Dmc dante vs DMC3 vergil

[CheeseKao]

And there are many demons in DMC who killed to exact their justice right? Name some for me.

And a quote from me:
"You can believe what you want to believe, and i will believe what i want to believe, but until you provide a convincing argument, your belief is wrong to me".

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my point
Your head

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Really? I challenged your point, and now you attack me for having a belief. Didn't you just tell me "dont push your belief on others", now your pushing yours on me?

How about reading what i said:
You can believe what you want to believe, and i will believe what i want to believe, but until you provide a convincing argument, your belief is wrong to me


So i asked you, name couple demons that killed humans to exact justice.

 

[CheeseKao]

Really? I challenged your point, and now you attack me for having a belief. Didn't you just tell me "dont push your belief on others", now your pushing yours on me?

1. All I gave was an example at how different people can have different interpretations of the same subject matter. What I said was merely an example of such and does not pertain to the subject in which you and TwoXAcross were discussing about.

2. All I said(implied) in my previous post was that you missed my point. How you perceived that as an attack is beyond me but whatever floats your boat.

3. I pushed nothing.

 

[Chancey289]

I don't get this. hurr durr.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

1. All I gave was an example at how different people can have different interpretations of the same subject matter. What I said was merely an example of such and does not pertain to the subject in which you and TwoXAcross were discussing about.

2. All I said(implied) in my previous post was that you missed my point. How you perceived that as an attack is beyond me but whatever floats your boat.

3. I pushed nothing.

1. By quoting me your implied i was pushing my opinion on others.
2. I perceive it as a attack because you say it in a condecending way. And i won't understand your point by ">>>> point, your head>>>". But yet you didnt bother with explaining it.

3. Really, your specifically quoting me, and giving me a lecture about "difference of opinion" when there are two people discussing a topic. And by doing that your implying i can't understand that people have difference opinion.
A discussion is a clash of two difference opinion, you telling me that "Well dont push your opinion on others" when i am discussing my belief, is just you pushing your own agenda.

 

[Chancey289]

Is she for real?

 

[CheeseKao]

1. By quoting me your implied i was pushing my opinion on others.
2. I perceive it as a attack because you say it in a condecending way. And i won't understand your point by ">>>> point, your head>>>". But yet you didnt bother with explaining it.

3. Really, your specifically quoting me, and giving me a lecture about "difference of opinion" when there are two people discussing a topic. And by doing that your implying i can't understand that people have difference opinion.
A discussion is a clash of two difference opinion, you telling me that "Well dont push your opinion on others" when i am discussing my belief, is just you pushing your own agenda.

1. So you inferred that by me merely quoting you and not through the content of my post?

2. Tighten up those bolts and grease those gears then.

3. If you had actually read my post, that statement of mine was an advice targeted at the general populace, not you specifically. Whether or not you want to accept that advice or whether or not you are already aware of it is irrelevant to me. Besides, a few sentences hardly qualifies as a lecture but eh *shrugs*.

I'll be leaving this discussion now as it nothing productive will come out of this seeing as to how you haven't changed at all.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

IncaDemo, seriously. You can believe whatever the hell you want, just as anyone else can, and you can even think that others' beliefs are "wrong" to you. However, you are not allowed to come into a discussion and challenge others' beliefs with nothing to support your side other than "I think you're wrong." That just makes you an undeniably unpleasant person to have in a discussion. Now I realize why having discussions with you sometimes leaves a sour taste in my mouth :/ you're way too rooted in your own opinions and unwilling to actually listen, even when you're given many new, convincing elements to consider.

You have a lot of extremely biased and shallow ideas of certain things. Like this stuff with "justice." I even outlined it before you went on your opinionated tirade. It was an example, just like loyalty, of something that is not a strictly human trait...

You want an example of a demon who values justice? Bolverk in DMC2...

Bolverk is a skeletal demon warrior who is driven to seek revenge against Sparda's heir. Interestingly, Bolverk's eye sockets are unevenly sized.

Or, how 'bout someone much more prominent? Beowulf the Lightbeast in DMC3...?

