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Last Chance Leaving...

Dante's Stalker

"Outrun this!"
Premium
Supporter 2014
That bolded part is your words not mine. Let me take you through reality ok?

You can say "Ninja theory developed reboot", but that doesn't mean they invented it. Because some people take word "developed" as "invented".
So did NT invent devil may cry? No.
All NT did was do a job, create art, make audio, program and do other tasks such as story and cinematics. And yes they did alot, i am not saying they didn't. But you will be mistaken if you think that they did as much work as a new ip asks of developers.

They didn't have to come up with majority of reboot's gameplay or i.e shape up the gameplay from a creative point of view. It was all there from the beginning for them to reproduce.
Produce a fitting word. That is what NT did. Produce the gameplay, not develop it.

So please calm the f down. Reboot IS capcom's DmC.
1. They paid for the projects that shaped the gameplay (dmc1-4)
2. They paid for reboot project i.e NT's employees
2. They taught NT on how to produce dmc gameplay
3. They assisted NT when they needed help
So again...Capcom's DmC. Had DmC been a new ip and not a reproduction of original games gameplay, then yes it would be appropriate to call it NT's DmC, but it's not...so how about you come to terms with that fact please.


I just wanted to come in here and tell you off for discrediting the NT company for their work.
I think it goes without saying that when we refer to DmC as Ninja Theory's DMC, it is more to the point of distinguishing which devil may cry we are discussing. Of course Capcom owns DMC. WTF. You've got to be a total newb to the franchise NOT to know this, and I think it's safe to say that the majority of the fanbase know Capcom are behind the scenes. It's not like we've been following the development and interviews and **** for this game for over a year or anything.:|
Don't jump on the small, insignificant details. We all know even though NT developed the game, Capcom own the copyright. Didn't you know this? Oh you did? So why did you feel the need to 'correct' the OP?

Also, I love how you've dummied down the work NT actually put into developing this game. Yeah, it's not The Best, it's not The Worst game in history either. So it's not a new IP, and they had a base to start off from. I don't believe for one second that it made the development process any easier. It's a popular franchise that they were contracted to work on. I'm sure they could have said no when Capcom approached them. It takes guts to take on a project with an already existing fanbase. So, maybe, they had it 'easy' on the development side of things, but I'm sure they faced many more challenges that they wouldn't have if it had been a new IP.

Oh, and I don't know if you know this but there are a few very anal people who run the show at Capcom. If any of them were involved with DmC, I'm sure NT had a hard time of it.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
A bunch of stuff you pulled out of your ass, right? You can be honest with me, we're all friends here.


IncaDemo, Ninja Theory built DmC from the ground up. They used no existing code or engine from any previous DMC, only concepts that were already in place.

No one's fighting you on the idea that Ninja Theory wholly created DmC, but the fact of the matter is that while Capcom still holds the IP, DmC is very much their game. Capcom had extremely limited hands-on involvement with the game.

And again, for f#ck's sake, DmC is Ninja Theory's interpretation of the Devil May Cry formula, and is therefore theirs in all ways except owning the entire Intellectual Property. If you really need a visual aid to help you understand this, I'll pose you this question?

Who owns this?
MV5BMTIxNzY1MDg2Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDgxMDEzMQ@@._V1_.jpg


...

...

Take your time, I'll wait...

...

...

Did you say "Disney?" If you did, then congratu-friggin'-lations you're finally getting it. Disney created and owns Tarzan there, however, Edgar Rice Burroughs (the original author, or IP Holder, if you will) created Tarzan the Apeman, of which Disney's version is based on.

Now, come to terms with that fact, please.
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
Odd turn of events, how this discussion is going. From last chance to who intellectual property belongs to.

The fascinating part of this is that I believe if Capcom had decided to take a more central roll as the face of the media this issue would not be so heated. It's because NT was so dead smack in the center of attention that it now becomes their game, not because it is but because we associate it with them, and that is what this is about, not who it really belongs to but rather who we associate the game with, Capcom or NT.

