What does NT think when they look at us completing the game?

[IncarnatedDemon]

Regarding your post, yes, because consumers thinking they know more about the project than the people who are making it is just plain wrong. We don't own the project, we own the end result. Fans might help a franchise grow, but they still don't own any part of it, and it's greedy and childish to think otherwise.

The amount of vitriol that went around because of DmC shows a lot of this behavior among the DMC consumers, because they thought they knew everything about the game, even before its release, where they rightfully could not say how it would all turn out :/

People might not like what was or wasn't done, but no one knows more about the direction of the development of a project more than the people who are actually working on it.

How DMC consumers behaved is irelevant to them being greedy. For most part people were angry at the reboot, they weren't angry because the reboot didn't have this, that and that.
And i'd argue DmC wouldn't been as successful as it was to the same degree if DMC fans had no influence on the development (e.g complaints, consttructive critism etc).

But again do you have any basis or evidence backing up your assertion that consumers or DMC consumers in particular are greedy?

Because my perception of DMC fans has not been that they are greedy. What makes them greedy? Asking for manual lock as option? Hoping for Taunts? or Turbomode?

Isn't these things that the users ask for supposed to be covered? Since the product is aimed at them?

If you ask me, DmC is a unfinished game. They had 4 games as foundation to shape DmC.
To understand what should be there and what shouldn't.

DmC not having 60 fps is ok, as that's a compromiss
DmC not having taunt doesnt make it unfinished either
But DmC not having option manual lock on
or Bloody Palace for Vergil

In my opinion these two not being in the game makes it unfinished considering they could have done them both.

Capcom said they wanted a 9+ score for DmC and ONE of the greatest DMC titles:

Combine all the best elements of Capcom and Ninja Theory you will have one of the greatest DMC titles ever created... and that people is what we're working towards.​

Lets be honest they were great games (averageing [sic] in the low 80's on metacritic) but not perfect. We're now aiming to make the perfect DMC game that gets 90's.​

http://www.dealspwn.com/capcom-shooting-perfect-devil-cry-game-52465


DmC isn't worthy of a 9 score.
8.5 sure (and thats me being soft on the game)

9? No.

 

[Dusk Stalker]

How DMC consumers behaved is irelevant to them being greedy. For most part people were angry at the reboot, they weren't angry because the reboot didn't have this, that and that.
And i'd argue DmC wouldn't been as successful as it was to the same degree if DMC fans had no influence on the development (e.g complaints, consttructive critism etc).

But again do you have any basis or evidence backing up your assertion that consumers or DMC consumers in particular are greedy?

Because my perception of DMC fans has not been that they are greedy. What makes them greedy? Asking for manual lock as option? Hoping for Taunts? or Turbomode?

Isn't these things that the users ask for supposed to be covered? Since the product is aimed at them?

If you ask me, DmC is a unfinished game. They had 4 games as foundation to shape DmC.
To understand what should be there and what shouldn't.

DmC not having 60 fps is ok, as that's a compromiss
DmC not having taunt doesnt make it unfinished either
But DmC not having option manual lock on
or Bloody Palace for Vergil

In my opinion these two not being in the game makes it unfinished considering they could have done them both.

Capcom said they wanted a 9+ score for DmC and ONE of the greatest DMC titles:

http://www.dealspwn.com/capcom-shooting-perfect-devil-cry-game-52465


DmC isn't worthy of a 9 score.
8.5 sure (and thats me being soft on the game)

9? No.

Those are guys thinking with their emotion ignoring the cons and just saying "Nope, 9/10", rather then having a balanced score and seeing the positives and negatives...That's about 97% of the reviews(Excluding MetaCritic, for reasons....)

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Those are guys thinking with their emotion ignoring the cons and just saying "Nope, 9/10", rather then having a balanced score and seeing the positives and negatives...That's about 97% of the reviews(Excluding MetaCritic, for reasons....)

Indeed, which is why i think those sites should call their reviews from now on for "User Experience Review".

Refering to how they perceived the game rather than how the game is in reality.

 

[EvilX-81]

Wasn't the reason they stuck with Unreal was because of also all the environmental manipulation they wanted to do? At least I think I read that somewhere.

Though if the reason they were unable to include the stuff ppl are modding into the game is because of the engine, well that's obviously not true because of said modders. And with the game selling bad, Capcom (and NT?) probably wanted to cut ties as soon as possible in order to not lose money further.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Wasn't the reason they stuck with Unreal was because of also all the environmental manipulation they wanted to do? At least I think I read that somewhere.

Though if the reason they were unable to include the stuff ppl are modding into the game is because of the engine, well that's obviously not true because of said modders. And with the game selling bad, Capcom (and NT?) probably wanted to cut ties as soon as possible in order to not lose money further.