Gatekeeper sealed away by Sparda for 2000 years. He anxiously awaits his chance at revenge.

There's also the brothers Baul and Modeus from the anime, and even Mundus himself wanted revenge against Sparda's family. Revenge, also known as vengeance, retribution, just desserts, etc, is a very basic and violent form of "justice," because it's seeking retribution for wrongs done to the self or others. Justice is all about righting wrongs, making things even. However, revenge isn't necessarily about killing, its a means to an end, I can get revenge on a guy who stole my car by getting him arrested. By getting even.

Sparda "waking up to justice" could easily be seen as Sparda helping the humans exact revenge on the demons that oppressed them, and didn't give them a fair chance to live.

If demons cared about justice, they wouldn't be power seeking killers.

What gives you that impression? We've gone to war and shed blood in the name of holy and just causes. We have people sitting in Death Row cells awaiting execution for crimes they committed, crimes we seek justice for. We have clans all over the world locked in blood feuds with each other over century-old sleights. Killing someone for a wrong they committed is one of the oldest (and completely barbaric IMO) forms of justice our world has. Many people also "seek power" as well; in their relationships, in their business, or even to control themselves.

And we're the humans, we're supposed to be the good guys. Remember what Mary said about "humans can be just as evil."

However, again, I must really stress that...

THERE IS NO REASON TO EVEN BE DISCUSSING THIS AS IT DOES NOT PERTAIN TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD​

IncaDemo, if you wanna continue debating crap like this, take it to a new thread yourself, otherwise, please oh please, just hush up so we can get back on track :/

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

1. So you inferred that by me merely quoting you and not through the content of my post?

2. Tighten up those bolts and grease those gears then.

3. If you had actually read my post, that statement of mine was and advice targeted at the general populace, not you specifically. Whether or not you want to accept that advice or whether or not you are already aware of it is irrelevant to me. Besides, a few sentences hardly qualifies as a lecture but eh *shrugs*.

I'm in a good mood today so I'll put up with your bipity bops for the moment.

1. Quoting me and quoting someone else gives different meanings.
2. ...
3. What's point of a general advice of "people have different beliefs dont push yours on others", are you implying i was doing that? I was discussing with TwoAcross.
So because i am discussing something, i am pushing my opinion on others.

lecture or whatever u call it, u did what u did.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

To put simply, "justice" is not necessarily about doing what is good, or right, it's about making things even. Words like good and right are wholly subjective - I could punch someone in the face for them being a little sh!t, and I'd feel like I'm morally justified, but that doesn't mean others will share my sentiment. Some would they weren't being a little sh!t, others might say that I could have talked to them instead of using such force.

Society's definition of "justice" being tied to morality and goodness is simply a construct we've devised.

However, not all places in this very world even share the same idea of what justice is - women in the middle-east get killed by their families for being raped, because it brings dishonor to the family. These "honor killings," as they're called, are denounced by many other nations of the world, but within the region they exist, many still find them perfectly and morally just.

Okay, now I'm done :x Back on topic.

 

[CheeseKao]

1. Quoting me and quoting someone else gives different meanings.
2. ...
3. What's point of a general advice of "people have different beliefs dont push yours on others", are you implying i was doing that? I was discussing with TwoAcross.
So because i am discussing something, i am pushing my opinion on others.

lecture or whatever u call it, u did what u did.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my point
Your head, again.

Good night sir.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

 

[Demi-fiend]

So far the only draw back is that Nephilim themselves are an affront to those rigid ancient boundaries set in place, and that apparently makes people angry.

While being half-demon in the classics, Dante's true power lied in embracing both his demonic and human sides. Apparently having humanity made Dante potential to surpass his full-blooded demon father, but...I dunno exactly how that's supposed to work >_< It really starts to get into that "power of loooooove~" sorta feel-good juju Japan likes to use as part of the tenacious spirit the hero has.

So, neither theory really "works".

Figures. I just really wanted each species to have a "weakness" so that they could overcome it despite the odds against them. In DmC, I really don't feel an element of danger when put in that perspective. Even Mundus stopped being a threat once the hell gate was closed.

