Dmc dante vs DMC3 vergil

[TWOxACROSS]

If Vergil embracing his human side was holding him back, then why did Dante who embraced it loose so badly to Vergil first time they fought?

Probably because of the fact that they were not on the same level then. Vergil had already awakened, whereas that defeat was the catalyst for Dante's awakening (oh sh!t title drop!!!1!!11one!!eleven).

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Probably because of the fact that they were not on the same level then. Vergil had already awakened, whereas that defeat was the catalyst for Dante's awakening (oh sh!t title drop!!!1!!11one!!eleven).

But didn´t you just say that embracing your human side would grant you more power, and that it was more potent? So why was Dante weaker than Vergil at that time then?

 

[darkslayer13]

Eh, that's tenacity for you, though. It's like that "fighting for others" spirit that Japan loves so much.

It's just worth mentioning (since this is the DmC Dante vs DMC3 Vergil thread) that while the classic Sons of Sparda are equal in terms of potential power, Vergil is nowhere near where Dante has ever been, because he unknowingly limited himself.

they have equal potential but Vergil did seem to have developed his power more or at least he learned how to use it more. Vergil's knowledge of how to use his power in DMC3 was more than Dante has shown even decades later. of course none of that power and skill made a difference since Vergil rejected his human half but it is worth mentioning.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

But didn´t you just say that embracing your human side would grant you more power, and that it was more potent? So why was Dante weaker than Vergil at that time then?

Because maybe Dante was still missing part of what makes him powerful...? Dante hadn't yet embraced his demonic side. The point that made Dante so powerful in the end was embracing both sides of himself. However, when they first fought, Dante was still a fledgling in a lot of ways, still growing, while Vergil (at the time) was farther ahead in "power."

It's like...Dante is able to go to Level 100 (Demon gives 50, Human gives 50), while Vergil is only able to go to Level 50, because he doesn't care about his Humanity (-50 levels, bdowwwmmm~). When Vergil and Dante first fought, Dante could have been Level 25, while the victorious Vergil may have been, like, Level 40. However, by the end, Vergil could be his max Level 50, but Dante, as the victor, has surpassed him with Level 50+whatever.

The numbers themselves are rather arbitrary, but it's the point of showing the variations of potential and growth >.<

 

[TWOxACROSS]

they have equal potential but Vergil did seem to have developed his power more or at least he learned how to use it more. Vergil's knowledge of how to use his power in DMC3 was more than Dante has shown even decades later. of course none of that power and skill made a difference since Vergil rejected his human half but it is worth mentioning.

Of course, Dante's a slacker

Take a look at what the twins are doing at the start of DMC3 - Dante's kicking back and eating pizza, while Vergil is hanging out in libraries.

I think Dante just prefers to be surprised by every encounter, instead of taking the time to do research on his enemies That does sorta seem like him; "Where's the fun in that?"

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Because maybe Dante was still missing part of what makes him powerful...? Dante hadn't yet embraced his demonic side. The point that made Dante so powerful in the end was embracing both sides of himself. However, when they first fought, Dante was still a fledgling in a lot of ways, still growing, while Vergil (at the time) was farther ahead in "power."

It's like...Dante is able to go to Level 100 (Demon gives 50, Human gives 50), while Vergil is only able to go to Level 50, because he doesn't care about his Humanity (-50 levels, bdowwwmmm~). When Vergil and Dante first fought, Dante could have been Level 25, while the victorious Vergil may have been, like, Level 40. However, by the end, Vergil could be his max Level 50, but Dante, as the victor, has surpassed him with Level 50+whatever.

The numbers themselves are rather arbitrary, but it's the point of showing the variations of potential and growth >_<

I don't know what you saw, but aside from Dante never gave up (human side) , his regeneration, speed and strength all came from his demon side.
And thats what made him more powerful.

There is nothing by humanity's power that would be beneficial to power increase. Hope that Dante possessed because he embraced his human side was not a tool to become stronger. It's a tool to not give up.
In the end he became stronger because of Devil trigger, which was from his demon side not his human.

And he defeated Vergil because of hope and awakening his demonic powers. He didnt become stronger because of human side.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

You're not getting what I'm saying.

I'm not expressly saying that humanity grants more power. Dante's humanity and tenacity to fight for hope and such acts as a sort of key, unlocking way more power. The fighting spirit, or never-give-up tenacity Dante possesses from his human side is what allows him to break past the limits of a normal demon (or even half-demon).