From what I've heard Unreal, despite it being less powerful than other proprietary engines, gives the developer a lot of freedom and customization. I don't know much about that side of things, but that's always something that I've heard about Unreal, that the reason people love using it is because it's user-friendly and can be modified heavily for what the developer wants.

 

[Romy]

I normally agree with you Romy, but this kind of reasoning always baffles me. I've gotten plenty of enjoyment out of the game as it was designed. Modding is just a PC thing; I mean Skyrim has a million mods that make it better doesn't mean the original game or developer are worse for it. Secondly, most modders including me aren't doing any sort of rocket science, its just manipulating existing functions and values already in the game. The game is the way it is because that's how NT tested and designed it at the time of release. I'm happy that on PC we have been able to unlock some of the other functions, such as turbo mode, and the colored weapons damage enemies, but the reason I think turbo was removed is that it actually doesn't work that well with the animations. I agree it could have been a reward to unlock once you beat son of Sparda or one of the other difficulty modes. I also think official mod support like implementation in the steam workshop would be much appreciated.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the game and enjoy it on so many levels without the mods. But you just can't shake the feeling that it's not completed. Turbo mode, putting Vergil in BP are just a few exchanged lines in the .ini files that were discovered by the players. Which makes me think that NT could've done that in the blink of an eye.

I also read that some people think I, and others with the same opinion, are greedy. How so? I didn't demand anything. I was just wondering and curious. Because I'd be damned if the game wouldn't sell much more with Vergil in BP, Turbo mode, taunts and other similar engine modifications that are originally missing.

 

[OppressedWriter]

It all comes down to Capcom and what they want from Ninja theory literally cannot just update the game as they please, besides at least on consoles, every update costs a nice chunk of money, because of console manufacturer fees, I think its like 25000-50000 dollars for a patch per system on consoles. It's free on PC, but they usually don't just release patches for one platform.

As a general thing though, I agree with some of what you're saying, and I am 100% positive there will be some special edition with all these features down the line, that's how Capcom operates.

 

[Demi-fiend]

snip

I hope so. There needs to be an "Ultra Edition" with all the mods you developed. :3

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the game and enjoy it on so many levels without the mods. But you just can't shake the feeling that it's not completed. Turbo mode, putting Vergil in BP are just a few exchanged lines in the .ini files that were discovered by the players. Which makes me think that NT could've done that in the blink of an eye.

You also have to remember that replacing those lines of code didn't make them perfect. The Turbo Mode mod is awesome, but it speeds up the entire game, like he cutscenes, right? And it also turns itself off sometimes, too. Vergil in BP also isn't completely perfect either.

NT totally could have done several things, sure, because they're the developers who made the game in the first place, but these things just weren't on their list of priorities. It doesn't matter how badly we want them, it just wasn't on the docket.

I don't feel it's incomplete because it is complete. If it was incomplete, those lines of code would be much more compatible, wouldn't they? Missing things we want =/= incomplete

I also read that some people think I, and others with the same opinion, are greedy. How so? I didn't demand anything. I was just wondering and curious. Because I'd be damned if the game wouldn't sell much more with Vergil in BP, Turbo mode, taunts and other similar engine modifications that are originally missing.

I was addressing IncarnatedDemon and the positing of consumers thinking they know more about a game's development than the developers. "Greedy" might not be the right word, maybe more "selfish," I guess, because it's a very "I want this, I don't want this, change this" that was going around before the game even came out. It doesn't matter how certain implementations may have helped or hindered the project - wanting more, and wanting it a certain way, when the product isn't even out yet to know how it all turns out is just...really childish. Even worse when people started complaining about free DLC, or not wanting to pay for Vergil's Downfall even though getting that free unlock was incentive to support the game on release.

I don't mean any slight on an individual, just the the vitriolic behavior that went around before release, and that's very common with consumers today.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Everyone knew what they wanted with the gameplay. It's that simple.

After playing Darksiders 1, i learned what i wanted. The game had flaws.
There was only three difficulty, easy, normal and hard (apoclyptic).

After you finished game you had to move from location to location to respawn monsters to face. And not only that, they were spread out across the big stages and not many of them. On top of that they died so fast when you used ChaosEater or a fully maximized weapon.
What made it worse was that there was enchancements for the weapons that made you kill more faster, but what was point of it if the enemies died in few hits?

If people ask for content that should be there, it doesn't make them greedy or selfish. When your aiming to make a perfect DMC game, you should listen to the people who have played your game.
At least the content that has become a standard in DMC.

 

[Romy]

You also have to remember that replacing those lines of code didn't make them perfect. The Turbo Mode mod is awesome, but it speeds up the entire game, like he cutscenes, right? And it also turns itself off sometimes, too. Vergil in BP also isn't completely perfect either.