Maybe the whole point is that the only threat to one Nephilim is another (Vergil)? Maybe they all finished each other off and the demons only "helped out" a little. Maybe Phineas was omitting a few facts.

Regardless, I really would like to see a decent tradeoff that makes sense in both universes. Now, it's just more convoluted, imho.

Because maybe Dante was still missing part of what makes him powerful...? Dante hadn't yet embraced his demonic side. The point that made Dante so powerful in the end was embracing both sides of himself. However, when they first fought, Dante was still a fledgling in a lot of ways, still growing, while Vergil (at the time) was farther ahead in "power."

It's like...Dante is able to go to Level 100 (Demon gives 50, Human gives 50), while Vergil is only able to go to Level 50, because he doesn't care about his Humanity (-50 levels, bdowwwmmm~). When Vergil and Dante first fought, Dante could have been Level 25, while the victorious Vergil may have been, like, Level 40. However, by the end, Vergil could be his max Level 50, but Dante, as the victor, has surpassed him with Level 50+whatever.

The numbers themselves are rather arbitrary, but it's the point of showing the variations of potential and growth >_<

Ok, this helped. It was just like that time when you explained all those plot holes in DmC. Kudos.

And a quote from me:
"You can believe what you want to believe, and i will believe what i want to believe, but until you provide a convincing argument, your belief is wrong to me".

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/i_know_what_i_believe-i_will_continue_to/339631.html
“I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe - I believe what I believe is right.”

 

[Demi-fiend]

I forgot to add...

Dante spoke of love.
Love is what defines humanity. And with love comes hope.

This is so silly and sappy that I almost puked on my keyboard.

Agree with this... :ermm:

Taste the rainbow.

 

[Frost]

Sooooo... to get this thread back on topic, I will offer my opinion to the question presented in the poll.

It's quite obvious that Vergil from DMC3 would beat the living crap out of DmC Dante in a matter of seconds. Vergil is disciplined, strong and determinated while Dante is rash, arrogant, untrained and ignorant. At the end of DmC Dante definitely embraces his powers, takes responsibility for his actions and finds a purpose. This new Dante would beat Vergil, I'm sure, but if we look at these characters in a way they were presented in the beginning (and for the most part) of these games, then he wouldn't have time to blink before being torn to shreds.

 

[wallenb]

DmCDante defeated 5 or 6 bosses while Virgil helped in one boss battle. if you're looking at who's better from there track record Dante still wins.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Sooooo... to get this thread back on topic, I will offer my opinion to the question presented in the poll.

It's quite obvious that Vergil from DMC3 would beat the living crap out of DmC Dante in a matter of seconds. Vergil is disciplined, strong and determinated while Dante is rash, arrogant, untrained and ignorant. At the end of DmC Dante definitely embraces his powers, takes responsibility for his actions and finds a purpose. This new Dante would beat Vergil, I'm sure, but if we look at these characters in a way they were presented in the beginning (and for the most part) of these games, then he wouldn't have time to blink before being torn to shreds.

Usually these things take the character from endgame, or just thereabouts.

The bigger question is how much does discipline or arrogance/ignorance influence things?

Dante is by no means untrained, he's been fighting demons since his childhood days, he may have a "raw" and unorthodox style of combat, but he's survived as long as he has because of it. Plus, they're both "strong," and there's been the mention of Dante punching very large things with his bare hands. Not sure how he's ignorant, either. He may be ignorant of others plights, but he seems pretty knowledgeable when it comes to fighting - he's a quick learner regarding mistakes and circumstances (the first encounter with Drekavac), and finds creative ways to use the tools at his disposal (pretty much anytime using Ophion).

However, more importantly, you're going to have to give justifications for why a certain element of the character contributes to their victory or defeat. You say Vergil is "discipline, strong, and determined," but why are these positive traits that will help him? Likewise, why are Dante's rashness, arrogance, and ignorance negative qualities that will hinder him?

Yah gotta explain yo'self! Show your work, class!