It should be noted that it doesn't matter who we perceive 'owner' since ownership goes to highest point in the pyramid, no different than any other business project. By that I mean that Capcom owns all things DMC and not NT. If Capcom decides to make another DMC they can and shall. If NT wants to make another DmC they need to get permission. However, if Capcom wants to make another DmC they don't need permission from NT and I personally think that they don't even need their participation, I honestly think that Capcom can find another studio and follow through with DmC without as much as a polite letter to NT letting them know of the fact.

Yes, when we see DmC we think of NT before Capcom, but our perceptions don't make it true. I know it's a discussion of who is more responsible for the creation rather than the legal/financial/© ownership and one way people figure to do that was to point out who did more but I don't think that bares any relevance, specially since people seem to think Capcom was just a little involved and NT did everything, which isn't true, it was very much a two studio job and saying that Capcom isn't that involved is not that true.

In a way you could argue that the whole ownership thing is a little like figuring out who the child looks like more, the mom or the dad. He has his mother's eyes but his father's mannerisms. Does DmC look and feel more like a Capcom game or a NT game. I've only played Heavenly Sword so it's hard for me to say NT just on character and background design but I've played a lot of Capcom games so I know how they play and feel. The way the game moves and plays is just as important so how looks and feels so I'm not sure where to go from there, I don't know if I'll just give it up to NT just because they made most of the labor.
 

Lionheart

Solid Ocelot
As far as I know, the discussion was mainly about whose game it is. By that I mean whose 'brainchild' it is. You can say Capcom invented the gameplay, and that's obviously true. But I really don't see how that makes it their game. Just like movies are the intellectual property of their writers (who made the plot), DmC is NT's property by virtue of its plot. If somebody remakes Castlevania and gives it a totally different plot, but pretty much uses the same gameplay as in previous installments, that doesn't make the game property of the people who developed the gameplay of previous Castlevanias. DmC was made by NT, with help from Capcom. That's it. NT made the plot, or at least they gave their take on it. That makes it more their game than Capcom's, though I'm sure Capcom has some rights over it.
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
DmC is NT's property by virtue of its plot.

I can't agree with this. The plot can be theirs all they want, they certainly wrote it, but plot is not, by far, the most defining prospect of this game, it's the gameplay. I skip the plot for this game, I skipped every cutscene the first time I played it.

If you say
Capcom invented the gameplay

and follow it with
But I really don't see how that makes it their game.

Then I can't really stand behind it.

To me the particulars of this game's value start and end with the gameplay. Yeah, plot is getting progressively more and more important to games but the truth is we are in it for the gameplay on this one and that is what makes the game, this game, not the story. People skip cutscenes after the first playthrough but they don't skip gameplay.

By virtue of the plot the story is theirs but the game is not.
 

Lionheart

Solid Ocelot
I can't agree with this. The plot can be theirs all they want, they certainly wrote it, but plot is not, by far, the most defining prospect of this game, it's the gameplay. I skip the plot for this game, I skipped every cutscene the first time I played it.

If you say


and follow it with


Then I can't really stand behind it.

To me the particulars of this game's value start and end with the gameplay. Yeah, plot is getting progressively more and more important to games but the truth is we are in it for the gameplay on this one and that is what makes the game, this game, not the story. People skip cutscenes after the first playthrough but they don't skip gameplay.

By virtue of the plot the story is theirs but the game is not.


I've explained this multiple times already. I know your point is probably going to be 'it's a game, therefore the gameplay is the most important'. However, we have to face the fact that video games are like interactive movies, especially nowadays. Without a plot, there is nothing to base the gameplay around. I'm not talking about 'what makes a game a game' or 'what's more important, gameplay or plot' I'm talking about what makes something one's intellectual property, brainchild, whatever you want to call it. The plot is what separates DmC from the DMCs. Since the plot was made by NT, that makes it mainly their game (though I agree Capcom has rights to the game as well). The gameplay can be the same throughout all known time for all I care, but as soon as the plot is made by someone other than Capcom, and they give their blessing, that makes it those people's game, not Capcom's (for the most part).

