How can this combat system be expanded?

[Foxtrot94]

When it comes to the combat system, every chapter of the series added something new to the table, building on the basis of the previous titles, innovating and expanding.
We know that, even if DMC2 didn't meet everyone's expectations, it still introduced some cool elements that were later taken and brought into DMC3, creating one of the deepest mechanics at the time. DMC4 built on that adding even more things, some through Nero and some through Dante himself.
However, it's also true that, even though DMC4's combat system is averall well deeper and extensive than DMC3 (and the deepest in the franchise), it took away some things from it, like the missed crazy combos, and the number of usable weapons.

So, in a next DMC title, how would you expand on DMC4's system, keeping what's already there? Here are my suggestions:

1 - Bring back the crazy combos. I want Wild Stomp back! And Free Ride. Free Ride, Capcom!

2 - Keep Dante's ability to carry 3 weapons per type (melee and ranged) at the same time, but give him more to choose from.

3 - If Nero has to keep being a playable character, protagonist or not, give him at least 1 Style, maybe guns centered. Also, talking about guns, do what you did with DmC: there, you took Nero's Charge Shot 3 and basically turned it into Kablooey, with its ability to detonate the shot later. Make Charge Shot 3's explosion be manually detonable too. This way the right trigger on the gamepad can be used for something now, btw.

4 - Make Dante's DT activation act as a cancel too, like Nero.

Nothing else comes to my mind right now. Your turn to speak now then, I guess!

EDIT:
5 - Friggin' free camera! You did it in Bloody Palace after all, so do it in the regular game as well.

 

[V's patron]

Once Chancey talked about Nero having a melee system so i think if we were to give Nero a style I 'd rather he have a melee based style as it helps him stand out from Dante/Vergil.

 

[Chancey289]

-Let me have access to all the weapons like the latest Devil May Cry.
-Chain and whip like weapons
-A crafting system to upgrade weapons for personal combo potential
-Use a hybrid of everything instead of styles. I was never the biggest fan of those things.

Once Chancey talked about Nero having a melee system so i think if we were to give Nero a style I 'd rather he have a melee based style as it helps him stand out from Dante/Vergil.

Yea, I always thought building Nero's combat around his arm (ala God Hand) would have been better. Actually give diversity to the selection instead of him being just discount Dante. Give him a haircut too. He doesn't need to look like Dante.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@Chancey289 especially dig that crafting idea. What exactly do you have in mind?

 

[Chancey289]

@Chancey289 especially dig that crafting idea. What exactly do you have in mind?

Like customizing particular firearms to have certain abilities.

Let me just spit ball here a hypothetical example, like imagine the ability to customize the grenade launcher or Kablooey where they can fire multiple shots in multiple directions or turn the stickeys in to land mines. So you can add more diversity to individual playstyles. Allow experimentation and for people to get original with the different customizable combinations.

You can even somehow find a way to incorporate this in to melee weapons like swords. Somehow I guess. I liked the comparison GregaMan made about Devil May Cry being like playing an instrument. We all learn how to play it, but people will also mess around and play their way. Have their own style. As a musician myself, I can agree.

 

[Judge]

Take out styles like DmC did. Make every move in the game usuable without having to switch styles.

Switching styles disrupts the flow of the battle and creates a delay between the time the player can enter the next move from having to switched to that style from the last move.

What I want is all the moves you can possible have without disrupting the flow of combat. A lot like what Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 does very well. A lot like what DmC does very well. Theres no style switching, you go straight to the move you want. Styles are superflious; in DmC, Dante can be in Swordmaster, Royal Guard, Trickster and Gunslinger all at the same time. Your never limited to playing at one style at one time. All styles all the time. Thats what I think DmC did very well at. The only thing it missed was that it didn't contain all the style moves from previous games.

The thing I want from DMC2 is Chrono Heart Devil Trigger. DmC's Devil Trigger had a brief pause between the time the player can input the last move from having switched into Devil Trigger. What I want is an instintaneous Devil Trigger.