 

[Frost]

Usually these things take the character from endgame, or just thereabouts.

The bigger question is how much does discipline or arrogance/ignorance influence things?

Dante is by no means untrained, he's been fighting demons since his childhood days, he may have a "raw" and unorthodox style of combat, but he's survived as long as he has because of it. Plus, they're both "strong," and there's been the mention of Dante punching very large things with his bare hands. Not sure how he's ignorant, either. He may be ignorant of others plights, but he seems pretty knowledgeable when it comes to fighting - he's a quick learner regarding mistakes and circumstances (the first encounter with Drekavac), and finds creative ways to use the tools at his disposal (pretty much anytime using Ophion).

However, more importantly, you're going to have to give justifications for why a certain element of the character contributes to their victory or defeat. You say Vergil is "discipline, strong, and determined," but why are these positive traits that will help him? Likewise, why are Dante's rashness, arrogance, and ignorance negative qualities that will hinder him?

Yah gotta explain yo'self! Show your work, class!

Well, if we take the characters from the endgame, then we all just have to agree that Dante wins. He always outclasses his brother by the end.

Anyway, by saying "untrained" I meant that his combat style is very unrefined and rash while Vergil's style is very precise, strategic and effective. I would think that difference easily works in Vergil's favor. Dante wouldn't be able to keep up with his subtle and intricate moves while he just dashes in trying to lob off his head. And he's pretty ignorant about the workings of the demon world and his own powers. He doesn't seem to care much, he just kills everything that comes his way without giving it a second thought. Vergil has been living amongst the demons his whole life, and certainly knows more about them. Surely he's been through much tougher times than Dante in his early life. He has embraced his demonic power, while Dante has rejected it.

Attitude can also make a big difference in determining who wins in a battle. A person who only goes in for the kill can't stand a chance against someone who is calm and collected and carefully reads his every move. A skillful user of a blade easily dispatches an opponent who just attacks blindly. Also, someone who is single-mindedly determined to achieve a goal definitely outmatches someone who fights without any higher purpose.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

We could easily argue that while Dante's style is unrefined, it's obviously very effective, considering everything he has triumphed over. Precision is nice, but what's not to say Dante isn't precise? He squarely hits whatever he intends to, and has the reaction time and dexterity that it would require. If you watch how he fights and moves, Dante is sloppy only in places where precision doesn't quite matter. The final hit of Hacker (his basic combo) has him stumble slightly, but look at all the points where he moves acrobatically, there's still quite a bit of finesse there.

Also, let's not forget that Dante loves to fight. For him to be pitted against Vergil for the sake of this encounter, that's all it is; a duel, really Dante is in his element when he's in the thick of a fight.

But ultimately, how much does mentality account for something like this? It's not like a battle in their respective games, like in DMC3 Dante knowing he needs to stop his brother because...his...soul is...screaming *ahem* There's no animosity to this battle, just...two dude's fighting.

 

[Stylish Nero]

DmCDante defeated 5 or 6 bosses while Virgil helped in one boss battle. if you're looking at who's better from there track record Dante still wins.

Well considering that Vergil wasn't a playable character that account sounds a bit redundant and one must assess how Dante defeated said boss and they're level of power or challenge.

Vergil may have only defeated one high ranking demon on his own (Beowulf) versus Dante who did in 6 demons (although one was an unborn infant and the other a floating head with an obvious weak spot as well as an immobile giant slug who wasn't made for fighting as well Mundus who was weakened and even had help from Vergil) where as with Beowulf was a fully grown demon who was at his full power is fully capable of movement and Vergil still finished him off in one clean slice in a second using only precision and blinding speed (who lets not forget gave Dante troubles in his fight against him).

Beowulf<<<<<<Bob, Spawn, Hunter, and Succubus

If Vergil can pwn those 4 the same way he pwned Beowulf.....and Dante.

He even finished off the Hell Vanguard in one clean blind strike.

He even defeated Dante before his power up meaning he could defeat any enemy Dante has fought prior to his fight (Cerberus and Agni and Rudra).