, either because I'm using it or because it tends to debunk theory, but that's the logical conclusion.

I'd also reiterated that most demons never transform violently. The novels as far as I'm concerned are the only ones that are violent and would leave behind blood, and in the DMC1 novel I think I remember it's because the humans were actually being sacrificed, and not simply transforming. Plus, with how shaky the canon of everything non-game is (anime notwithstanding), we can only really go by the games themselves, and I don't remember any violent transformations from demons in human disguises.

For what you say to be truly considered, you gotta cite sources, and then they have to be able to hold up to scrutiny :x

 

[The Final Offer]

But that's Arkham, and Arkham is a human using magic to empower himself. And...when he's Jester he bleeds confetti, and has no violent transformation to and from, either.

The entire fact of saying "some demons bleed red blood" is irrelevant, because we don't see any demons who do that outside of the tower or the underworld



But then to say demons were shedding their skin, there'd be more of your version of the evidence in the strip club all over the place, too. You can't say that "there isn't blood anywhere else" and then say "it's gotta be this", when that would need to follow your same logic from before. If demons truly were shedding their skin, there'd be blood everywhere on our approach to Temen-ni-gru - but there's not. The armchair forensics points to bodies being pinned and dragged around. Bull's Eye Bar has virtually no signs of struggle or even recent activity - no people seem to have been there, or if anyone was they retreated to the adjacent Love Planet, and then got slaughtered. Love Planet is also closer to the tower, which would mean demons would be passing that place first.



We can easily draw a conclusion based on logic, man. I know you seem to hate that word, either because I'm using it or because it tends to debunk theory, but that's the logical conclusion.

I'd also reiterated that most demons never transform violently. The novels as far as I'm concerned are the only ones that are violent and would leave behind blood, and in the DMC1 novel I think I remember it's because the humans were actually being sacrificed, and not simply transforming. Plus, with how shaky the canon of everything non-game is (anime notwithstanding), we can only really go by the games themselves, and I don't remember any violent transformations from demons in human disguises.

For what you say to be truly considered, you gotta cite sources, and then they have to be able to hold up to scrutiny :x

Pardon me, I had to laugh at that.

You are just now saying, what I've been saying to you.

What facts do you have besides "Humans resided here" and yes, I'm so glad you noticed how there wasn't a struggle in the bar. You claim you used logic, but where are the humans? Where are the remains? You'd think with the blood being on a surface such as that, it would get onto Dante's shoes or even streak as he walked on it. There would be bodies since the blood itself stops inside of the strip club and yet, none are there.

When did demons eat humans? Where are the bodies?

What are your sources? "Besides I see a red splatter." and "people were here."

If you watch the cutscene of the tower rising, there are no people being shown. It looks vacant.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Dude, half of logical conclusion is based on common sense. This is the ignorance thing I was talking about, you're ignoring the most logical conclusion in favor of something that requires a leap in logic, the very definition of which means to disregard what is presented, what is common sense, and what is logical.

Where are they bodies? They got devoured, or carried off some place? Or, much like not bothering to model incidental civilians, they'd rather hint at the murder and not leave dismembered corpses everywhere, for whatever reason. DMC is about stylish gothic tones, though, not gore.

If you watch the cutscene of the tower rising, there are no people being shown. It looks vacant.

I would direct you back to the "not bothering to create models for such incidental junk" think that any self-respecting gamer is aware of. Hell, Capcom has done this since the PSX era! Resident Evil 2 and 3 took place in a well-populated city overrun with zombies, and we never see random people or zombies in the background mulling about - we only ever see what we interact with. It's a developmental resources thing, just like Sora being cheered on by an invisible coliseum crowd in Kingdom Hearts.

And don't just ignore that fact because it sounds like a cop-out. At least in DMC3 they bothered to make Dante mention a justification for the lack of people, unlike in Kingdom Hearts where it just seems really freaking weird >.<

Or are you willing to believe that Dante just hangs out and started a business in a completely vacant city...?

And honestly, I just realized how stupid it is that we're arguing this. You've been trying your damnedest to unravel the idea that there were people in Love Planet, when I should just be telling you to f#cking accept that a city where Dante sets up his business of helping people and killing demons would have to be full of f#cking people.

The anime is the only non-game piece of the franchise that ever seems to hold up with the canon, and even we see there that the city is full of people! People live in cities, Offer. People live all over the goddamn place, just accept it. That's common f#cking sense. Even if there are demons who violently exploded out of their meat suits, even if Love Planet's bloody environ isn't indicative of the (wholly obvious) murder that took place there, people still live in the city, and Vergil still carelessly put them at risk, because Vergil's a douchenozzle that doesn't care about anyone but himself.

End of discussion.

 

[The Final Offer]

Dude, half of logical conclusion is based on common sense. This is the ignorance thing I was talking about, you're ignoring the most logical conclusion in favor of something that requires a leap in logic, the very definition of which means to disregard what is presented, what is common sense, and what is logical.