What I don't want is to press Devil Trigger and for every enemy to enter time dilation. I want DMC2's time dilation, where the enemy is dilated only when it is hit. So enemies that are not hit are still moving at normal speed. This keeps the pace of the combat continuously moving and it dosen't make the Devil Trigger a one hit win button, which is what DmC did.

DMC3 got this wrong with Quicksilver, which also worked as a one hit win button. It didn't require the player to use skill to manipulate enemies through time dilation, it became a one hit win button. I think thats what DMC2 did very well in comparison to other games.

 

[Foxtrot94]

No I would never take out Styles. That would kill the number of possible combos thus decreasing the fun factor and limiting your creativity, as well as increasing repetitiveness. I didn't like that in DmC and I don't want that to be here too (now don't jump at my throat, DmC fans, I enjoyed DmC's combat overall).
Also,with training, switching Styles becomes natural and once your fingers become quick enough, there's no flow break. And being able to achieve that is one of the things that differentiate the high level player from the average one.
Without mentioning that the advanced techniques possible with Styles would simply disappear without them, like Guard Fly or Star Rave. Advanced techniques that in fact, you simply cannot pull off in DmC for example, right because there's no Style system.
Style switching is one of the reasons why DMC4's combat system is so deep and rewardingly skill based, and this thread is supposed to contain suggestion on how to EXPAND on it, not stripping features from it decreasing the depth. I'm ok with implementing something from DmC of course, I mentioned two things that came to my mind in the OP, but if we have to, let's implement those that add depth, not decrease it.
However, I would like people posting here to come up with their original ideas instead of just mention things from other games of the franchise. I mean, of course do it if you want but I would also like to hear people's own ideas, I heard some good ones back when the DMC4 SE thread was created.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

Expand the styles to level 5 allowing new style specific moves , bring back wall run and allow DMC2's flips and acrobatics while in trickster , bring back a vortex style move and allow the use of two styles at one and bring back the trickster triple ground dash which could be made a quaddruple dash in level 5 trickster in base while keeping the infinite dash in dt. lastly allow 5 or 6 devil arms of which you can choose 3 for loadout in the pause menu

Apart from that keep everything from 4 but give nero at leastsome darkslayer abilities

 

[HandsomePeanut]

5 - Friggin' free camera! You did it in Bloody Palace after all, so do it in the regular game as well.

Any and all credibility I might have disappears right now.

I actually wouldn't care to see this part go. There's something about it that I just like, though I'm finding it a bit hard to pin words to exactly why. The word cinematic comes to mind but I wouldn't say that's the reason.

That said, if in a hypothetical DMC5 it was gone, I would understand why. The series has to survive and to survive it needs to modernize and innovate. The modern market, for the most part, thinks that fixed cameras are clunky and unintuitive (and they're not wrong: it's not right, it's not wrong, it's just different is a saying I think this fandom could do well with taking to heart). If that's what the series has to do, it's what it has to do. And it's not like my world would collapse if they disappeared; the Earth would continue to spin, the sun would still rise and set, and the moon will still be their.

I'd also like it if they kept styles. Foxtrot sums up my opinions on that subject quite nicely.

Otherwise, this thread has a lot of great suggestions. Keep going guys.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@ef9 o shea wouldn't you think that quadruple dashes would be pretty lame? I mean, the player might spam them all the time to avoid enemy attacks, kinda like it happens in DMC3. Dante's already got infinite dashes while in DT anyway, so...

 

[Innsmouth]

I actually wouldn't care to see this part go. There's something about it that I just like, though I'm finding it a bit hard to pin words to exactly why. The word cinematic comes to mind but I wouldn't say that's the reason.

There is middleground on that. In LoS2 you can control camera, but in certain scenes it moves on it's own making panoramic views, and adding that cinematic feel you talking about

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

@ef9 o shea wouldn't you think that quadruple dashes would be pretty lame? I mean, the player might spam them all the time to avoid enemy attacks, kinda like it happens in DMC3. Dante's already got infinite dashes while in DT anyway, so...