That's why Dante preaches the importance of humanity, while physically weaker (maybe, Lady sure calls that into question a little), they have near-limitless potential. Demons constantly underestimate humanity (even Vergil did so), so when they constantly are beaten down by a "half-demon," they're confused as to why, because they see him being so much more inferior. Despite their view of Dante being inferior for being only half-demon, and also being half another inferior race, they are consistently trounced because Dante's humanity is just as, if not more, important than his demonic side.

Anyway...I need to be getting back to this preview I should have had done yesterday. Later, taters.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Dante is son of Sparda, a demon general, who defeated Mundus and his soldiers.
Are you sure that Dante is as strong as he is when compared to full demons, because he is half demon, or because he is son of a very strong demon?

Anyway, your opinion is that Vergil is holding himself back by not embracing power. That if he had embraced his human side his power would skyrocket or go up significantly.

My opinion is that, Vergil would barely go up more in power if he did such thing.
That he's not losing his potential to grow stronger just because he doesn't want to embrace humanity.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well, remember that there was the previously discussed aspect that parentage doesn't automatically mean you're going to have all your parent's traits. Eg; the son of an acrobatic master could have a horrible center of balance, just as the son of a man with a horrible sense of balance could end up as acrobatic master.

Genetics is a funny thing

As for your opinion, that's your opinion, of course, but considering that both Sons of Sparda are supposedly equal, it means that if Vergil had embraced his humanity like Dante had, then Vergil would surpass his father the way his brother has.

And like I said, the series often preaches how important humanity is, and how demons specifically lose because they lack humanity/heart (and everything that comes with it), even for all the power they do possess.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

I know what the serie has preached. And again, Vergil died after DMC 3, and was dead when DMC 2 started.

So how can a dead person surpass his father? Because Vergil never got to live as long as Dante, so how can you conclude that Vergil didn't become as strong as Dante in DMC 2 because Dante did what Vergil didn't (embrace...).
Again, Vergil is dead.

I am positive Vergil would have surpassed his father even without love. He is his father's son.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

You're really not getting me...

I'm saying, since they are twins, and have equally matched potential, Vergil has all the same potential as Dante. The catch is that 1) Vergil denounced his humanity, and 2) he's dead, so it's not really possible for him to live up to that potential. However, Dante, the carbon copy twin of Vergil, is alive, and did embrace his humanity.

For all intents and purposes, Dante is an example of what Vergil could have become if not for death and ignorance.

I'd also disagree with Vergil surpassing Sparda (if not for his death), because the whole point of being able to surpass Sparda was that Dante had something he didn't - humanity and compassion. If Vergil doesn't embrace that one thing that Sparda doesn't have, there's not much hope for him to do so.

Although, this is all neither here nor there, Vergil's potential beyond DMC3 isn't going to help this discussion, and it's really moot anyway.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Is this your interpretation or is there something in DMC serie that states you must have compassion for humans to be able to surpass your father?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It'd most likely be the fact that Dante is the only one to have surpassed Sparda, and he had something that Sparda did not possess. Then there's all the preaching Dante does about how important humanity is, especially talking to Agnus about why the Order of the Sword became demons and still ended up losing - because they gave up their hearts, their humanity, their...human juju magumbo.

It's not quite just an interpretation, because there's all the talk about humanity being so important, and a lot of it comes from the most powerful character in DMC - Dante, a man who is both half-demon and half-human, a man who embraced both halves of his self.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

You don't know if Sparda had humanity in him or not. He may have gained it.
In beginning of DMC 1 Trish did not care about Dante.

But she changed.
Kinda contradicting though compared to DMC 4 demons. Even Griffon showed a virtueous quality (loyalty?).

Humanity is something humans possess but is it possible that a demon can gain it? Trish did, didn't she?
But perhaps Trish did because she was a demon in human body.

But you dont know if Sparda did not show human trait of love and compassion, because why would Sparda save the human world if he had no compassion towards the humans?
I really don't think that in order for Vergil to become stronger he must embrace his human side.

The way i interpreted humanity in DMC is that even though humans are weak, they possess love which makes them hope for a better day, and hope makes us adapt and never give up.
That's what Dante said in DMC 1 to Trish, and to Lucia in DMC 2.

"We humans never give up"
"Tears is a gift that humans possess"
"Devils dont cry"

 

[Chancey289]

Dante spoke of love. In DMC 4 he did not speak of physical or supernatural abilities.
Love is what defines humanity. And with love comes hope.

Hope pushes you to your limits. You adapt, you endure more etc.

If Vergil embracing his human side was holding him back, then why did Dante who embraced it lose so badly to Vergil first time they fought?


Dante fought for a better cause, it was better because he fought with love.
He had not only become equal to Vergil in power, he also had a burning fire of love within him for his brother and strangers (humans).