Where are they bodies? They got devoured, or carried off some place? Or, much like not bothering to model incidental civilians, they'd rather hint at the murder and not leave dismembered corpses everywhere, for whatever reason. DMC is about stylish gothic tones, though, not gore.



I would direct you back to the "not bothering to create models for such incidental junk" think that any self-respecting gamer is aware of. Hell, Capcom has done this since the PSX era! Resident Evil 2 and 3 took place in a well-populated city overrun with zombies, and we never see random people or zombies in the background mulling about - we only ever see what we interact with. It's a developmental resources thing, just like Sora being cheered on by an invisible coliseum crowd in Kingdom Hearts.

And don't just ignore that fact because it sounds like a cop-out. At least in DMC3 they bothered to make Dante mention a justification for the lack of people, unlike in Kingdom Hearts where it just seems really freaking weird >.<

Or are you willing to believe that Dante just hangs out and started a business in a completely vacant city...?

And honestly, I just realized how stupid it is that we're arguing this. You've been trying your damnedest to unravel the idea that there were people in Love Planet, when I should just be telling you to f#cking accept that a city where Dante sets up his business of helping people and killing demons would have to be full of f#cking people.

The anime is the only non-game piece of the franchise that ever seems to hold up with the canon, and even we see there that the city is full of people! People live in cities, Offer. People live all over the goddamn place, just accept it. That's common f#cking sense. Even if there are demons who violently exploded out of their meat suits, even if Love Planet's bloody environ isn't indicative of the (wholly obvious) murder that took place there, people still live in the city, and Vergil still carelessly put them at risk, because Vergil's a douchenozzle that doesn't care about anyone but himself.

End of discussion.

Wrong. People from all over the world seek out Dante's help. Where he chooses to set up may be a quiet place and soon gets remodeled and even more populated after the events of DMC 3. Usually, from what I've experienced in my life, rural areas entertain strip clubs. For all we know, it could've been a run down town populated by demons and barely any humans. So, provide me with evidence to back up your claims! You can't and I know that.....hell you know that.

Wrong. This whole discussion is about you and your headcanon about Vergil. I've melted you down to discussing the blood on the floor to try to prove that you aren't using headcanon. I've entertained it because I enjoy stubborn people. You're in a fantasy world, blood on the floor could be anything. How could you forget that?

Wrong. There are no humans (that aren't apart of the story) ANYWHERE. There is no evidence that these demons devour people! If they did, then why would they pose as humans? You keep saying it's on purpose, it's on purpose, when I've told you that games like God of War have human beings present and they're not even apart of the story! You have NO proof of this being on purpose by developers. Where are your sources?

Wrong. I never said it wasn't a fact that there were people and never denied that the blood wasn't a human's. I said that it's a fact that there is not enough evidence to conclude that is human blood. You are saying there is because you see a red splatters on the ground and believe that since humans are the occupants it can't be anything else, but human blood. There are no humans to be found throughout the game. There are no human remains to be found throughout the game. Your conclusion could be true or it could be false. We don't know.

Wrong. All you've been trying to do is....I don't know, get me to tell you you're right when I have been saying that you COULD be right. That's not enough for you though. You wanna say that I'm not using logic. When everything I've been saying is clearly logical for anyone to grasp and understand. Possibilities are there because everything we've been discussing is barely explained. It's emphasized, but not confirmed. Do you or do you not agree?

Wrong. DMC has never strayed away from gore. Dante taking Alastor to the chest remains one of the most goriest moments in video game history. The damn game tells you before you play that there's going to be gore.

You're wrong here. You're just mentally absent of believing something else could've gone down here. It's headcanon, you've been spreading lies and pushing them off as facts, this entire discussion is about you accepting that you accidentally got something wrong and you won't accept it. Answer the ringing phone so you can get that wake up call.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Wrong. All you've been trying to do is....I don't know, get me to tell you you're right when I have been saying that you COULD be right. That's not enough for you though. You wanna say that I'm not using logic. When everything I've been saying is clearly logical for anyone to grasp and understand. Possibilities are there because everything we've been discussing is barely explained. It's emphasized, but not confirmed. Do you or do you not agree?

Bullsh!t! You have been systematically arguing against whatever I say with all this possibility junk without ever acknowledging the most logical conclusions! If you had f#cking opened with "sure that sounds likely, but what about this" things would have been totally different, but no! You held steadfast to explaining alternatives without ever saying "you COULD be right". I've been arguing against your possibilities because they're so unlikely and fly in the face of logic and common sense. Sometimes things that are left absent or unexplained are left that way because it's just common sense, and shouldn't need explaining.