Like I said, Castlevania (or whichever game) does not belong to the person who happened to come up with its core gameplay concepts. If that were the case, almost every game in existence would belong to people who are long dead, retired or otherwise.
 

IncarnatedDemon

Well-known Member
You're gonna have to point out some sort of apologizing, because I certainly didn't apologize for sh!t.

It really just seems like you took a sound verbal beating and can't find a way to bow out of the discussion...
My answer to the post:
Edgar Rice Burroughs is creative owner of Disney Tarzan. Because his creative process created the concept of Tarzan, therefor what Disney have done is make his creation with or without alterations.
Let me guess, the answer surprises you ? You thought i would say Disney? Foolish.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
My answer to the post:
Edgar Rice Burroughs is creative owner of Disney Tarzan. Because his creative process created the concept of Tarzan, therefor what Disney have done is make his creation with or without alterations.
Let me guess, the answer surprises you ? You thought i would say Disney? Foolish.


O________________o

I haven't removed anything...

Also - good job on being wrong. Again.

If you started illegally distributing that movie, guess whose legal team would be on your ass? Disney's, because you're infringing on their property, because they made it. If you made your own interpretation of Tarzan and the characters, you'd have Burrough's on your ass, because you're infringing on his IP without permission.
 

IncarnatedDemon

Well-known Member
I am not talking about legal issue when creating something, so why your mumbling about that ...is beyond me. I am simply telling you...Burrough is creative owner of Disney Tarzan because Disney Tarzan is a version of his Tarzan. Tarzan that he came up with through a process of creative thinking.

Perhaps if NTDante had no similarity with original Dante other than name then it would be appropriate to give creative ownership of that character to NT. But that's not the case.

Likes Pizza
Rebellion
Ebony and Ivory
White hair
Likes to joke around
Devil trigger/demon form
Has an amulet
coat
Has a twin brother named Vergil
Has a father named Sparda
Has a mother named Eva

could you remind me who came up with all of this for character named Dante? Was it NT? It must be when your giving them creative ownership of NTDante to NT even though most of the stuff by NTDante is similar to original Dante (or tries to).
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
I've explained this multiple times already. I know your point is probably going to be 'it's a game, therefore the gameplay is the most important'.

Not exactly.

I'm in a position where I advocate that video games are a broad media that allow for more than just gameplay. It's rare to find a video game that has great everything all around but most video games have certain draw to them. When one game excels in gameplay (RE4) another excels in the story (SH2) and others might not even do that but still have a quality that makes them good or appealing, like the visual design (Alice: Madness Returns) or even a more simple form of interactivity (Unfinished Swan). That is the beauty of video games.

In this game I don't believe the story is the paradigm of the experience, nor the art direction, or the character designs, but rather the game play, that's why I'm putting such emphasis on it over the plot.

However, we have to face the fact that video games are like interactive movies, especially nowadays.

Yeah, your blockbuster games but the potential for gaming extends to a more abstract possibility than straight narratives such is in film. I'll refer to the previously mentioned Unfinished Swan. I'm not saying that that isn't true, that video games are becoming like movies, and it most certainly is the case with this game, but you say as an absolute, which is not, not all video games have a narrative, not all video games need one, and there will always be video games that don't have one to be a video game.

Without a plot, there is nothing to base the gameplay around.
The mechanics. Lumines doesn't have a plot, why would it need one.

Again, unrelated, but still, it's one of those things that needs to be said.

I'm not talking about 'what makes a game a game' or 'what's more important, gameplay or plot' I'm talking about what makes something one's intellectual property, brainchild, whatever you want to call it.
In this case it's the notion that you are taking something that exists and appropriating it can be the basis of possible discussion as to who it belongs to.