No as you could use it in tandem with stinger or other moves to blitz enemies from all around them and look stylish , it is what i would do nobody has to agree lol

 

[DragonMaster2010]

• I say do more with Crazy combos. ad inverse rainstorm, wild stomp, add nunchuck weapons again, and even have Dante do some new moves like actual gun kata like Bayonetta or Noel Vermillion from Blazblue.
• A free camera is a must.
• get rid of Nero. If they don't, at least give him two more weapons to use besides gun and sword. Maybe a customized muzzleloarder that has a flair of authenticity to it.
• Dual shotguns wouldn't hurt
• An option to change the in game music to more then "the time has come". Maybe a few other in house songs.

 

[Goldsickle]

"Styles" only existed t0 regulate Dante's large arsenal on a gamepad controller that has limited buttons.

If they are able to transcend the limits of the gamepad and enable players to access Dante's arsenal without some sort of "mode change", they should.

It was right of them to remove/cut down on crazy combos from DMC4 onwards.
That and cutting down on button-mashing in general.
There was a huge difference between playing DMC4 & Bayonetta.
I'm always more relaxed when playing DMC4 but Bayonetta always makes me feel strained and tense, due to how button-mashing plays a huge role in its gameplay.

 

[Innsmouth]

Styles existed as strategic decision as to put player under pressure of choice and add depth into new playthroughs. DMC4 made best decision by adding ability to change them on the flaw, but not scrapping them. That's part of reason why DMC3 system was so good in the first place.

 

[Veloran]

More weapon options for Dante and Nero. Nero should have less than Dante, for obvious reasons, but more choice on his end might be nice. In fact, maybe give Nero the option of Summoned Swords outside of his DT as his other "gun". Perhaps even add one secondary style, giving him another utility ability with the Devil Bringer outside of his grabs. Dante's style system should be expanded upon, gaining back lost moves from DMC3 and adding more. A return of Quicksilver/Doppelganger/Dark Slayer type secondary style could also be interesting, but not a must.

To expand on Nero's moveset, perhaps they could give him Dante's old crazy combo system? It wouldn't quite fit the older Dante as well as his DMC3 incarnation, but for Nero it would be perfect. He already incorporates it slightly with Red Queen Combo B, as well as the augmentations you can do to his Buster by mashing. Also, they desperately need to give him a shop upgrade to increase the speed at which Charge Shot, you know, charges. It's a bit uncomfortable at the moment.

DMC4's combat system is already damn-near perfect, so ideally the only changes to be made would be minor quality of life tweaks to how some moves are executed or what properties they have. The phrase of the day here is really just "expand and polish".

 

[Innsmouth]

Now that we talking about Nero, how about giving him souls to infuse with his arm and make it gain new abilities (maybe a little prototype style)

 

[Veloran]

Now that we talking about Nero, how about giving him souls to infuse with his arm and make it gain new abilities (maybe a little prototype style)

How do you mean?

 

[Innsmouth]

How do you mean?

I thought about something like it was in Prototype but making them more like astral projection. Just like he gains grapple ability, maybe add something that may transform his arm into new weapon like forms and make it gain new functions. It may differ him and Dante, where dante keeps devil arms Nero gets arm upgrades

 

[Veloran]

I thought about something like it was in Prototype but making them more like astral projection. Just like he gains grapple ability, maybe add something that may transform his arm into new weapon like forms and make it gain new functions. It may differ him and Dante, where dante keeps devil arms Nero gets arm upgrades

Eh, maybe. But it sort of becomes an issue of how to map it. Each alternate form would effectively have to be a style, but taking too much focus off of his basic Buster might mean the developers take less time to flesh out it's counters during boss battles.

Though, perhaps this could be offset the alternate "modes" of his arm to also have their own unique counters. Say, if a boss is stunned in one way it would be vulnerable to the Buster, but if it's stunned in another it would be vulnerable to a blade or claw. Or maybe rather than stun states, it could be a factor of countering the right thing with the right tool.

In fact, that's exactly what it should be. Like in the Wonderful 101, you can reflect lasers with the sword morph, and blunt attack with Unite Guts. Nero's different arm forms could be capable of countering different types of attacks. I like it.