You said "what if Vergil cares about humanity too and that's why he's doing it," and I countered with "but the game shows Vergil not caring about anyone but himself, and even putting humans in more danger by raising Temen-Ni-Gru," then you went off into some nitpicky bullsh!t about how people that requires such ingorance and grand leaps in logic to justify the initial thought. The possibility you've been arguing for is so goddamn slim and is immediately ruined by acknowledging things in the game and normal, everyday logic.

 

[DarkSlayerZero]

On the honor topic, Dante is the honorable one. He has all the traits even DmC Dante is honorable.

 

[The Final Offer]

Bullsh!t! You have been systematically arguing against whatever I say with all this possibility junk without ever acknowledging the most logical conclusions! If you had f#cking opened with "sure that sounds likely, but what about this" things would have been totally different, but no! You held steadfast to explaining alternatives without ever saying "you COULD be right". I've been arguing against your possibilities because they're so unlikely and fly in the face of logic and common sense. Sometimes things that are left absent or unexplained are left that way because it's just common sense, and shouldn't need explaining.

You said "what if Vergil cares about humanity too and that's why he's doing it," and I countered with "but the game shows Vergil not caring about anyone but himself, and even putting humans in more danger by raising Temen-Ni-Gru," then you went off into some nitpicky bullsh!t about how people that requires such ingorance and grand leaps in logic to justify the initial thought. The possibility you've been arguing for is so goddamn slim and is immediately ruined by acknowledging things in the game and normal, everyday logic.

It's emphasized, but not confirmed. Do you or do you not agree?

Here, I'll make it easier for you. Why do you think you're using your "everyday" logic on something as small as who's blood is who's?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It's all way more than merely emphasized. Emphasis implies a certain thing being slightly more apparent, as if all other possibilities are only slightly less apparent. Inferrence implies that what is apparent is nearly certain due to facts at hand and conclusive elements that are understandable based on logic and common sense. Yes, I used the word "nearly", which doesn't mean 100%, but if possibilities are going to be put forth that defy the logic we can easily know and understand, there needs to be reasonable elements to back it up, ones that don't contradict or require the ignorance of the aforementioned logic.

Also - maaaaaaan where's our images? I can't scroll down for awesome anymore

 

[The Final Offer]

It's all way more than merely emphasized. Emphasis implies a certain thing being slightly more apparent, as if all other possibilities are only slightly less apparent. Inferrence implies that what is apparent is nearly certain due to facts at hand and conclusive elements that are understandable based on logic and common sense. Yes, I used the word "nearly", which doesn't mean 100%, but if possibilities are going to be put forth that defy the logic we can easily know and understand, there needs to be reasonable elements to back it up, ones that don't contradict or require the ignorance of the aforementioned logic.

Also - maaaaaaan where's our images? I can't scroll down for awesome anymore

Setting -> Fantasy -> Fiction -> Uncertainty

We see the setting is modern time in DMC 3, though, I'm not for certain where.
We see the fantasy elements in DMC 3 with the demons and magic.
We see the fiction as it's not realistic at all.
We see the uncertainty in which a thing appears to be something and turns out to be something else.

There is always something that can appear to be something and turn out to be something else. Which is why I'm cautious about any to everything in fantasy media. If it doesn't state and only implies something is something, I'm not going to rule it out. I can continue my theorizing until it's confirmed.

For example: Spoilers to Death Note:

Spoiler

Take L vs Light Yagami. He couldn't prove that it was Light, but he was spot on. Everything pointed towards Light to him, but not to anyone else. He had all the right reasons to believe. Yet people remained skeptical until it was revealed. L gave the probability a percentage. Meaning he believed a certain amount, based on the facts he's gathered, that Light was Kira.

Is that not a logical way of thinking when it comes to fictional things?

Don't know what happened with the images, but if it's something on our end that's causing trouble, I'm willing to get rid of mine.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It's a fantasy game, but it's setting is very obviously modern, when it's not going for something supernatural. The anime even gives us incite that the world is basically exactly like ours. In this way, we're meant to take everything as it is, unless we are explicitly told differently differently.

 

[Demi-fiend]

STOP.

STOP.

STOP.

 

[The Final Offer]

STOP.

STOP.

STOP.

I was hoping one of those would say STAPH.

 

[The Final Offer]

It's a fantasy game, but it's setting is very obviously modern, when it's not going for something supernatural. The anime even gives us incite that the world is basically exactly like ours. In this way, we're meant to take everything as it is, unless we are explicitly told differently differently.

2x....you do know this about me thinking open minded and free? I am allowed to theorize in the places I see fit. I gave you logical explanations as to why I would theorize instead of assume. You're literally, trying to limit my thinking altitude.

So, because I don't think like you do when it comes to fiction, I can not tell you how disappointed I am with this conversation.

We went from arguing if Vergil is honorable-> Vergil killing people -> People being killed -> What being's blood is in a strip club. All of this, to prove that you weren't using headcanon.

I'd say the way that conversation went from looking at these topics was in my favor.