This is so silly and sappy that I almost puked on my keyboard.

I'm sorry. Just saying. It's the way you worded it.

 

[Chancey289]

You don't know if Sparda had humanity in him or not. He may have gained it.
In beginning of DMC 1 Trish did not care about Dante.

But she changed.
Kinda contradicting though compared to DMC 4 demons. Even Griffon showed a virtueous quality (loyalty?).

Humanity is something humans possess but is it possible that a demon can gain it? Trish did, didn't she?
But perhaps Trish did because she was a demon in human body.

But you dont know if Sparda did not show human trait of love and compassion, because why would Sparda save the human world if he had no compassion towards the humans?
I really don't think that in order for Vergil to become stronger he must embrace his human side.

The way i interpreted humanity in DMC is that even though humans are weak, they possess love which makes them hope for a better day, and hope makes us adapt and never give up.
That's what Dante said in DMC 1 to Trish, and to Lucia in DMC 2.

"We humans never give up"
"Tears is a gift that humans possess"
"Devils dont cry"

People in DMC don't know what the f#ck they are talking about half the time.

Sparda is a demon through and through. So is Trish. They don't magically become human. Do you know why this series is called Devil May Cry?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Yeah, see, we know Sparda doesn't have humanity because he's a demon. Humanity means the condition of being human, and the aspect of human nature.

Demons can obviously be loyal, because well...they revere kings - Mundus is the king of demons. However, that's not a "human-like" quality, as even a dog can have unerring loyalty to its master. Hell, even primates and wolves are loyal to the leader of their groups. Demons even understand and express certain values, like brotherhood, friendship, and love...

Sparda himself "woke up to justice," but what does that even mean? Hell seems to have it's own semblance of the term what with exacting revenge on their fallen comrades and such, as vengeance is a very absolute and basic form of "justice." The thing is, demons just felt humans were unequal to them, so they oppressed them. Sparda disagreed with demonic justice (where humans had no rights), and really instead "woke up to human justice," disagreeing with the oppression of the humans. FACT: SPARDA IS ABE LINCOLN!

Loyalty, justice, love; these aren't things specific to humans. It's the faith and hope, like you keep going on about, that seem to be expressly human traits, and the tenacity, or...whatever. The thing that really sorta makes demons different is that they value power...like...a lot. Like, more than anything. The entire demon heirarchy is based on how much power one has. Humans, on the other hand, know they are weak and fragile, but they have also have faith and hope, which allows them to persevere. It's possible a demon could maybe understand these things, but so far, none have really shown to do so. Sparda is the only true-blooded demon that did something different from other demons...

Also, both Trish and χ (Lucia) were constructs made by others from demonic magic, but made to look and be human for deceptive purposes. It's entirely possible that they acquire some of the traits of humanity - what they were modeled after her. They aren't really demons, per se, but they are of demonic origin.

However, let's remember that at the end of DMC1, it was proclaimed that "devils never cry," and to cry means that you aren't a devil. What that means though, I dunno...compassion, maybe. Compassion seems above all else to be the most important thing in the series. Even with DmC Dante no longer being a human, he learned compassion for them.

Maybe that's the point of DMC, just compassion, and the capacity of one to feel it?

However, again What the hell is the point of this? It's off-topic and not conducive to the discussion. Can we maybe stop talking about crap that doesn't matter...?

 

[CheeseKao]

All I see is conjecture everywhere. The games really doesn't thoroughly explain these kinds of things and I believe there is no right or wrong here(besides the obvious ones).

 

[TWOxACROSS]

That's ultimately what it comes down to a lot of the time, yeah

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Arkham was a human.

Like Mary:
But now i realize that there are humans as evil as any devil as well as kind and compassionate demons in this universe.

You dont know whether Sparda gained humanity or not. It sounds weird if a demon who usually are cold and ruthless, would then betray his own kind to save humans.
That is compassion, isn't it...? Saving humans.

If demons cared about justice, they wouldn't be power seeking killers.

 

[CheeseKao]

If demons cared about justice, they wouldn't be power seeking killers.

I can also say that some demons seek power and are willing to kill in order to exact their justice. This is like the chicken or the egg situation.

"Believe in what you believe in but don't push y beliefs onto other people."~general statement by moi.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

I can also say that some demons seek power and are willing to kill in order to exact their justice. This is like the chicken or the egg situation.

"Believe in what you believe in but don't push y beliefs onto other people."~general statement by moi.

And there are many demons in DMC who killed to exact their justice right? Name some for me.

And a quote from me:
"You can believe what you want to believe, and i will believe what i want to believe, but until you provide a convincing argument, your belief is wrong to me".