You can look at this in two ways.
1. NT simply created a fanfic, no different than any other writer of the genre but with a high budget and permission from the people holding the copyrights to add gameplay. The real owners are the people who created it and they have left Capcom. They aren't dead and they certainly aren't inactive but rather the victims of copyright law. Everything that came after the original is just someone twitching someone else's creative work, and that includes NT. That original creation is the birth place of all the concepts we see and adding and/or improving is certainly far simpler than creating. This case been no different, they just took out what they didn't think your general consumers would not like and replaced them with things that they would.
2. NT appropriated this work and altered it to how they would've created the concept. It is the time and effort to change something and making it 'their own,' giving it another personality, another presence, and developing an alternate take which is theirs. They created a unique world and their efforts are no different than all those different renditions of Batman or the X-Men. They might not be original creators but they did create this and therefore it is theirs.

Nether is without merit and they are both justifiable and valid perceptions. There is no 'one's BS and the other is word of god' in this one.

The plot is what separates DmC from the DMCs. Since the plot was made by NT, that makes it mainly their game (though I agree Capcom has rights to the game as well).
Why? The plot is not so crucial that would give creative ownership. Why does the plot been different become the factor that makes the games separate. There are other aspects of the game that NT did that would be more crucial to the game that one could argue really makes it a NT game far more than a Capcom game, like the art direction, or the characters.

In this case I will argue that if in fact the game is more NT than Capcom it's because of more than just plot differences and more because of the many differences the game has from it previous titles.

If I was certain that NT had done enough alterations from the previous titles to make it that different from a Capcom game I would certainly give it to NT but I'm not. I don't know how much influence Capcom had with the game's final outcome. For example, I know the tremendously changed design of Dante was Capcom's idea but the short black hair and skinny design was NTs, but that one was one that NT didn't really put up there seriously, just one that Capcom liked. Then when that was all sorted out the new design was shown and Capcom made plenty of alterations to the new product, like not making him skinny and making the coat much longer. After all that who do you really give the credit for the final product to? You say NT, I say I don't know.

The gameplay can be the same throughout all known time for all I care, but as soon as the plot is made by someone other than Capcom, and they give their blessing, that makes it those people's game, not Capcom's (for the most part).
Like I said, I don't think I can agree with this just on that solace. To simply give the game up to NT just because of the plot is not a strong enough argument for me. People are hired to write all the time but they don't always get to say the final product is theirs. A Steven Spielberg film is a Spielberg film, even if he didn't write the script or even if he wasn't the one that made the alterations from the original story, case and point, Jurassic Park.

Like I said, Castlevania (or whichever game) does not belong to the person who happened to come up with its core gameplay concepts. If that were the case, almost every game in existence would belong to people who are long dead, retired or otherwise.

In this case I'll argue otherwise because unlike DmC as far as I know MercurySteam didn't have as much guidance from Konami as NT did from Capcom. DmC was a much more blended collaboration where as Lords of Shadow, as far as I know, was all MercurySteam with some Konami financing. DmC was a very thigh collaboration, not just NT with Capcom financing.

How much freedom Capcom allowed is what would determine the answer for me and from what I understand they didn't just say 'go at it,' they were very controlling in some areas and very liberal in others and since I don't know how much of each there was I won't simply give it up to NT.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
I am not talking about legal issue when creating something, so why your mumbling about that ...is beyond me. I am simply telling you...Burrough is creative owner of Disney Tarzan because Disney Tarzan is a version of his Tarzan. Tarzan that he came up with through a process of creative thinking.

Perhaps if NTDante had no similarity with original Dante other than name then it would be appropriate to give creative ownership of that character to NT. But that's not the case.

Likes Pizza
Rebellion
Ebony and Ivory
White hair
Likes to joke around
Devil trigger/demon form
Has an amulet
coat
Has a twin brother named Vergil
Has a father named Sparda
Has a mother named Eva

could you remind me who came up with all of this for character named Dante? Was it NT? It must be when your giving them creative ownership of NTDante to NT even though most of the stuff by NTDante is similar to original Dante (or tries to).



Yes, Burroughs is the creative owner of Tarzan the Apeman - the original. However, Disney is the sole creative owner of the Tarzan they created. Disney's Tarzan is a version of the original, but it is very apparently not the original. It follows so little of the original book. This also works for The Little Mermaid, Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin...the list goes on.