If the mods were perfect, I'd start talking **** about NT, for sure. Not one mod is perfect and it never will be because it's not an original part of the game. I'd be damned if they were perfect, we wouldn't need the whole game. We'd just need a shell of DMC and the rest could be made by us. But since that's not the case and players can easily manipulate the game engine, it's not far to stretch out the fact that NT was, in fact, a little bit lazy.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Everyone knew what they wanted with the gameplay. It's that simple.

After playing Darksiders 1, i learned what i wanted. The game had flaws.
There was only three difficulty, easy, normal and hard (apoclyptic).

After you finished game you had to move from location to location to respawn monsters to face. And not only that, they were spread out across the big stages and not many of them. On top of that they died so fast when you used ChaosEater or a fully maximized weapon.
What made it worse was that there was enchancements for the weapons that made you kill more faster, but what was point of it if the enemies died in few hits?

If people ask for content that should be there, it doesn't make them greedy or selfish. When your aiming to make a perfect DMC game, you should listen to the people who have played your game.
At least the content that has become a standard in DMC.

You know that Darksiders isn't all about fighting stylishly like in DMC games, right? It's a dungeon-crawler adventure game like Zelda with a good combo system. You're not supposed to spend a lot of time fighting the enemies; you're supposed to kill 'em quickly, move on, solve puzzles, and repeat to see the end of the story.

And asking for content is a little different when it's done before the game's release. Especially when a lot of the stuff people whined about the inclusion of goes against the entire design philosophy behind the game, eg "make the game harder!" directly conflicts with the entire aim of making the game easier to be more accessible. Turbo Mode is not a big deal, the game plays fine with out it, Vergil having his own Bloody Palace would be nice, but it's not necessary for the enjoyment of Vergil's Downfall, given that it achieves the intended goal of telling a story of his descent into villainy and letting us play as Vergil.

It's like going to some sandwich shop where the guy declares that he's only making ham and swiss cheese sandwiches that day, and then people bitching about how it should be turkey instead of ham, and pepperjack instead of swiss. He's not doing that, he's making a f#cking ham and swiss! If you don't like it, then come back when he's making something you want.

NT told you us their aim with DmC, and disregarding pure marketing BS about "da bess DMC evar" they achieved their specific goal. Like it or lump it, you have no right to complain about how they achieved their goal, and make demands about what you think those goals should have been.

 

[Demi-fiend]

But since that's not the case and players can easily manipulate the game engine, it's not far to stretch out the fact that NT was, in fact, a little bit lazy.

Ok. They were lazy.

But all that is over and done with. We need to move ahead and make changes of our own. Counterstrike was a Half-Life mod, and it was one of the most successful spin-offs ever in the competitive shooter market.

Not saying that we have to make an all-new game, or that it's even possible, but we should just keep going and see how far we can push this thing.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

If the mods were perfect, I'd start talking **** about NT, for sure. Not one mod is perfect and it never will be because it's not an original part of the game. I'd be damned if they were perfect, we wouldn't need the whole game. We'd just need a shell of DMC and the rest could be made by us. But since that's not the case and players can easily manipulate the game engine, it's not far to stretch out the fact that NT was, in fact, a little bit lazy.

Lack of secondary features =/= lazy development.

This exact conversation has crept up before - just because they didn't implement something extra for funzies doesn't mean they couldn't or were just too lazy to. They just didn't, and it wasn't part of the main development plan.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

You know that Darksiders isn't all about fighting stylishly like in DMC games, right? It's a dungeon-crawler adventure game like Zelda with a good combo system. You're not supposed to spend a lot of time fighting the enemies; you're supposed to kill 'em quickly, move on, solve puzzles, and repeat to see the end of the story.

S: Some of the mechanics feel comparable to Devil May Cry or Castlevania: Lord of Shadows. What games inspired you?

BC: Well, we definitely played every combat game. It doesn’t matter if it’s considered the best game of all time or the worst game of all time. We play ‘em all. Obviously, we had the Zelda inspiration with the puzzles and stuff. But for combat, we are huge DMC and Bayonetta fans.

We didn’t want to re-create DMC and Bayonetta, but we wanted to re-create the feeling of open-ended combat; allow players to come up with their own combos and be creative. In the first game, that was a little lacking. The fans spoke, and we decided to go in a new direction.

 

[LysseC]

Turbo Mode is not a big deal, the game plays fine with out it, Vergil having his own Bloody Palace would be nice, but it's not necessary for the enjoyment of Vergil's Downfall, given that it achieves the intended goal of telling a story of his descent into villainy and letting us play as Vergil.

I still think that not including Bloody Palace in Vergil's Downfall was quite the loss, because, even if the dlc focused more on telling Vergil's story, it also made having Vergil as a playable character one of its strong points and central features. So, not putting in it a BP for Vergil is something in which VD is lacking imo.
I enjoyed it, but I would have enjoyed it MUCH more if BP was put into it.