So again, you're wrong.

All this same sh!t applies to Devil May Cry and Ninja Theory's DmC. It does not matter in any way, shape, or form where certain ideas came from, because some sort of creative process still took place to formulate the completely new universe that DmC takes place in.

I repeat, IT DOES NOT MATTER at all who came up with the original concepts that may have been used. It does not matter what you believe, that is the truth. That is how the world works. Seriously.

And I "mumbled" about legal issues because in the end, the one who owns the property is the one that can make claims over it.
 

IncarnatedDemon

Well-known Member


Yes, Burroughs is the creative owner of Tarzan the Apeman - the original. However, Disney is the sole creative owner of the Tarzan they created. Disney's Tarzan is a version of the original, but it is very apparently not the original. It follows so little of the original book. This also works for The Little Mermaid, Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin...the list goes on.

So again, you're wrong.

All this same sh!t applies to Devil May Cry and Ninja Theory's DmC. It does not matter in any way, shape, or form where certain ideas came from, because some sort of creative process still took place to formulate the completely new universe that DmC takes place in.

I repeat, IT DOES NOT MATTER at all who came up with the original concepts that may have been used. It does not matter what you believe, that is the truth. That is how the world works. Seriously.

And I "mumbled" about legal issues because in the end, the one who owns the property is the one that can make claims over it.
Your opinion is different from mine. I don't see a version of a original character, especially a very similar one, as a creation of the person who made the version but the person who made the original. Your basically making slight changes to the character, and that's pretty light job compared to the job of creating a character.

That is something you seem to not understand and keep telling me about legal rights as if it has anything to do with discussion of who's creative owners of something. We're not talking about who owns the right of reboot, because even a one brain celled person would know thats capcom.

I disagree with your opinion, and no need to go on with this. We can do friendly talk some other time.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
Your opinion is different from mine.

It's not an opinion, it's how the world works.

That is something you seem to not understand and keep telling me about legal rights as if it has anything to do with discussion of who's creative owners of something.


It has everything to do with ownership. The legality of it is one part of determining ownership, as being the owner gives you the right to protect that property from infringement. The other part that determines ownership? Being the people who f#cking made the property.

Give it up IncaDemo, for the love of gunblades, take it from someone who actually has to deal with intellectual property ownership. I know these things because I own intellectual property of my own. I know how this stuff works.
 

IncarnatedDemon

Well-known Member
If you knew what you were talking about, you would have realized that what i have been saying has nothing to do with intellectual property.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
If you knew what you were talking about, you would have realized that what i have been saying has nothing to do with intellectual property.


Yeah, because...

ush1.png


...this isn't you arguing the semantics of who owns the intellectual property that is DmC, and then arguing with Chancey about developing and inventing, and bullsh!tting about how since Capcom created the original concepts Ninja Theory has no rights over anything regarding DmC.

"Intellectual Property" is a fancy term that encompasses conception, development, and ownership of something, so this has a lot to do with intellectual property. So...uh...wrong again.
 

IncarnatedDemon

Well-known Member
In that post i was talking about intellectual poperty yes, but i went on from there to talking about creative ownership. And i did not say that NT did not own anything.
But it is not soley on basis of this that i say it's capcom's game. It is also because the gameplay was not invented nor standarized by NT but capcom.

DMC has always been for most part about the gameplay. It was the biggest thing with DMC. And the reboot was no different. However, the reboot aimed at making a better story but it did not go back on the primary goal of DMC.
So you can't possibly call DmC NT's game when taking into consideration:
  1. What DMC is primarily about: gameplay
  2. Capcom invented and standarized the gameplay
  3. Capcom oversaw reboot project, taught and assisted NT with the gameplay


Sorry, but intellectual property may encompass that from a business perspective but from a real perspective it does not.

capcom created dmc1 by action, but reality is it was Team Little Devils lead by Hideki Kamiya who developed the game, not the corporate heads who said "Do it".
And thats what i have been talking about, not the corporate side of something being created.
 
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