That being said, I agree with you when you say that they were not lazy, just not included BP in their plans. What I am questioning, though, is the opportunity of making such a choice. If I were NT, I would have planned to put BP in VD (unless there were some other considerations that I do not know of, in which case I may very well restate what I just said).

 

[Romy]

Ok. They were lazy.

But all that is over and done with. We need to move ahead and make changes of our own. Counterstrike was a Half-Life mod, and it was one of the most successful spin-offs ever in the competitive shooter market.

Not saying that we have to make an all-new game, or that it's even possible, but we should just keep going and see how far we can push this thing.

It was over the moment we realized what's missing. But I still made the topic at hand because I'm interested in the lack of content and the reason behind it.

Imagine if Counterstrike was actually made by the developers.

 

[Demi-fiend]

It was over the moment we realized what's missing. But I still made the topic at hand because I'm interested in the lack of content and the reason behind it.

Imagine if Counterstrike was actually made by the developers.

Well, I don't think we'll ever find out the true reason it was missing.

It's like me trying to find out the identity of certain voice actors -- it can't be done because of union contracts forbidding them from revealing themselves.

And that analogy made no damn sense. >_<

But like you said, the most likely reason was... laziness. They were pressed for time, sure, but like you said, they could have easily fixed those other problems.

However, they did release a patch to nerf demon dodge. And like I said before, VD was much more difficult, there were no color-coded enemies, and one of the dodge buttons was an offensive move.

It means that they at least listened to the fans at least a little bit. The rest was just time-restraints and NT not thinking about Turbo Mode.

And laziness. :ermm:

Edit:

Well, there are other games like Counter-Strike out there from professional developers -- so we really don't have to imagine one being made since it's already more-or-less been done.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Your point being? This all happened well after Darksider's release. The developer also agreed with what the fans were saying. DmC had a specific design philosophy NT was aiming for, and "fans" were trying to change it into something it wasn't trying to be.

It'd be like if someone told Vigil games that the gunplay wasn't good enough in Darksiders, and that they should just totally flesh that out to turn it into a shooter - that's not what Vigil wanted to do.

Tameem even talked about something to this regard in reference to creative bankruptcy. Listen to what others want too much and it compromises the original vision the product was based upon. When people clamor for "fixes" to things that aren't broken, and that directly contradict the intended design philosophy, it's best to ignore them, because no one knows your project and the minute details of the intended vision other than the people working on it.

I still think that not including Bloody Palace in Vergil's Downfall was quite the loss, because, even if the dlc focused more on telling Vergil's story, it also made having Vergil as a playable character one of its strong points and central features. So, not putting in it a BP for Vergil is something in which VD is lacking imo.
I enjoyed it, but I would have enjoyed it MUCH more if BP was put into it.

That being said, I agree with you when you say that they were not lazy, just not included BP in their plans. What I am questioning, though, is the opportunity of making such a choice. If I were NT, I would have planned to put BP in VD (unless there were some other considerations that I do not know of, in which case I may very well restate what I just said).

Oh of course. There not being a Bloody Palace for Vergil sucks, but it's not like it ruins the game, it's just unfortunately a missed opportunity.

When it comes to inside the studio, there's a lot of stuff that goes on we just don't know about. Capcom may have just only funded NT for making what we have of DmC and VD, which means they can't continue developing content, because if they don't have the funding for it, they can't pay the workers.

I doubt "laziness" was ever a factor in the exclusion of some features, especially with time and money constraints being part of any development process, and the entire possibility that they just didn't think it was necessary for the enjoyment of the game.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Darksiders is a hack and slash. When your killing enemies without even trying on hardest difficulty, then there is a big issue right there.
If Darksiders was meant to be a game where you just go throgh game and thats it, then why give it combo depth? How can you do big combos when the enemies your fighting dies like chickens.
I fail to see how i am asking Vigil games to change Darksider drastically just because i think the lack of difficulty is bad and should be improved. Constructive critism.
That´s actually what they did too with Darksiders 2, it brought Nightmare difficulty.
They also added Crucible i.e Bloody Palace which was another complaint of mine.

When your releasing a Bloody Palace as a separate content from main game and you call it free DLC (which is bs considering BP is a standard in DMC),
Then how can you miss BP for Vergil, at very least making Vergil playable for Dante´s BP?
I don´t think it´s a missed opptunity.
And i am talking about Capcom not NT.


What Tameem said about creative bankruptcy applies mostly for new ips or a reboot´s story and characters. It has little application to DmC´s gameplay. When NT was put on task to create DMC gameplay they were tutored, superviced and even aided in the gameplay department.
It was nothing new, the gameplay they were going to produce had been established.
And honestly developers not listening to fans are fools. Because fans provide HUGE constructive critism.